New build feedback

[Matt516]

 

 

 

 

 

 

AoE increase actually does give something to Fighters, Barbarians and Monks as they all have at least one AoE ability. But AoE does not give them that much. Range gives them pretty much nothing.

So limited AoE is OK, but fighting with bows is out of the question? If I'm not mistaken BB Fgihter has an Arbalest. WTF are you talking about?

He's saying that Fighters have crappy base Ranged Accuracy, therefore Ranged is really not a good option for them. Which is true. You can build a ranged Fighter, but it's going to be inferior to a ranged Ranger pretty much every time. The Fighter class is designed for the front.

 

That said, I still don't think PER is a bad option for Fighters - even though Range is a bad stat for them, Accuracy makes up for that. So IMO the design goals do not fail in that instance.

Actually, might want to check out character creation in the latest patch as they've either accidentally forgotten to give ranged and melee accuracy or they rolled it all into one stat thus normalizing the baseline accuracy the classes get. That aside i'd still give the arbalest to my Rogue right now.

 

I'm just happy the combat log is finally starting to make sense. I did kind of suspect last patch that armors had some sort of DT % reduction due to lore on mobs. Still, would it be too much to ask to not have 1 handed weapons *not* totally suck .

1st part: Hmm. That would be odd. Not sure if I'd like seeing those two split up, though I can understand why they'd do it I suppose. EDIT: Actually I might like that. Will have to think on it. Would be good to know if it's intentional or a bug.

 

2nd part: The % reduction actually doesn't hurt 1H weapons at all. It doesn't favor any weapon persay. The flat reduction is what really kills you.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Matt516

[aeonsim]

 

 

AoE increase actually does give something to Fighters, Barbarians and Monks as they all have at least one AoE ability. But AoE does not give them that much. Range gives them pretty much nothing.

It gives them a bonus when using ranged weapons. Just because ranged weapons are underpowered, it does not mean it is nothing.

 

 

It's not about ranged weapons' power, it's about the inherent Accuracy boni and abilities Fighters get (or don't get in the case of ranged). The Fighter class is not designed to do well with ranged weapons - therefore counting "Range" as a good combat stat for Fighters is silly. Again though, the argument is moot because not every stat attached to every attribute has to be useful for every class - just every attribute as a whole. Range is bad for Fighters, but Accuracy makes up for it. Why are we still talking about this?

 

 

Good point.

 

Another thing to note is that the range bonus is useful if your fighter is hurt badly enough that you need to pull them from the front line while you finish the fight or push on through the last couple of fights before resting. It should allow you to move your fighter well away from the enemy while still attacking with ranged weapons, now it'll decrease your DPS from when the fighter was in the front line using it's fav weapon, but that doesn't make it useless it just is a case that you've spent so much of your fighters health that if you want to use them still your going to have to treat them as though they're a squishy little ranged person.

 

Also the additional range may allow another ranged shot before an enemy reaches melee range, as such an additional free attack with out a chance of damage has some value especially if equipped with the right ranged weapon.

[Matt516]

With the speed people run and the recovery and reload times, no way you're ever getting an extra shot against a closing enemy even at max range.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

First impressions in character creation is Race and Culture play an important part even more now with min-maxing your attributes. I can see some races and cultures I wouldn't touch if I was taking out a specific class.

[Hormalakh]

Here's a quick way to make range matter for a fighter: as your range bonus increases, the distance that the engaged enemy has to move to disengage increases.  That means that enemies who are further away are likely to be engaged in AoO with improved ranges, making kiting less possible. There. Range is now important for fighters.

 

Or I could just say "everything is **** and only I know the right way to make this game." :eyeroll:

Edited September 26, 2014 by Hormalakh

[archangel979]

 

 

AoE increase actually does give something to Fighters, Barbarians and Monks as they all have at least one AoE ability. But AoE does not give them that much. Range gives them pretty much nothing.

So limited AoE is OK, but fighting with bows is out of the question? If I'm not mistaken BB Fgihter has an Arbalest. WTF are you talking about?

 

 

He's saying that Fighters have crappy base Ranged Accuracy, therefore Ranged is really not a good option for them. Which is true. You can build a ranged Fighter, but it's going to be inferior to a ranged Ranger pretty much every time. The Fighter class is designed for the front.

 

That said, I still don't think PER is a bad option for Fighters - even though Range is a bad stat for them, Accuracy makes up for that. So IMO the design goals do not fail in that instance.

 

It is also not designed for AoE attacks. So what? You or Sensuki still have not proved that AoE bonus for fighters is better then Range bonus.

[archangel979]

 

It gives them a bonus when using ranged weapons. Just because ranged weapons are underpowered, it does not mean it is nothing.

Dude, stop arguing for the sake of it. Monks do not do ranged, because they NEED to be attacked to get wounds. Melee will be better for them 99% of the time. Fighters also are required to draw aggro, they don't really have anything that gives them range. Barbarians are the same.

 

Range is awful, you need to be close to your other party members to be in the AoE buff ranges anyway. It's like the tackiest bonus ever (and if you read the patch notes, it's actually not working yet). It does nothing to help balance Perception against Might.

 

It's one of those "thrown in for the sake of it" things.

 

And you stop looking at current changes through your own suggestion that was not accepted as is. You are sure it is superior and will now argue to hell and back because of it. Personally I like the current changes, increased range were suggested by people and it was a good suggestion. I don't care if it is super useful for all classes, it is useful for most classes. The game does not need to have perfect mathematical balance.

Edited September 26, 2014 by archangel979

[Sensuki]

Your definition of "good enough" is not the same as mine. I am going to continue to rally for improved attributes.

 

I'm also making our system into a mod. Should be done soon

Edited September 26, 2014 by Sensuki

[archangel979]

Your definition of "good enough" is not the same as mine. I am going to continue to rally for improved attributes.

Have fun.

[BlueLion]

Much better combat responsiveness. I feel like my actions are actually taking place rather than glitching or happening 'behind the scenes'.

[PrimeJunta]

Your definition of "good enough" is not the same as mine. I am going to continue to rally for improved attributes.

 

I'm also making our system into a mod. Should be done soon

 

Tactical suggestion.

 

IMO it's better to identify the currently most pressing problem, or at most top three problems, and push for change on those. The attribute system appears to be a big improvement over the previous ones, which may mean that it should no longer figure in that top three list even if it's not "good enough" by whatever criteria.

 

I.e, I would suggest using your formidable lobbying power on whatever is now the most pressing concern, even if the areas where you pushed previously were not addressed exactly as you had hoped. You can always return to them later as they rise in priority when the other things are being addressed.

[Sensuki]

That is what I will be doing, however it was just the particular discussion in the thread. I think range is absolute garbage.

 

There are more pressing matters AND I can mod in my own attribute system anyway - working on it right now actually.

 

There appears to be a lot of nasty bugs in this new build. I think targeting reticles is the next main thing needed for combat.

 

A quick play of the Dyrford Crossing tested out the new Health system and yep, it's better. However I lament the loss of the famous "Beatle" encounter on Hard, that NEEDS to be added back in.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Sensuki

[MasterPrudent]

Much better combat responsiveness. I feel like my actions are actually taking place rather than glitching or happening 'behind the scenes'.

Yes. So many little things that just make it feel so much better. The way paused characters turn towards their targets once you select them, the way the special attacks' icons now appear on the characters' HUD to tell you what they're doing next (although it doesn't seem to be implemented for all abilities yet), the highlights on selected enemies, the engagement lines, the sprays of blood to indicate hits...

 

It just feels soooo much better.

Edited September 26, 2014 by MasterPrudent

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Never really looked at skills before but now that I'm going over it, there is a lot of doubling up which makes it a pointless exercise in some cases.

 

If you're not taking a Rogue, the starting companions are:

 

BB Rogue has the highest in Stealth - 5 and Mechanics - 6

BB Fighter has the highest Athletics - 6

BB Priest has the highest Survival - 3

BB Wizard has the highest Lore - 8

 

I've picked my class as the Cipher and pumped Lore (7) which makes the BB Wizard nearly obsolete. When I do level up my Cipher, it will make the BB Wizard skill obsolete.

I've bought a Druid from the inn and what do I pump? Survival? Okay, Druid now has survival (5) which makes the Priest's survival skill obsolete.

 

There are going to be companions that have doubled up and I'll be allocating points to characters (like the priest) knowing another companion (druid) has a higher points total in that skill.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[frapillo80]

I haven't had the time to try the build yet (and thanks again, Hiro), but I'd like a thing that was spinning since a bit: does Resolve influence negative durations as well? Not a big deal, just out of curiosity.

 

P.S. From what I'm reading the new improvements sound awesome.

Edited September 26, 2014 by frapillo80

[MasterPrudent]

I've picked my class as the Cipher and pumped Lore (7) which makes the BB Wizard nearly obsolete. When I do level up my Cipher, it will make the BB Wizard skill obsolete.

I've bought a Druid from the inn and what do I pump? Survival? Okay, Druid now has survival (5) which makes the Priest's survival skill obsolete.

 

There are going to be companions that have doubled up and I'll be allocating points to characters (like the priest) knowing another companion (druid) has a higher points total in that skill.

Skills have individual, not group, benefits. For example if a character has high survival it makes potions' effects last longer for them but has no effect on what benefits the rest of the party gain from drinking potions. For the most part one character having a high score in a skill does not make another character's skills obsolete. (Lore may be something of an exception, I'm not sure having high lore on lots of characters would speed up codex information gain by a significant factor.)

Edited September 26, 2014 by MasterPrudent

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Skills have individual, not group, benefits. For example if a character has high survival it makes potions' effects last longer for them but has no effect on what benefits the rest of the party gain from drinking potions. For the most part one character having a high score in a skill does not make another character's skills obsolete. (Lore may be something of an exception, I'm not sure having high lore on lots of characters would speed up codex information gain by a significant factor.)

 

Certain tasks do make them obsolete. For example lock picking. Why would you have a second character have a high mechanics skill? Also, if a task asks you to send a character to do something, like cross a ravine with a grappling hook and rope you send the one with the highest skill and the rest of your party follows automatically. 

 

There's also no way I'm going to put points in Mechanics for my Cipher when my Rogue already does a good job at that. Stealth or Athletics? Maybe. But I'd rather put points in skills like Lore because that opens up dialogue options. Does mechanics or stealth open dialogue options? No? Then it's better to give those skills to an NPC.

 

And if I'm pumping points in Lore to open up dialogue options, then what is my BB Wizard going to do? The game doesn't recognise lore in dialogue options with my BB Wizard or any companion. The game's dialogue only goes off your main character. So I'd rather spend points on skills for my main character to open those dialogue options, not on skills that don't. Which is why I would give those skills like mechanics to a NPC rogue.

 

It also doesn't get around the fact that my BB Priest skills are ALL worthless now in my current party. Every other character has higher points in EVERY skill than the BB Priest.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Captain Shrek]

The attribute rebalance sounds really great. I would be grateful if they:

 

1) Paced down the combat

 

2) Changed might to STR like stat and moved magic damage to INT or RES. That will make it more intuitive.

 

3) Reduced the trash encounters or even better removed them completely. This actually seems doable. I am sure players will only welcome side quests instead. In SP RPG content is king. Trash is the rake.

[Captain Shrek]

Also is it completely impossible to drop the double health pool? I still can not figure out what it contributes to the game beyond adding an unnecessary health bar.

[Headbomb]

 

I absolutely HATE the new mouse over highlighting, is there any way we can turn that off ? Why the hell was that added in, it's totally unnecessary ...

 

(Edit: Well actually if it was changed so that it only showed when using certain actions that would be better, all the time is overkill)

I do agree that it's a bit jarring at first, especially to a player expecting an IE game experience. We've internally talked about possibly making it a combat only feature, which I think is reasonable. So far from my experience the highlights help a lot when trying to pick out a character in chaotic combat situations, and works wonders with AOE placement.

 

 

For what it's worth, I love it. Making the character circle pulse instead could be a good alternative however. But overall, having feedback when you highlight the plants, characters and other interactables is soooooo much yes. Don't change how AoEs highlight stuff. Combat arrows are awesome. Keep those too.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Headbomb

[Sensuki]

Plants and interactables is fine (I prefer an outline to a shader), but the shader over characters when moused over is just over the top, not to mention completely immersion breaking.

 

I completely understand that sort of thing being used for attack, ability and spell cursors and AoEs but absolutely not for simple mousing over.

 

The game needs IE style targeting reticles that show up when you mouse over a unit and when you have the unit selected - that is the easiest way to show who is attacking who.

 

Engagement is different because you can engage multiple people at once.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Sensuki

[Hiro Protagonist II]

I should clarify with my posts above. Characters like My BB Priest's and BB Wizards skills are all worthless in the context of 'tasks'. if I have to do a task, my character (Cipher) or other companions can do those tasks without the help of the BB Wizard or BB Priest. Also, Mechanics, Stealth and Lore seem to be dump skills for characters like the BB Wizard and BB Priest in my party and the only good skills are Athletics (counters fatigue) and possibly Survival (longer duration of things like potions). However, since the BB Wizard and BB Priest are usually ranged characters due to their low health compared to other characters (due to the new health mechanic) and not really front line fighters, they probably won't be chugging potions all the time so then Athletics becomes the main skill for me to choose to counter fatigue and avoiding those penalties associated with fatigue.

[gkathellar]

 

IT doesn't matter. A fighter/barbarian/monk with a low perception regardless of ranged attacks is still a liability

Yes it does because range is not a combat stat that is useful for all classes and builds and therefore fails to meet the system design goals.

 

 

QFT. Ranged options for fighters and barbarians are a must - right now, it is impossible to make a competent archer who is neither a spellcaster, a beastmaster, nor a sneak-attacker. Monks and paladins should get something.

 

I actually like Perception giving a range bonus, although I don't think that should be all. But right now, 4/11 classes cannot contribute meaningfully at range.

[morhilane]

 

 

IT doesn't matter. A fighter/barbarian/monk with a low perception regardless of ranged attacks is still a liability

Yes it does because range is not a combat stat that is useful for all classes and builds and therefore fails to meet the system design goals.

 

 

QFT. Ranged options for fighters and barbarians are a must - right now, it is impossible to make a competent archer who is neither a spellcaster, a beastmaster, nor a sneak-attacker. Monks and paladins should get something.

 

I actually like Perception giving a range bonus, although I don't think that should be all. But right now, 4/11 classes cannot contribute meaningfully at range.

 

 

Melee/ranged accuracy split is gone. Fighter have 25 (Very high) accuracy regardless of the weapon(s) they are using.

 

Same goes for Barbarians (20 accuracy), but I have no idea if Carnage applies on projectile (that would be awesome).

[wanderon]

Never really looked at skills before but now that I'm going over it, there is a lot of doubling up which makes it a pointless exercise in some cases.

 

If you're not taking a Rogue, the starting companions are:

 

BB Rogue has the highest in Stealth - 5 and Mechanics - 6

BB Fighter has the highest Athletics - 6

BB Priest has the highest Survival - 3

BB Wizard has the highest Lore - 8

 

I've picked my class as the Cipher and pumped Lore (7) which makes the BB Wizard nearly obsolete. When I do level up my Cipher, it will make the BB Wizard skill obsolete.

I've bought a Druid from the inn and what do I pump? Survival? Okay, Druid now has survival (5) which makes the Priest's survival skill obsolete.

 

There are going to be companions that have doubled up and I'll be allocating points to characters (like the priest) knowing another companion (druid) has a higher points total in that skill.

 

Are companions skills in lore or any skill triggered in conversation even meaningful in any way? As I understand it its the PC skills that are used in all conversations regardless of which character initiates the talk isn't it?