Capitalism & Socialism

[Rosbjerg]

I think the differential is that Fascism places emphasis on Nation and/or Race while Communism places emphasis largely on Class. Not too much different in execution, but it is worth pointing out difference in what fuels each ideology.

 

This is the distinction I've always worked with. Ideologically Fascism often also refers to a Golden Past, whereas Communism often talks about the Golden Future. So there are conservative vs reformative differences as well.

 

 

Edit: Propaganda wise we see big differences too, that allude to the underlying psychology of the regimes. Fascism and Nazism took their clues from the Roman Empire, both in symbolism but also in elevating the "First among Men" and the strong leader cult. Whereas communist regimes took a new approach and appealed much more the the "low" and the rise of "the collective" through the elevation of "the common man". Much in the same way Christianity and Judaism did, which I suspect is also why they were so keen to get rid of that competition.

[Namutree]

 

To quote myself from these boards:

 

RE: the Nazi economy.

 

Functionally the Nazi economy was capitalist; it worked in cooperation with leading industrialists with the state's primary role being a suppressor of any organised labour. Policy wise under Schacht they pursued radical Keynesian policies of high public spending with large deficits and under Göring they shifted to a (rather poor) war economy which was sustained by having the private sector controlled by price, wage and financial controls.

 

Your own description doesn't sound capitalist. Either way I haven't denied that Nazi-Germany's economy contained capitalist elements, but I am not debating whether of not Nazi-Germany was a socialist state. I am saying the Nazi's themselves are socialists.

 

All the economic policies the Nazi's implemented were socialistic (including the suppression of labor), but yes; Nazi-Germany still had some respect for property. 

 

They called themselves socialist, they implemented socialist policies, they promoted socialism; how are they not socialists?

[Barothmuk]

Your own description doesn't sound capitalist.

I suppose post WWII France or Britain during WWII weren't capitalist either.

 

Good lord.

Either way I haven't denied that Nazi-Germany's economy contained capitalist elements, but I am not debating whether of not Nazi-Germany was a socialist state.

I wasn't debating with you at all. Your understanding of economics is laughable. Edited September 30, 2014 by Barothmuk

[Namutree]

 

Either way I haven't denied that Nazi-Germany's economy contained capitalist elements, but I am not debating whether of not Nazi-Germany was a socialist state.

I wasn't debating with you at all. Your understanding of economics is laughable.

 

On what basis? Have I said something incorrect?

 

I guess if I spouted factually wrong nonsense like, "In capitalism you have to trade your labor for food." I would be an expert like you.

[Barothmuk]

On what basis? Have I said something incorrect?

From memory...

 

Whether something is socialism isn't determined by economics but by level of "government control in people's lives". Republican social policies are socialistic. The Nazis were socialist. Keynesian economics aren't capitalist and so on.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Barothmuk

[Namutree]

 

From memory...

 

Whether something is socialism isn't determined by economics but by level of "government control in people's lives. 

Never said that. I said that's what I focus on. It's what bothers me the most about socialism and that's why I focus on that aspect of socialism.

 

 

Republican social policies are socialistic

 

Some of them are. I didn't say they all are though.

 

 

The Nazis were socialist.

 

No one on this forum yet has revealed anything about the Nazis that would disqualify them as socialists. So far the only argument has been the Nazi-Germany wasn't a socialist society; which is true, but not the point. I don't know why anyone would expect that the Nazis could turn Germany into a socialist society in only 10 years.

[Barothmuk]

No one on this forum yet has revealed anything about the Nazis that would disqualify them as socialists.

They believed in the protection of private property.

[Namutree]

 

No one on this forum yet has revealed anything about the Nazis that would disqualify them as socialists.

They believed in the protection of private property.

 

Are you serious? They believe so much in private property that they nationalized industries by force, seized land whenever they wanted, and believed there was no sphere in which the state did not hold complete authority. That's not protection of private property at all.

[Barothmuk]

Are you serious?

"I absolutely insist on protecting private property."

 

"We stand for the maintenance of private property ... We shall protect free enterprise as the most expedient, or rather the sole possible economic order."

 

So in theory they believed in protecting private property (although with regulation) and I've already explained how their economic policies played out in practice.

 

This is pretty basic stuff, lay off the Glenn Beck.

[Namutree]

 

This is pretty basic stuff, lay off the Glenn Beck.

 

I've never seen Glenn Beck's show before. I don't really like how libertarians are in love with states rights anyway.

[Gorgon]

 

 

I thougth this was interesting for how the Communists managed to sieze control of a popular movement and turn it authoritarian. You can skip past the questions. 

[Zoraptor]

Turning popular movements authoritarian is a very old phenomenon, eg the English Civil War, Cromwell turned a theoretically 'democratic' parliamentary revolution into an absolute dictatorship and crapped all over some of his most strident and important supporters- let alone his enemies- as soon as they stepped even slightly out of line because he had control of the army, and the will to use it.

[Orogun01]

 

"I absolutely insist on protecting private property."

 

"We stand for the maintenance of private property ... We shall protect free enterprise as the most expedient, or rather the sole possible economic order."

 

So in theory they believed in protecting private property (although with regulation) and I've already explained how their economic policies played out in practice.

 

This is pretty basic stuff, lay off the Glenn Beck.

 

I would think that due to how popular Schlinder's list was people would know that the Nazis supported private entities.

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

I think the differential is that Fascism places emphasis on Nation and/or Race while Communism places emphasis largely on Class. Not too much different in execution, but it is worth pointing out difference in what fuels each ideology.

 

This is the distinction I've always worked with. Ideologically Fascism often also refers to a Golden Past, whereas Communism often talks about the Golden Future. So there are conservative vs reformative differences as well.

 

 

Edit: Propaganda wise we see big differences too, that allude to the underlying psychology of the regimes. Fascism and Nazism took their clues from the Roman Empire, both in symbolism but also in elevating the "First among Men" and the strong leader cult. Whereas communist regimes took a new approach and appealed much more the the "low" and the rise of "the collective" through the elevation of "the common man". Much in the same way Christianity and Judaism did, which I suspect is also why they were so keen to get rid of that competition.

 

Ah, that's not the case at all. No one's done the cult of personality like Communist regimes, whether Lenin, Stalin, Mao or the Kims.

[Rosbjerg]

Yeah true, that's a fair point - and Mao, and Kim Jung Whatever as well.

[HoonDing]

Until Hirohito Japanese Emperors were considered by law to be direct descendants of Amaterasu, a goddess. And nowadays ultranationalists and Shinto believers still do.

 

That's the ultimate personality cult.

[obyknven]

Until Hirohito Japanese Emperors were considered by law to be direct descendants of Amaterasu, a goddess. And nowadays ultranationalists and Shinto believers still do.

 

That's the ultimate personality cult.

Japan's are strange people. They are so intolerant to Ainu people, through Ainu create original Japanese state and all samurai are Ainu descendants.

http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/5140409/1/

[Malignacious]

If you want an in depth knowledge on why socialism has never worked and never will work.

[Walsingham]

Even though I agree it won't work, I'm not following that link.

[teknoman2]

Geralt in The Wtcher explained it in the most precise way

Power, sex, sex, power... It all comes down to one thing: f***ing others

[JadedWolf]

Geralt in The Wtcher explained it in the most precise way

Power, sex, sex, power... It all comes down to one thing: f***ing others

 

And I bet Geralt would win in a sword fight with either Marx or Adam Smith as well. So I guess we can close this thread.

[AGX-17]

Until Hirohito Japanese Emperors were considered by law to be direct descendants of Amaterasu, a goddess. And nowadays ultranationalists and Shinto believers still do.

 

That's the ultimate personality cult.

That was only during the Meiji era, beginning in 1868 and ending in 1946. Modern Japanese overwhelmingly do not believe the emperor or royal family are divine. The British royal family gets more worship and adulation from around the world than any god does in Japan. The mandate of heaven, divine right, whatever you call it has always been a political mechanism to justify individual rule.

 

For most of Japan's recorded history, it has been ruled by Shoguns for whom emperors were simply puppets or figureheads. If your rather hyperbolic generalization were true, that wouldn't be the case.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Shinto

 

In a 1911 article, the head of the Home Ministry declared that attendance at shrines was not a matter of religious faith but of respect for one's ancestors and the nation. In 1936, the Catholic Church's Propaganda Fide announced that visits to shrines had "only a purely civil value".[4] According to the religious scholar Jason Ānanda Josephson, It is inaccurate to describe shrines as constituting a "state religion" or a "theocracy" during this period since they lacked organization or doctrine.[5] Jolyon Baraka Thomas writes that the Empire of Japan's constitutional system "should be considered a secular system rather than a system of state religion."[6] However, American missionaries and Protestant groups they influenced continued to object to this classification.

 

After the surrender of Japan American forces re-analyzed the data and determined that Japan had constructed a "state religion". In December 1945, the elements of this State Shinto were announced and privatized. On 1 January 1946, Emperor Shōwa issued a statement, sometimes referred to as the Humanity Declaration, in which he quoted the Five Charter Oath of Emperor Meiji and announced that he was not a kami and Japan was not built on myths. As a result of the privatization of shrines, Yasukuni Shrine in Tokyo, a monument to war dead, has become a "religious corporation".

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Japan

 

 

 

Figures that state 84% to 96% of Japanese adhere to Shinto and Buddhism are not based on self-identification but come primarily from birth records, following a longstanding practice of officially associating a family line with a local Buddhist temple or Shinto shrine.[3][4][5][6] About 70% of Japanese profess no religious membership,[7][8] according to "Operation World" (1993), 84% of the Japanese claim no personal religion. In census questionnaires, less than 15% reported any formal religious affiliation by 2000.[9] "Crossing the Gods" (2001) claims 64% do not believe in God, and 55% do not believe in "Buddha".[10] According to Edwin Reischauer, and Marius Jansen, some 70–80% of the Japanese regularly tell pollsters they do not consider themselves believers in any religion.[1]

 

A 2008 poll carried out by the NHK Broadcasting Culture Research Institute and ISSP (International Social Survey Programme) surveyed 1200 Japanese people on their beliefs, and 39% of the surveyed people reported having a religious belief: 34% declared to follow Buddhism, 3% Shinto, 1% Christianity (0.7% Protestantism, 0.2% Catholicism) and 1% other religions.[11]

Edited October 6, 2014 by AGX-17

[teknoman2]

 

Geralt in The Wtcher explained it in the most precise way

Power, sex, sex, power... It all comes down to one thing: f***ing others

 

And I bet Geralt would win in a sword fight with either Marx or Adam Smith as well. So I guess we can close this thread.

 

they say politicians do to the people what they are too old to do to their wives