Per-rest vs. Per-encounter

[Captain Shrek]

For me personally the entire debate is pointless. I am playing a single player game ffs. I do not need to be punished for doing cool stuff. The difficulty does not need to come from how many times I can use a banal thing like knockdown. That is a pretty strange thing in itself btw. The Difficulty should come from how smart the AI is and how the encounters are arranged. This per day stuff is just going to trivialize the game anyway. Why wouldn't you just fast run to the nearest town and get your most powerful ability back anyway? I am happy they decided to go with  resource management for resting but that is not going to help beyond a point...

 

As I see it, the best option is to give us flashy stuff to do. Give wizard uber nukes just make them cost resources like gems or XP. Well why not? That way the player can decide how he wants to play and use them for fun. The rest of the abilities also need to be flashy but always usable. The difficulty will come from the map design and the enemy behavior. 

[Namutree]

For me personally the entire debate is pointless. I am playing a single player game ffs. I do not need to be punished for doing cool stuff. The difficulty does not need to come from how many times I can use a banal thing like knockdown. That is a pretty strange thing in itself btw. The Difficulty should come from how smart the AI is and how the encounters are arranged. This per day stuff is just going to trivialize the game anyway. Why wouldn't you just fast run to the nearest town and get your most powerful ability back anyway? I am happy they decided to go with  resource management for resting but that is not going to help beyond a point...

 

As I see it, the best option is to give us flashy stuff to do. Give wizard uber nukes just make them cost resources like gems or XP. Well why not? That way the player can decide how he wants to play and use them for fun. The rest of the abilities also need to be flashy but always usable. The difficulty will come from the map design and the enemy behavior. 

Flashy stuff to do? I prefer substance over style. Your idea certainly doesn't sound very IE like, or even very fun. I can get a AAA game and see much flashier stuff than poe could ever provide.

[Matt516]

 

 

 

Simple autoattack has 0 space for decisions. Having abilities gives that space for decisions. You are also wrong saying it's bad not to use all per-encounter abilities. If you just spam then sure, it has no depth. But they should be used when needed.

BS. They are better than standard attacks and not using them every encounter is sub-optimal. Period. No thought needed. Fight starts; use them right away. There are only a few exceptions to that situation right now. If they worked as you suggest they do there wouldn't be a problem, but they don't.

 

We aren't against the idea of per-encounter; only the implementation of them right now. As Sensuki said, the rogue ability is great because it has to be used correctly; you can't just haphazardly spam it every battle without a single thought. That's the way all the per-encounter abilities should be. Otherwise they're just a more tedious form of auto-attacking.

But that's simply not true. Using Knockdown to interrupt a powerful ability or trip up a fleeing enemy or break engagement so you can go elsewhere or reduce enemy defenses so your caster can crit with their spell... EACH of these is patently better than using it blindly at the start of the fight.

 

I suppose you could argue that if you wait for a good opportunity to use it you may never get to, but that doesn't really hold water because nothing is stopping you using it at the tail end of an encounter and getting the same benefits you would have from using it at the beginning. But blowing it at the very start is not optimal play - it's getting less out of the ability than you would if you waited for a good opportunity to use it.

 

Not that I don't think per encounter abilities need to be tuned - but let's drop this business of "the optimal play is to use per encounters instantly at the start of a fight". That's foolishness. It depends on the nature of the ability, what it can be used for, what a "best case" opportunity for using the ability is and how likely that is to occur, etc.

 

TL;DR - Using knockdown blindly at the start of a fight is a very good example of bad (i.e. suboptimal) play.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Matt516

[Captain Shrek]

So can someone explain to me why knockdown is per encounter? Or is the explanation same as "Stamina healing is not healing"?

[Namutree]

So can someone explain to me why knockdown is per encounter? Or is the explanation same as "Stamina healing is not healing"?

It's just gamey nonsense. As is much of the game. If that kind of thing bothers you; an IE style game simply isn't for you.

[Namutree]

I suppose you could argue that if you wait for a good opportunity to use it you may never get to, but that doesn't really hold water because nothing is stopping you using it at the tail end of an encounter and getting the same benefits you would have from using it at the beginning. But blowing it at the very start is not optimal play - it's getting less out of the ability than you would if you waited for a good opportunity to use it.

 

If you wait the enemies will live longer and thus do much more damage. So using the abilities at the tail end of the battle is not nearly as effective as using them right away.

 

Also, as I said there are a few exceptions.

[Gfted1]

 

 

I didnt. I was making the point that ToB abilities dont mean a damn since you cant use them for the lions share of the game. If you like, I can use shorter words or simpler sentences when speaking to you if these sorts of things throw you off.

 

Aww, went straight to the butthurt? Perhaps you should review what you posted:

 

 

 

I wonder if people really feel it would be tactically deeper to have the fighter do nothing other than auto attack? Thats what it was in the ie games and that sucked. That was boring. In that game, fighters did nothing of interest other than die slowly.

 

 

 

As someone who is just reading this thread I got to say this is really unbecomming of a forum moderator. And as far as your discussions goes he did say ie gameS. You gave an example of ToB. Which was expansion to a sequel of a game and only at high levels. What with BG, IWD, PS:T BG2 early etc?

 

Gosh, I hope Ill be able to make it through the rest of my day. Although I do agree that it is sad when simple conversation cant take place without someone getting all insult-y when someone disagrees with them. We can only cross our fingers for a better tomorrow.

[Matt516]

 

 

 

I suppose you could argue that if you wait for a good opportunity to use it you may never get to, but that doesn't really hold water because nothing is stopping you using it at the tail end of an encounter and getting the same benefits you would have from using it at the beginning. But blowing it at the very start is not optimal play - it's getting less out of the ability than you would if you waited for a good opportunity to use it.

 

If you wait the enemies will live longer and thus do much more damage. So using the abilities at the tail end of the battle is not nearly as effective as using them right away.

 

Also, as I said there are a few exceptions.

"Tail end" = using it as a finishing blow. Sorry, should have specified. If you wait to use it as a finishing blow, there is 0 difference in total enemy life and you've also had the chance to use it for something more optimal than just damage. This isn't an exception, it's the rule. Firing off all your knockdowns blindly at the start is never the optimal way to play .

 

Like I said, I agree that some per encounters need to be looked at - but please don't base that argument off of a flawed understanding of the "optimal" strategy.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Matt516

[Namutree]

 

"Tail end" = using it as a finishing blow. 

Ah. That makes more sense.

[illathid]

So can someone explain to me why knockdown is per encounter? Or is the explanation same as "Stamina healing is not healing"?

 

yeah, like I keep saying Simulationism can die in a fire.

[archangel979]

 

So can someone explain to me why knockdown is per encounter? Or is the explanation same as "Stamina healing is not healing"?

 

yeah, like I keep saying Simulationism can die in a fire.

 

A healthy dose of Simulationism is the only thing that separates good games from MMORPG bull**** combat.

[Namutree]

 

 

So can someone explain to me why knockdown is per encounter? Or is the explanation same as "Stamina healing is not healing"?

 

yeah, like I keep saying Simulationism can die in a fire.

 

A healthy dose of Simulationism is the only thing that separates good games from MMORPG bull**** combat.

 

I don't think the IE games were very realistic, but they had fantastic combat. Pillars of Eternity would do well to emulate them.

[archangel979]

 

 

 

So can someone explain to me why knockdown is per encounter? Or is the explanation same as "Stamina healing is not healing"?

 

yeah, like I keep saying Simulationism can die in a fire.

 

A healthy dose of Simulationism is the only thing that separates good games from MMORPG bull**** combat.

 

I don't think the IE games were very realistic, but they had fantastic combat. Pillars of Eternity would do well to emulate them.

 

2e D&D was more on a simulationist side of the scale as far high fantasy goes.

[illathid]

 

 

So can someone explain to me why knockdown is per encounter? Or is the explanation same as "Stamina healing is not healing"?

 

yeah, like I keep saying Simulationism can die in a fire.

 

A healthy dose of Simulationism is the only thing that separates good games from MMORPG bull**** combat.

 

 

Um... What? I've played many RPGs that are not simulationist in the slightest and they don't have MMO combat.

[Mr. Magniloquent]

I think much this just comes out of the inherent imbalances of every ability. Most of them exist as if they were created in a vacuum--they have no real relation to each other. It gives us spells like Burning Hands (or whatever the Not D&D name is) doing more damage than Fireball--a spell two levels higher than it. Logical inconsistencies like this abound. I would be very curious to see how they design and develop spells and abilities, because the general nature of them hints that many are just after-thoughts sort of cobbled together. I have some ideas for resolving some of the issues, but the general frame-work is opaque and the class concepts are limiting. For the moment, all we can really hope for is general balancing from the ground up.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Mr. Magniloquent

[archangel979]

 

 

 

 

So can someone explain to me why knockdown is per encounter? Or is the explanation same as "Stamina healing is not healing"?

yeah, like I keep saying Simulationism can die in a fire.

A healthy dose of Simulationism is the only thing that separates good games from MMORPG bull**** combat.

Um... What? I've played many RPGs that are not simulationist in the slightest and they don't have MMO combat.

care to share their names?

[illathid]

Dogs in the Vineyard, Fate, Doctor Who, Dread, and WFRP 3e are the main systems.

 

Most of the actual RPGs themselves would be the various incarnations of the Fate system (Fate Core, Fate Accelerated, Spirit of the Century, Atomic Robo, the Dresden Files, etc.)

 

EDIT: Also I haven't had a chance to play Fiasco myself, but I hear it's quite good.

Edited September 19, 2014 by illathid

[archangel979]

I was talking about computer RPGs. That is what we are talking about here.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

One of the things I don't like about the at will, encounter and daily powers in PoE is at first glance, I have no idea which are encounters and daily powers.

 

In 4th ed pnp, at will (green), encounter (red) and daily powers (grey) are different colours as well as being the same colour in their own group. In pnp, if I'm looking at encounter powers, I can quickly scan the red powers. If I want to look at dailies, I quickly look at my grey powers. It's simple and quick. In PoE, I have to mouse over all the powers to find out is this an encounter or daily? I'd like them to be separated so encounters are together and dailies are together, or something that's easily identifiable without having to mouse over them to find a daily.

 

Another problem is there is hardly any information on what dailies actually do with specifics and under what conditions are best to use them. An example is the Rogues finishing blow.

 

In the game, when I mouse over the rogues Finishing Blow, this is what comes up. Firstly, it tells me it's a daily with the 'per rest'. There should be someway of telling me it's a daily without mousing over, but anyway. But then it says it's good for 'finishing off' opponents. Okay? So when should I use it? When an enemy is near death? Or 25% health? Or 40% health?

 

 

 

 

 

 

So mousing over the power doesn't give me a lot of information in game. I then decide to go into the character screen and read the power and this comes up! Okay, damage is increased as the enemy has less stamina. But again, it doesn't tell me a lot. How much damage is increased??? I would expect going into the actual character screen would tell me a great deal of information on what the power does. Nope, not at all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

So then I go to the wiki and see what it says about Finishing Blow.

http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Finishing_Blow

 

Gives the rogue increased damage that is inversely proportional to the current health of the target .^[1] The attack is made with an Accuracy bonus and does +50% damage if it hits. For every 1% under 50% Max Stamina the target has, the attack does an additional +3% damage.

 

Why is this not in the character screen or in the game??? It tells me straight away I should be using it when the enemy is under 50% and it gives me straight up percentages. I can use it when the enemy is at 40%, or 25% or anytime when the enemy is under 50% and the more bloodied an enemy is, the more damage I will deal. So then I can decide when to use it. if I want to use it when an enemy is at 35% or save it until 20% depending on the situation.

[illathid]

I was talking about computer RPGs. That is what we are talking about here.

Ok, then what about the CRPGs medium requires simulationism to prevent crappy MMO combat?

 

I mean it's not like there's some insurmountable divide between tabletop and computer RPG mechanics.

Edited September 20, 2014 by illathid

[remiel005]

I think a way of dealing with repetitive and often non-strategic use of /encounter abilities is to have them all share a common pool.  This would mean you earn /encounter universal uses when you level up, rather than for a specific ability.  At a level 8 a fighter would have 3/encounter uses between knockdown and vigorous defense.  The fighter can use knockdown 2 times and vigorous defense 1 time or any combination of the two (or any other /encounter abilities they earn).

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Also, I just wanted to add to my post above as I can't edit it. The Finishing Blow power does +50% damage if it hits regardless if the enemy is under or over 50% stamina. This is not stated in the game. While I don't want a wall of text with the mouse overs, I would like something simple like: +50% damage if hits with an extra +3% damage per 1% under 50% stamina the target has.

 

Although I do expect quite a lot of information to be in the character screen. Something like the IE games had with their spells.

[Namutree]

Also, I just wanted to add to my post above as I can't edit it. The Finishing Blow power does +50% damage if it hits regardless if the enemy is under or over 50% stamina. This is not stated in the game. While I don't want a wall of text with the mouse overs, I would like something simple like: +50% damage if hits with an extra +3% damage per 1% under 50% stamina the target has.

 

Although I do expect quite a lot of information to be in the character screen. Something like the IE games had with their spells.

Wasn't it a goal to make the powers easier to understand than the IE games? Because right now it's harder since the game hides information from us.

[wanderon]

 

Also, I just wanted to add to my post above as I can't edit it. The Finishing Blow power does +50% damage if it hits regardless if the enemy is under or over 50% stamina. This is not stated in the game. While I don't want a wall of text with the mouse overs, I would like something simple like: +50% damage if hits with an extra +3% damage per 1% under 50% stamina the target has.

 

Although I do expect quite a lot of information to be in the character screen. Something like the IE games had with their spells.

Wasn't it a goal to make the powers easier to understand than the IE games? Because right now it's harder since the game hides information from us.

 

 

I was concerned about this "hiding" too - in the last BB build they removed the "effects" info from vegies, meat etc - then it occured to me that this may be by design simply because they are still tweaking all that stuff??? 

[gkathellar]

 

 

Also, I just wanted to add to my post above as I can't edit it. The Finishing Blow power does +50% damage if it hits regardless if the enemy is under or over 50% stamina. This is not stated in the game. While I don't want a wall of text with the mouse overs, I would like something simple like: +50% damage if hits with an extra +3% damage per 1% under 50% stamina the target has.

 

Although I do expect quite a lot of information to be in the character screen. Something like the IE games had with their spells.

Wasn't it a goal to make the powers easier to understand than the IE games? Because right now it's harder since the game hides information from us.

 

 

I was concerned about this "hiding" too - in the last BB build they removed the "effects" info from vegies, meat etc - then it occured to me that this may be by design simply because they are still tweaking all that stuff??? 

 

 

Sure, but that would be a good reason NOT to hide the information - if anything, the tweaking/input period is when allowing people to see exactly what's under the hood is most important, since they can't give real feedback if they don't know what's happening.