Boys will be boys on the internet (<- sarcasm)

[BruceVC]

Volourn knows the true way to equality between genders is to have both men and women in the same rugby matches. That's the only way!

 

Don't joke but that's  exactly what Volo believes, he has said several times that a true believer in gender equality would support full contact sport between male and female sports teams

[Blarghagh]

Journalists still pretending it's about misogyny. In the meanwhile, a Reddit user got shadowbanned from Reddit simply for asking Julian Assange what he thought about Censorship during an AMA. Who was Reddit's parent company again? What other journalistic outlets did they own?

[Malcador]

Journalists still pretending it's about misogyny. In the meanwhile, a Reddit user got shadowbanned from Reddit simply for asking Julian Assange what he thought about Censorship during an AMA. Who was Reddit's parent company again? What other journalistic outlets did they own?

That was golden

 

Edited September 16, 2014 by Malcador

[Ganrich]

Both sides have ***holes. Both subsets of ***holes are equally abhorrent. I feel for her, but simultaneously she cannot expect this article to make the situation better. I don't believe it is intended to make it better.

 

From what I have seen the anti-gamergate articles of late keep dragging ZQ into this, and now she is doing it herself. The pro-gamergate articles hardly mention her except to say her antics were the catalyst for the movement, but that the movement has moved past her. Notice the comments are allowed in this article? Most of the other anti-gamergate articles have them disabled. Probably because every moron that comments against ZQ can allow the media to use it as evidence of the anti-woman angle in the gaming community? I am ignoring it, after the initial read, myself. Tinfoil hat off. I wish the articles against gamergate that aren't about ZQ had comments allowed. The few will ruin it for the many here.

 

I detest the alleged attacks on her, and I equally find the attacks from their camp detestable. It would be nice for people on the internet to be held accountable, but I guess that is a little too hopeful... Kind of like hoping our media was accountable to present news from writers that aren't afraid to declare their bias based on relationships. Lack of transparency is a two way street on the internet.

[Orogun01]

 

Volourn knows the true way to equality between genders is to have both men and women in the same rugby matches. That's the only way!

 

Don't joke but that's  exactly what Volo believes, he has said several times that a true believer in gender equality would support full contact sport between male and female sports teams

 

I always took that as absurd to demonstrate the fact that the most taut supporters of equality still know that the genders are not the same. 

[Starwars]

The internet is (unfortunately I'd say sometimes) a very real part of the world as it is today. You can commit crimes via the internet, you can harass people via the internet, you can threaten people via the internet. Making a world that's safer for women includes the internet because the internet is a very real part of the world today. 

 

Anonymity is of course a huge shield for anyone looking to act like a butthole, no argument there. But mens view of women (and no, I'm not pointing a finger at anyone special) permeates the internet as it does in other parts of the world.

 

I've worked in crisis management for about 4 years. In that time I've had *one* person who was male and suffered abuse at the hands of a woman in their relationship. Now, I'm not saying that there aren't more, because the male's role in society is to be tougher than that and to admit it would be to be weak. 

But in those 4 years I don't how many women I've met who've been raped, beaten, threatened in various ways and many who have been attacked "through the internet" as it were.

I'm against abuse in all forms but let's face it. Abuse from men against women is a waaaaaay bigger problem. No contest.

 

Buttholes will be buttholes, sure. And I never said that one could solve the problems on the internet in one fell swoop either. What I am saying is that harassment through the internet is serious. People threatening to rape a woman (again, even on the internetz!) is serious. It should not be swept under the rug as "it's the internetz what did u xpect com one?!!" 

 

Like I said, I managed to miss a lot of this discussion. So did Zoe Quinn do something horrible to deserve what's listed in the article? I played Depression Quest and while it's not the best thing I played I can't say I feel it's terrible enough to call her dad about it.

[Malcador]

Never said abuse online wasn't a problem. I guess abuse of women online is the priority for people to, heh, fix.

[Volourn]

"Don't joke but that's  exactly what Volo believes, he has said several times that a true believer in gender equality would support full contact sport between male and female sports teams"

 

If you don't, you admit to being sexist. Is this another admission of your sexism?

 

 

"People threatening to rape a woman (again, even on the internetz!) is serious."

 

\People threaten to rape everyone - male or female - on the internet.  I jsut recently got a PM on the Obsidian forums threatening nasty things to me from someone I never ehard of. L0L NOT A BIG DEAL.

 

 

"I've worked in crisis management for about 4 years. In that time I've had *one* person who was male and suffered abuse at the hands of a woman in their relationship. Now, I'm not saying that there aren't more, because the male's role in society is to be tougher than that and to admit it would be to be weak. 

But in those 4 years I don't how many women I've met who've been raped, beaten, threatened in various ways and many who have been attacked "through the internet" as it were.

I'm against abuse in all forms but let's face it. Abuse from men against women is a waaaaaay bigger problem. No contest."

 

Nope. FALSE. Don't mistake about stuff being reported as being worse. It's known that women commit spousal abuse just as much men. It's also known as you say yoruself that men won't report it. And, when they do, they are often laugh at and ridiculed. I know of cases where a man called the police to report spousal abuse and THEY were told to leave the home because that is how the law rolls.

 

\It's been shared by a woman social worker than women tend to hit men more but men tend to inflict more serious physical damage, because... ob average, mena re stronger. But, that's sexist talk!

 

MEN And WOMEN ARE EQUAL!

[BruceVC]

The internet is (unfortunately I'd say sometimes) a very real part of the world as it is today. You can commit crimes via the internet, you can harass people via the internet, you can threaten people via the internet. Making a world that's safer for women includes the internet because the internet is a very real part of the world today. 

 

Anonymity is of course a huge shield for anyone looking to act like a butthole, no argument there. But mens view of women (and no, I'm not pointing a finger at anyone special) permeates the internet as it does in other parts of the world.

 

I've worked in crisis management for about 4 years. In that time I've had *one* person who was male and suffered abuse at the hands of a woman in their relationship. Now, I'm not saying that there aren't more, because the male's role in society is to be tougher than that and to admit it would be to be weak. 

But in those 4 years I don't how many women I've met who've been raped, beaten, threatened in various ways and many who have been attacked "through the internet" as it were.

I'm against abuse in all forms but let's face it. Abuse from men against women is a waaaaaay bigger problem. No contest.

 

Buttholes will be buttholes, sure. And I never said that one could solve the problems on the internet in one fell swoop either. What I am saying is that harassment through the internet is serious. People threatening to rape a woman (again, even on the internetz!) is serious. It should not be swept under the rug as "it's the internetz what did u xpect com one?!!" 

 

Like I said, I managed to miss a lot of this discussion. So did Zoe Quinn do something horrible to deserve what's listed in the article? I played Depression Quest and while it's not the best thing I played I can't say I feel it's terrible enough to call her dad about it.

 

This is an excellent post, very sincere and accurate. I hope people take the time to understand the points you are making

[Shallow]

What I am saying is that harassment through the internet is serious. People threatening to rape a woman (again, even on the internetz!) is serious. It should not be swept under the rug as "it's the internetz what did u xpect com one?!!" 

I gotta disagree, whether threats on the internet generally aren't serious or anything to worry about, if anyone who has ever played an online game got 5 bucks every time some raging guy said something along the lines of "I'll kill you" or "I'll **** you up" everyone playing online games would be millionaires.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

What I am saying is that harassment through the internet is serious. People threatening to rape a woman (again, even on the internetz!) is serious. It should not be swept under the rug as "it's the internetz what did u xpect com one?!!"

I gotta disagree, whether threats on the internet generally aren't serious or anything to worry about, if anyone who has ever played an online game got 5 bucks every time some raging guy said something along the lines of "I'll kill you" or "I'll **** you up" everyone playing online games would be millionaires.

I was over at a friend's house and played some Call of Duty and was threatened with rape, castration, torture, and possibly mugging. There are some **** on teh interwebz, trying to pin their actions on anyone is a weak move.

[Malcador]

Never been accused of that, sadly, back in my day it was just being called a Jew and a homosexual. Or that one time I was a Jewish-Catholic-homosexual.

[Starwars]

Maybe I'm being two-faced now but I consider the kind of thing that happened to Zoe Quinn was kiiiiiiinda different than a Call of Duty match. I don't think the whole namecalling stuff during CoD games particularly impressive either (then again, I am oh-so-sensitive apparently ), but the situations are pretty different from one another wouldn't you agree?

 

I was called a disgusting homosexual once when I played a female character in Final Fantasy XI. Some dude on his first day of playing wanted me to cybersex him and after I said I was a dude he went off on me completely. I mean, it was pretty amusing in a way but also pretty disturbing because... I mean. Why?!

Edited September 16, 2014 by Starwars

[Malcador]

Aside from the threats via phone, not that much difference. Heh, funny how easy "false flag" type stuff can be done over Twitter.

[Elerond]

 

Volourn knows the true way to equality between genders is to have both men and women in the same rugby matches. That's the only way!

 

Don't joke but that's  exactly what Volo believes, he has said several times that a true believer in gender equality would support full contact sport between male and female sports teams

 

 

There is nothing wrong in full contact sports between men and women if both parties somewhat equally matched. But because of lots of reasons there is much less women that practice full contact sports at total which also means that there are less women on such level that they could compete against highest level men in said sports from equal play field.

 

Of course there is also sports that favor physiology of one gender over other, because their rules are created so that they take account only typical male or female physiology, which cause people from gender that sport was not crafted be in disadvantage from start, which usually means that they need to be on higher skill level to beat member from the gender that sport was crafted for, which usually means that it's very unlikely that they could succeed on highest level competitions. 

 

Equality is not direct motivation behind women's series in sports, but get women interested in the sports, so that there is more people that practice sport and therefore there is more people that will buy sports gear, more sports events where people buy tickets, more members in sports organizations so that they can hold more political and economical power and so on. If women's series rises enough women (or men in women dominated sports) in level that they can compete on some what equal play field with men then even better as it will most likely increase popularity of highest level series in that sport.  This also reason why sports where there is clear advantages from some physiological attributes have for example weight classes, meaning that it makes possible pool of people that compete in high skill level events of that sport higher by giving people with physical disadvantage, because of of rules of that particular sport, their own competition.

 

So in one hand I support mixed gender contact sports, where in other hand I understand why such things are at least currently quite rare things especially in highest skill level sport events.

[Shallow]

Maybe I'm being two-faced now but I consider the kind of thing that happened to Zoe Quinn was kiiiiiiinda different than a Call of Duty match. I don't think the whole namecalling stuff during CoD games particularly impressive either (then again, I am oh-so-sensitive apparently ), but the situations are pretty different from one another wouldn't you agree?

Harassment irl (which she has alledgedly (I believe her, just saying) recieved) through noninternet mediums is serious, it doesn't mean we should stop calling her out for the various things she did, it doesn't mean we shouldn't be boycotting mainstream game journalists, it doesn't mean we should stop the whole gamersgate and notmyshield thing, both of which are very valid issues, it just means the people who did it are total ****ing ****. Some people might be particularly angry at what Zoe Quinn did because she's a woman, the rest of us are pissed because she engaged in inappropriate relations with the press that covered her without said press telling the public, she attempted to sabotage a charity that tried to get women into game development for no reason, she might've falsely accused people of hacking her, there's an okay chance she lied about giving money donated to her to a charity, and because when called on all that, she just responds by calling the other person mysogynist.

 

Whether a person is motivated by hatred for women or blacks shouldn't matter, whether a person is a woman or is black shouldn't matter, you should judge the people on our side of the argument by whether we've presented valid reason to behave the way we do (people who go overboard and into deaththreats obviously don't have proper reason to do so, but most of us haven'tdone that), and you should accept that the entire debate shouldn't be paused because one person said something bad, especially when people (both men and women) on our side of the fence are being just as harrassed, if not more, by social justice ***holes. Anyhow, how do you justify our entire campaign as mysogynist because we're fighting against, among a ton of SJWs and corrupt people trying to sweep themselves under the rug, two women, when the women on our side are just as harrassed as the women on Zoes?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Maybe I'm being two-faced now but I consider the kind of thing that happened to Zoe Quinn was kiiiiiiinda different than a Call of Duty match. I don't think the whole namecalling stuff during CoD games particularly impressive either (then again, I am oh-so-sensitive apparently ), but the situations are pretty different from one another wouldn't you agree?

 

I was called a disgusting homosexual once when I played a female character in Final Fantasy XI. Some dude on his first day of playing wanted me to cybersex him and after I said I was a dude he went off on me completely. I mean, it was pretty amusing in a way but also pretty disturbing because... I mean. Why?!

It isnt different at its core. It is internet anons being huge **** to anyone unfortunate enough to cross paths with them. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

I find Quinn a morally questionable person at best(http://apgnation.com/archives/2014/09/09/6977/truth-gaming-interview-fine-young-capitalists reason why), but I generally ignore her because I don't care about her. I do care about corruption in video game press however, and don't think I should be conflated with a group of ****wits for expressing that concern.

Edited September 16, 2014 by KaineParker

[Volourn]

I also simply don't care who she sleeps with. I dont' care who anyone sleeps with - men or women - since I know none of them are sleeping with me so it's irrelevant. L0L

 

But, it's disgusting  being called a rapist just because I'm a male white gamer. LMAO

 

But, racist sexist feminists (yeah the last two are actually the same thing) like Bruce expect me to bend over and take such insults with a smile on my face.

 

 

R00fles! :D

[Starwars]

I have no idea what Quinn's history is prior to having read this. I'm not arguing whether she is a morally sound person or not. And from my point of view, it does not matter much in the face of what happened as described in the link. It's wrong. Have Quinn done things that are not right? I'm sure she has, I'll take your word for it. I haven't read up on it.

Does that justify what the boyfriend did? Does it justify what a small army of internet dwellers did? Does it justify contacting her family "in real life"? Hell no it does not.

 

It is not arguing what she has done. If she has lied about donations or whatever? That's terrible, certainly. It *still* does not justify what was being done. If you find her morally reprehensible, go ahead. I'm sure you may be right in that. But that's not what I'm talking about at all.

 

There are people in Swedish politics who have had to step down because they said similar stuff on the internet (one example was hoping that one woman got gangraped by black people, though using other words, it was in a racist context). It was not accepted (even in the in my opinion awful party where this happened). It should not be accepted here either though obviously we can't force anons to "step down". But it is acceptance to think that "she deserved it", because it is "only the internet" or looking for excuses for what happened. Maybe she was a real **** to the boyfriend? Still doesn't make his actions OK.

[Malcador]

What's the solution then ?

[Longknife]

I have no idea what Quinn's history is prior to having read this. I'm not arguing whether she is a morally sound person or not. And from my point of view, it does not matter much in the face of what happened as described in the link. It's wrong. Have Quinn done things that are not right? I'm sure she has, I'll take your word for it. I haven't read up on it.

Does that justify what the boyfriend did? Does it justify what a small army of internet dwellers did? Does it justify contacting her family "in real life"? Hell no it does not.

 

It is not arguing what she has done. If she has lied about donations or whatever? That's terrible, certainly. It *still* does not justify what was being done. If you find her morally reprehensible, go ahead. I'm sure you may be right in that. But that's not what I'm talking about at all.

 

There are people in Swedish politics who have had to step down because they said similar stuff on the internet (one example was hoping that one woman got gangraped by black people, though using other words, it was in a racist context). It was not accepted (even in the in my opinion awful party where this happened). It should not be accepted here either though obviously we can't force anons to "step down". But it is acceptance to think that "she deserved it", because it is "only the internet" or looking for excuses for what happened. Maybe she was a real **** to the boyfriend? Still doesn't make his actions OK.

 

 

Not exactly disagreeing with you, but I just wanna toss out there that amongst the accusations involving her and her character are several (aka from multiple sources) accusations of her being guilty of harassing others not unlike she's being harassed now.

 

  "Eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind" and all that, but that's a pretty high moral high ground and we ARE talking about the internet.   Not excusing, just looking to provide some logical explanation for you as to why there's such heated discussion on this.

[Shallow]

I have no idea what Quinn's history is prior to having read this. I'm not arguing whether she is a morally sound person or not. And from my point of view, it does not matter much in the face of what happened as described in the link. It's wrong. Have Quinn done things that are not right? I'm sure she has, I'll take your word for it. I haven't read up on it.

Does that justify what the boyfriend did? Does it justify what a small army of internet dwellers did? Does it justify contacting her family "in real life"? Hell no it does not.

 

It is not arguing what she has done. If she has lied about donations or whatever? That's terrible, certainly. It *still* does not justify what was being done. If you find her morally reprehensible, go ahead. I'm sure you may be right in that. But that's not what I'm talking about at all.

 

There are people in Swedish politics who have had to step down because they said similar stuff on the internet (one example was hoping that one woman got gangraped by black people, though using other words, it was in a racist context). It was not accepted (even in the in my opinion awful party where this happened). It should not be accepted here either though obviously we can't force anons to "step down". But it is acceptance to think that "she deserved it", because it is "only the internet" or looking for excuses for what happened. Maybe she was a real **** to the boyfriend? Still doesn't make his actions OK.

Ask anyone whether deaththreats and the like should cease, odds are the response will be yes, and no, she doesn't deserve everything that has allegedly happened, but we can't stop internet people from saying stuff, there's no justifiable point in shifting the discussions about the massive corruption allegations that've been going around to "All gamers are ***hole and hate women, we must all feel great pity for Zoe Quinn." like a lot of people have been trying to do.

 

Also, there are people far more worthy of your tears than Zoe Quinn, save them for the better people out there who are being treated worse.

[Starwars]

What's the solution then ?

 

Oh please do you think I started this thread to find a solution? Come on. This is a gaming forum with an off-topic section and reading this outraged me. If I even had an inclination to actually *solve* problems like this, the Obsidian forums are certainly not the venue I would use.

Just by the tone of the posts here, it seems issues like this have been discussed here before and people have gotten tired of them. Or the whole "nazi anti-male feminism" which people seem to run into constantly (I have a fair amount of friends who voted for the Feminist Initiative here in Sweden and I wouldn't consider them to be anti-male, hence my being friends with them) but which I have never seen personally.

 

 

 

Ask anyone whether deaththreats and the like should cease, odds are the response will be yes, and no, she doesn't deserve everything that has allegedly happened, but we can't stop internet people from saying stuff, there's no justifiable point in shifting the discussions about the massive corruption allegations that've been going around to "All gamers are ***hole and hate women, we must all feel great pity for Zoe Quinn." like a lot of people have been trying to do.

 

I think there is a very large point in talking about the things that happened to her are not OK. Maybe I'm very naive but it is my personal belief that talking about things like this and saying "no, it's not ok to threaten to rape someone, even over the internet" can have a large impact if enough people do it openly. If something like that happened to my daughter, if people started talking on the internet about raping her or worse, if someone actually took the steps to *call me* and make real contact, I would be terrified and furious. Turning the other way, or in any just *suggesting* that it's ok and not speaking out against such things worsen the situation if you ask me. 

 

 

Also, there are people far more worthy of your tears than Zoe Quinn, save them for the better people out there who are being treated worse.

 

 

I'm glad you're here to tell me these things.

Edited September 16, 2014 by Starwars

[Shallow]

 

What's the solution then ?

 

Oh please do you think I started this thread to find a solution? Come on. This is a gaming forum with an off-topic section and reading this outraged me. If I even had an inclination to actually *solve* problems like this, the Obsidian forums are certainly not the venue I would use.

Just by the tone of the posts here, it seems issues like this have been discussed here before and people have gotten tired of them. Or the whole "nazi anti-male feminism" which people seem to run into constantly (I have a fair amount of friends who voted for the Feminist Initiative here in Sweden and I wouldn't consider them to be anti-male, hence my being friends with them) but which I have never seen personally.

 

Ask anyone whether deaththreats and the like should cease, odds are the response will be yes, and no, she doesn't deserve everything that has allegedly happened, but we can't stop internet people from saying stuff, there's no justifiable point in shifting the discussions about the massive corruption allegations that've been going around to "All gamers are ***hole and hate women, we must all feel great pity for Zoe Quinn." like a lot of people have been trying to do.

 

I think there is a very large point in talking about the things that happened to her are not OK. Maybe I'm very naive but it is my personal belief that talking about things like this and saying "no, it's not ok to threaten to rape someone, even over the internet" can have a large impact if enough people do it openly. If something like that happened to my daughter, if people started talking on the internet about raping her or worse, if someone actually took the steps to *call me* and make real contact, I would be terrified and furious. Turning the other way, or in any just *suggesting* that it's ok and not speaking out against such things worsen the situation if you ask me. 

 

Also, there are people far more worthy of your tears than Zoe Quinn, save them for the better people out there who are being treated worse.

 

I'm glad you're here to tell me these things.

Yeah, sure, the things that happened to her aren't ok, there, done, let's get back to the issue at hand... no wait, apparently we also need articles from the gaming media labelling all gamers white misogynist male scum, and apparently it isn't okay to be against those articles, or anything Zoe Quinn has done, otherwise you support the threats, despite stating you don't. There is absolutely nothing that can be done to stop the threats that isn't illegal, most statements on our side of the fence quick and offhandedly state they don't support the threats at their start, thus we might as well talk about the issues with game journalism and corruption, and not circlejerk about how sad it is that Zoe Quinn got threatened, despite the fact that other people are getting just as harrassed, if not more, on our side of the fence, and those other people want the discussion to keep going. There is only so much speaking out you can do, there is no point repeating "What happened to Zoe Quinn is bad" over and over, and doing so would be a massive waste of time.

 

Do you really not have better things to condemn than some threats a person recieved?

 

And yeah, this topic has been discussed to hell and back.

Edited September 16, 2014 by Shallow

[Ganrich]

This makes me think of the Denis Dyack vs Neogaf incident. Minus the alleged sexism BS. Not very many people stepped in to defend his harassment or ridicule. Whether or not deserved. I personally think Dyack is a very intelligent man, but has a hotheadedness that tended to bite him on the ***. However, you would be hard pressed to find anyone in the general gaming community that would speak positively about him, and that is because he lashed out at the community at large. Arguments can be made against Dyack's managerial skills though.

 

Now here we are with ZQ, and the start of this wasn't her fault like it was Dyack's, but we have the media lashing out at the same community. They want that focus to stay on ZQ. I say forget her, let her be, we have bigger fish to fry with the media.