How to Make the Health System a bit more intuitive

[Sensuki]

This is an idea I've mentioned before but I thought I'd make my own thread for it.

 

Here is the text from the KS BB Update

 

Stamina and Health are Unintuitive - We have consistently found with players and testers that the stamina and health system are unintuitive as presented in game. However, we have also consistently found that, once explained and understood, the system was well-received by the people who used it. We are working on solutions to this disconnect.

I think that this is being caused by the combination of the Health bar, and the Stamina red fill together, and the fact that both resources take 'damage' at once.

 

My idea makes a slight change the mechanics of how they work (no ratios or values are changed) but just WHEN Health is reduced and how it is displayed.

 

Here is a terrible mspaint mockup I made

 

 

Your health would be displayed as a NUMBER (number > bar in intuitiveness, always). This number would represent your character's health which in the upcoming system will likely be a high number, probably in the several hundreds or something. How is your suggestion any different, you may ask? Since all I have done at the moment is changed the health bar to a number. What I propose is to change the way damage is dealt, and make all damage deal Stamina damage only. Health cannot be reduced by damage, so when you take damage, you take stamina damage only and your portrait fills up with blood.

 

However when you heal, ALL healing converts HEALTH into STAMINA, so as you heal, your Health pool is drained and it refills your stamina. Once you run out of Health, you cannot heal yourself any more - as in the lore there is no 'true' healing magic that can heal health, and you must work with your remaining Stamina only.

 

 

No healing in Pillars of Eternity is free, and this is why I think that the suggestion to split Stamina and Health over different attributes is a bad idea because Stamina can be healed, Health cannot. This idea is more in line with D&D 4E's healing surge mechanic, and less in line with Darkland's split health system. I think stamina is now called endurance too, but anyway.

 

I think this would make the Health system MUCH more intuitive for new players especially. I don't think it would improve our (the beta backers) understanding of it any further, but I think this is a more intuitive way to get across how Health works in Eora/The Eternity world. So yeah sorry Josh I know you like the Darklands way, but I think that this is probably a better way of doing it.

 

I will say though that I do not care if this suggestion is not considered as I understand the system as it works currently, this suggestion is more for the benefit of others.

Edited September 13, 2014 by Sensuki

[archangel979]

This is better than current system but not much (I consider current system faulty).

 

Since I don't really see it being changed my addition to this topic would be to call Health the numbers taking damage and Endurance the pool underneath.

In my understanding Endurance is long term and fits more for a pool that lets you continue to fight longer.

[Infinitron]

Here's an idea: In addition to the number, represent health visually as a gradual "greying out" of the character's portrait as he loses health. This would be appropriate since the portraits of dead characters in the IE games went monochrome.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Some people may not understand the 4E's healing surge mechanic. That you can be on full stamina and it appears as health in the game as it's the only thing taking damage when in combat. And then after combat, you have what appears to be a second health amount in reserve that replenishes your first health amount. Some people might just say, why not add the two together and have one full amount? There's obviously an easy answer to that for us that know about health and healing surges, but for those who have no idea about healing surges, it would be quite confusing at first.

Edited September 13, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Sensuki]

Here's an idea: In addition to the number, represent health visually as a gradual "greying out" of the character's portrait as he loses health. This would be appropriate since the portraits of dead characters in the IE games went monochrome.

Icewind Dale 2 changed the color of the number as more HP damage was taken, it went from green, orange, yellow, to red.

 

Some people may not understand the 4E's healing surge mechanic. That you can be on full stamina and it appears as health in the game as it's the only thing taking damage when in combat. And then after combat, you have what appears to be a second health amount in reserve that replenishes your first health amount. Some people might just say, why not add the two together and have one full amount? There's obviously an easy answer to that for us that know about health and healing surges, but for those who have no idea about healing surges, it would be quite confusing at first.

It's a fair point but I think if explained properly in the Character creation, UI and perhaps even kinda/sorta in the dialogue in the prologue between Calisca and Heodan - where they talk about resting, it should get the message across.

 

I don't think there's any way to avoid "why aren't they just the same thing?", as that's an issue with the current system as well. If they can explain that there's no true healing magic or whatever, then the player should understand.

 

It personally doesn't matter to me if it's left as is or changed.

Edited September 13, 2014 by Sensuki

[Lasweetlife]

After a couple of battles the current system made sense to me and I've grown to like it. I don't think this suggestion is any more intuitive, though, just like the current system, I could grow to like it if it were implemented. LSS, I think all that needs to be done in the full game is to have the current system very clearly explained in the tutorial (even if it has to be in an immersion-breaking manner).

[Sensuki]

Yeah as I said - we will not find this any different. It's the same thing displayed differently in the UI.

Edited September 13, 2014 by Sensuki

[Infinitron]

I think that if they want to keep the current system, the best thing to do in terms of good UI design might be to give up on the traditional IE "filling up with blood" effect and just put two equally sized bars next to or above each portrait, one for health and one for stamina/endurance.

 

But, fans wouldn't like this, so a number may be the next best thing.

 

Or wait, maybe a horizontal bar at the bottom of the portrait?

Edited September 13, 2014 by Infinitron

[Ark Evensong]

I like it, but then again I wrote a similar idea just last night, buried somewhere. 

 

I'm toying with another idea, though, which might be easier to present to players, while functionally being pretty much the same :

 

Switch "Health" to a "Restoration Pool" - getting damaged doesn't drain your green bar, being healed does. 

 

(And let's call Stamina/Endurance "Hit Points",  - they're exactly the same, so it's not because it makes more sense, but this post would get (more) confusing otherwise. Also, "Restoration Pool" is a dumb name, but can be abbreviated easily.)

 

Keep the values they're implementing for now. 4 Health:1 Endurance -> 4 RP:1 HP (... or uh, 3 RP:1 HP, actually. Health(-1):Endurance) Healing is done on a 1:1 scale. In or out of combat, doesn't matter.

Run out of HP? You're knocked out.

Run out of RP? You're still standing, but no more healing for you.

Run out of HP with an empty RP bar? You're goners.

 

There are some edge cases, though. Health:Endurance can easily support "knock-out gas", Endurance damage without affecting Health. This one? Not so easily. (But I think the "Restoration Pool" would handle the converse better. Special attacks that also affect another bar would stand out more than special attacks that affect one bar more than usually.)

When and how to implement Maimed status might need some rethinking as well. Can't have that occur on 0 RP, because it doesn't make sense to have maimed status be triggered by a healing action.

 

Hmm.

 

Terminology should probably change, though. You lose Health by Healing? That doesn't make any sense. I went with "Restoration Pool", which is terrible, but not as confusing.

 

Not sure I like the bar -> number change, though. You say that for intuitiveness, "number > bar, always", but in your example, it's placed pretty much where you would expect your "Immediate Health" (=Stamina/Endurance), not your backup pool. It's less immediate, so it doesn't need as immediate a representation on/near your portrait. IMO, the current green bar would be fine.

 

And, perhaps this is unnecessary, since I got used to the current system pretty quickly. Others have, too. Then again, I (we?) knew what to expect beforehand.

[Sensuki]

Well it is your Health as it's your Health over the day. Endurance/Stamina is more like you just run out of steam during a highly intensive activity (combat).

 

I did see your proposal, and I did see another user post a very similar thing as well.

Edited September 13, 2014 by Sensuki

[Ark Evensong]

Oh, sure. I see how that value represents your "true" or "daily" Health.

 

What I don't see as intuitive is to have that value (called Health) decrease on healing effects. That non-intuitive leap undoes any gain in clarity of incoming damage only affecting one pool, in my opinion.

A simple name change could fix that, though. (Restoration Pool, Health Reserves/Reserve Health, /whatever)

 

If that means you end up with no stat simply called "Health", that's fine by me.

 

Hadn't seen the suggestion before myself on these board, (sometimes, they move rather quickly.) but I didn't expect to be first or only one with it.

[Sensuki]

HP (healing points)

[Sylvanpyxie]

How would this affect Monks and their wound system? Currently wounds temporarily grant a bonus to the health pool so if this Health = Healing system were implemented, would Monks not be open to continual healing as long as they stacked up wounds?

 

Just a thought.

Edited September 13, 2014 by Sylvanpyxie

[IndiraLightfoot]

I agree that numbers are more intuitive and clear, so health would benefit from being displayed as a number.

 

And perhaps we should say "Endurance" from now on:

 

 

Only tangentially related, but we've already made changes to the Stamina (soon to be Endurance) and Health system that should a) make front-line characters (like fighters) more survivable in the long-term and b) make the system clearer overall.

 

The previous system kept Stamina and Health values pretty much equal.  Behind the scenes, as you took damage, a fraction of what went to Stamina would go to Health.  That fraction was smaller for barbarians with Thick-Skinned, but otherwise it was the same for all classes.

 

We now simply apply damage 1:1 to Stamina (Endurance) and Health, but Health is determined differently for different classes (but always through a multiplier).  Front-line characters are expected to take a lot of abuse and get combat-healed more often, so they have a superior ratio of Endurance to Health.  This will (well, actually it already does in our initial playtests) help prevent front-liners from forcing the party to rest after two fights even when the rest of the group has a lot of per rest abilities and Health left.  The ratios are very easy to tune, but most importantly, it is much, much clearer how everything works.

 

May main gripe about Endurance is that it's a bit silly in combat. let's say you get into a tough and prolonged fight, and your Endurance dwindled to the point where it reaches zero, Health will remain (it's multipliers of Endurance, so unless you're damaged badly, you will fall unconscious and basically faint from exhaustion in the midst of battle). I don't like that fainting, it's far too simulationist to me and not a very fun thing to include in a game.

"Oh no, my character got so tired that he fainted! Look, he's snoring on the battlefield."

Very few CRPGs have included that kind of thing. Exhaustion is a boring mechanic, in line with the need for your hero to go the bathroom, or with having them sleep-deprived if they don't nap regularly, or with forcing them to eat and drink often enough.

It also becomes awkward in the combat situation itself. What to do with a character that fainted from exhaustion? Will it lie there, like foes subjected to the Sleep spell in D&D? Is it just one hit from a kill then, like a coup de grace? Or is it like it is now in PoE, almost a Sanctuary spell? 

Real fantasy heroes don't faint from exhaustion, not even the hobbits in LotR!

 

Also, I don't want to see those super-high D3 health numbers. At least hide them then under the hood, and show us a fifth of them or something in the number displayed in the UI.

 

Finally, Endurance and Constitution are two RPG concepts that easily can get confused. No need for both of them in a CRPG, IMHO. I'd much rather see that Endurance gets turned into Fatigue, which results in lower DT, harder to-hit-rolls, and weaker damage if you land a hit, to mention a few possibilities. In this way, Fatigue and interesting Maims, will still satisfy any simulationist effects that the game may or may not need. If we'd settle with Fatigue, it would need proper feedback on that in the UI, and including the combat log, but it won't be a number on the character portrait. Rather, it would be cool if the portrait looked weak, like in M&M X (just kidding, OTT). But some Fatique icon would suffice, showing that the character is subject to Fatigue, that's all.

Edited September 13, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Sensuki]

How would this affect Monks and their wound system? Currently wounds temporarily grant a bonus to the health pool so if this Health = Healing system were implemented, would Monks not be open to continual healing as long as they stacked up wounds?

 

Just a thought.

That's a good point, I would just say that the damage that they don't receive immediately to Health would not be immediately received to their Stamina Pool instead. That's actually how I thought it already worked though, but I may be wrong.

Edited September 13, 2014 by Sensuki

[Seari]

I don't mind the current health & endurance UI, but I'm not a fan of the separated health system in the first place.

 

Don't have a problem with the idea of your character being KO'd, they just need to improve the AI to make it so that enemies can kill your unconscious character. Basically they have to make it more dangerous, so you don't want your character to get KO'd. Unlike how it is now where they just take a power nap.

Edited September 13, 2014 by Seari

[IndiraLightfoot]

"Power nap" indeed!

 

I do mind that heroes get KO's from exhaustion, it just doesn't fit the genre. This isn't the Sims, where your "toons" wet themselves or faint if not pampered properly.

Edited September 13, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Sensuki]

Well I imagine without drugs to stop pain/exhaustion you'll be pretty stuffed after getting hit with a warhammer a few times right ?

Edited September 13, 2014 by Sensuki

[Seari]

Who needs drugs when you have soul power!

[IndiraLightfoot]

Well I imagine without drugs to stop pain/exhaustion you'll be pretty stuffed after getting hit with a warhammer a few times right ?

IRL, absolutely!

Iin a fantasy setting, playing heroic figures, that logic ought to dissipate considerably. It's not even simulationist anyway. If an enemy has super-high DT, the fight can go on and on and on. My record is 20 minutes (prolly a bug), but those guards didn't faint from exhaustion, and nor did my characters. And how fun would it be if a few misses (just as exhausting as hits) led to your hero lying there on the cave floor, dripping in sweat and drowning in degradation?

Edited September 13, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Silent Winter]

However when you heal, ALL healing converts HEALTH into STAMINA, so as you heal, your Health pool is drained and it refills your stamina. Once you run out of Health, you cannot heal yourself any more - as in the lore there is no 'true' healing magic that can heal health, and you must work with your remaining Stamina only.

 

 Health cannot be reduced by damage, so when you take damage, you take stamina damage only and your portrait fills up with blood.

I actually thought this was how it was going to work when I originally heard the idea of the stamina+health pools.  Seeing the 2 go down at once in the BB gave me momentary confusion (only momentary though).

The system is ok as is (allowing for incoming changes by the devs with 1:1 damage and different ratios) but I would find your suggestion a little more intuitive.

[BillyCorgan]

 

Or something like that ? 

[PrimeJunta]

The only downside of this is the "simulationist" one. Having both health and endurance go down as you're being clobbered makes more intuitive sense (you're simultaneously getting exhausted and hurt), whereas in your variant health is a completely abstract "healing pool" with no easy rationalization for how it works. (Although admittedly a rationalization for any HP-based system has got to be pretty thin.)

 

I don't find the current system particularly confusing, but I wouldn't object to this one either. Both get the job done.

[Sensuki]

Or something like that ?

Gotta be careful about size, when you shrink that back to it's size in game, anyone who has worse eyes than me (I can read small text and I can read text from long distances away) will not be able to read that.

[BillyCorgan]

Too bad, but you're probably right...  ^^