RTS games!

[Namutree]

I think the issue for me, aside from the insane pace of the things, is autonomy. The gameplay design of that style of RTS deliberately strips as much autonomy as possible from your units in order to force you to micromanage as much as possible. If they thought they could get away with making you tie the shoelaces for every single unit you had on the field, they'd make you do that too. The attitude is that if your units had even the slightest hint of intelligence and common sense, that'd be "cheating". I'm their commander, not their bloody nanny.

 

I play a little bit of AoE2, because my sister asks me to. At the very basic level I'm annoyed right away that to do scouting, I have to manually move my scout to exactly where I want, and have to remember to keep queuing up moves for it while I do all the other busywork. Why can't I just give it an order to go "scout the fog"? I can do it well enough in Civilization, even if it's suboptimal. Give me the choice. And don't get me started on how any resources carried by a villager instantly vanishes into thin air the moment you (mis)click them onto a different resource.

 

My preference in games is completely the opposite. When I play the Sims, I set maximum autonomy and let my Sims do whatever they wish, intervening only in situations where a required action such as repairing a broken appliance isn't supported by the AI.

Ironically, that Tzar game I mentioned; lets you do just that. You can assign certain units (or all of them) to the ai, and you can even give them broad goals. It's pretty cool. For effective play it's pretty much needed since the battles in that game get extremely crazy.

[Namutree]

With a strapped-on multiplayer? Sure.

But majority of the player-base just wants the campaign.

That's why trying to move classic RTS model into F2P territory simply didn't work.

 

I have literally never met anyone who primarily cared about the campaign for any RTS; except for Total War. Every RTS player I know cares about multiplayer 10x more than the single player campaign. 

[aluminiumtrioxid]

I'm partial to Supreme Commander. Size does matter in an RTS.

[Malcador]

SupCom certainly got the scale down, did like the ability to multiple monitors and a split screen.

[Gorgon]

It has already been stated, but it can't be said enough that the whole concept of measuring skill by 'actions per second' as they do with some professional gamers is completely moronic. It just means that there is something wrong with the UI or the core design if how fast you can click a building and queue units has any effect on the outcome. 

 

I have played a lot of Homeworld and I must have played every Rome/Shogun game and enjoyed them a lot. Starcraft type games I could never get into. Granted there is a lot of frantic clicking in Homeworld. I dunno if knowing all the shortcuts makes you win games, but it definately helps. 

[IndiraLightfoot]

Heh, to me the most difficult part is tracking all the simultaneous action decently, juggling quick decisions, strategizing ahead, and then, keeping my cool.

[Namutree]

It has already been stated, but it can't be said enough that the whole concept of measuring skill by 'actions per second' as they do with some professional gamers is completely moronic. It just means that there is something wrong with the UI or the core design if how fast you can click a building and queue units has any effect on the outcome. 

 

I have played a lot of Homeworld and I must have played every Rome/Shogun game and enjoyed them a lot. Starcraft type games I could never get into. Granted there is a lot of frantic clicking in Homeworld. I dunno if knowing all the shortcuts makes you win games, but it definately helps. 

Being able to click things fast and precise is needed at the advanced levels, but strategy is still what determines the outcome. In a way it's like street fighter; it's not just judgement. It's judgement, precision, and speed rolled together in a lovely combination.

[IndiraLightfoot]

That said, watching HelpingHans take on USA (a player name), for instance, in COH2, I do realize that his number of clicks and the precision of them are far, far superior to mine, so at the very top levels, the need for speed and precision is pretty paramount - also the ability to recover from setbacks. HelpingHans excel at that.

Edited September 11, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[pmp10]

 

With a strapped-on multiplayer? Sure.

But majority of the player-base just wants the campaign.

That's why trying to move classic RTS model into F2P territory simply didn't work.

I have literally never met anyone who primarily cared about the campaign for any RTS; except for Total War. Every RTS player I know cares about multiplayer 10x more than the single player campaign.

 

Some time ago Blizzard admitted that about half of Starcraft 2 players never tried to play the game online.

You can imagine what the numbers would look for a less multiplayer-oriented title.

[Sensuki]

RTS games were super fun on LANs in the 90s and early 2000s. LANs have died out now due to the Internet and ****ing DC++ (now torrenting I guess).

 

My fav RTS games:

 

Warcraft 2

Total Annihilation: Kingdoms

Age of Empires II: The Conquerors (but a big .!. to AoE2 HD, boooo)

Starcraft: Brood War

C&C Red Alert 2

Battle Realms

Age of Mythology

Empire Earth

Warcraft 3: Frozen Throne

C&C Generals (NOT ZERO HOUR)

Company of Heroes

I also enjoyed Medieval Total War 2, but that's not quite the same due to it's turn-based strategical map.

 

I wish I'd played more of Dark Reign 2 as well.

[Gorgon]

DC++ killed off LANs. How ?. 

[Monte Carlo]

It has already been stated, but it can't be said enough that the whole concept of measuring skill by 'actions per second' as they do with some professional gamers is completely moronic. It just means that there is something wrong with the UI or the core design if how fast you can click a building and queue units has any effect on the outcome. 

 

I have played a lot of Homeworld and I must have played every Rome/Shogun game and enjoyed them a lot. Starcraft type games I could never get into. Granted there is a lot of frantic clicking in Homeworld. I dunno if knowing all the shortcuts makes you win games, but it definately helps. 

 

Hmmm. Not so sure I agree. In CoH, for example, apm is vital but so is micro. And micro is contigent on a deep understanding of unit values, counters, cover and mechanics. There's a lot more going on in there, and because of RNG it's less math-and-click than StarCraft.

[Gorgon]

What does micro refer to. Micro manage, as in optimising various automatic operations manually.

[Gorgon]

Keeping track of lots of simultaneous developments and figthing several skirmishes at once, that's kinda what RTS is to me. If you don't enjoy filling up your numpad with hotgroups then it's not for you. However simple actions like ordering or changing research and production should be so effective that being a little better with the mouse has no impact.  

[Monte Carlo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igyQ170VtxY

[Gizmo]

1 : Follwing Homeworld Shipbreakers with interest

I'm interested, but it looks like a Homeworld themed Ground Control... Which isn't necessarily bad, but it's not space battles.

 

I genrerally dislike RTS gams that center around various production and research buildings. They tend to lack tactics and wind up being strategy games instead. 

The race for research and resource dominate everything.

Yes I know what RTS stands for, but I like to have both tactics and strategy.

Myth TFL & Myth 2 are the series for you then [a favorite]; but you have to like fantasy RTS.

No bases, no replenishing lost units. (The clip is Multiplayer skirmish... not the campaign.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0t3paCm21E

 

If you like Myth already... Bungie loosely based their Myth setting on Glen Cooke's "The Black Company" novels.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Gizmo

[Sensuki]

DC++ killed off LANs. How ?. 

 

The majority of users ended up going to leech (in Australia anyway due to our **** internet). There was a sharp decline in active games played at LANs after the release of DC++.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Sensuki

[Sensuki]

THIS is micro

 

[Gizmo]

"Blood & Magic" is an oddball guilty pleasure... but not a bad game. It was the first D&D RTS.

 

It was a base builder in the sense that four locations on the maps could accept the building of one's choice, from among those their army could build.

 

The game shipped ~without its intro cinema, but the file game with the demo, and simply copying it over allows the retail game to find it and use it.

**When Interplay released the demo of it in one of its anthology compilations... they seem to have accidentally included the full source code to the "Tigre" engine that it uses.

 

Edited September 11, 2014 by Gizmo

[Gorgon]

THIS is micro

 

So micro means playing the game well.

 

Do you guys even know ?

[Sensuki]

There's five aspects of playing an RTS well.

 

Micro - finite control of individual units in the game

Macro - control of strategical resources in the game, your economy, unit limits, upgrades etc etc

Tactics - the tactics you apply in the combat of the game, such as positioning, microing injured units back, which units you attack etc etc

Strategy - your overall strategy in the long term - such as "don't allow the enemy to get their second gold mind etc etc"

Metagaming - knowledge of the tactics/strategies etc etc that your opponent may use in the game, exploits, tricks etc etc

[aluminiumtrioxid]

It has already been stated, but it can't be said enough that the whole concept of measuring skill by 'actions per second' as they do with some professional gamers is completely moronic. It just means that there is something wrong with the UI or the core design if how fast you can click a building and queue units has any effect on the outcome. 

 

Yeah, pretty much this. My deep and abiding love for SupCom has just as much to do with the existence of a pause function as with its other nice features (like giant laser deathbots and the ability to bathe half the map in nuclear fire).

[Sensuki]

APM is helpful, but it's not required. APM means your skill ceiling is higher than other people's, but you have to actually reach that ceiling with the rest of your play.

 

It also largely depends on the game.

 

Age of Empires 2 is more about macro, in Starcraft micro plays more of a part.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Sensuki

[Nonek]

I still have a fond recollection of Warhammer: Shadow of the Horned Rat and Dark Omen. The non linearity of the campaign in Shadows was enormously enjoyable, and the difficulty was refreshingly challenging if one did not abuse the Amber Mage. Dark Omens UI was of course a massive improvement, as was the gameplay in general, but a lot of features and content were removed that make it far less satisfying.

 

Edit: When are GOG going to release these?

Edited September 11, 2014 by Nonek

[Orogun01]

I've yet to find an RTS that let's me use my full knowledge of warfare tactics