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Zeckul

Is it just me or combat is really tedious?

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This post will probably get me run out of town, but for me, combat is a bit tedious due to TMI (too much information). Im particularly turned off by rock/paper/scissors type situations. For example, Sawyer recently pointed out that one Magic Missile type spell attack Will while another attacks Fort (or whatever), or another example being Sensuki's illustration of attacking a beetle with a slashing weapon and only doing 1 HP damage. So in my mind I envision having to hover the cursor over every enemy (or consult the Beastiary), and then switch weapons / spell back and forth or risk doing little to no damage. Im not saying this system is wrong, the problem lies with me, but when Im confronted with too much minutiae then I start to lose interest. I had the same problem with D&D 3.5. Its me, not PoE. :(

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Once you know the 

 

This post will probably get me run out of town, but for me, combat is a bit tedious due to TMI (too much information). Im particularly turned off by rock/paper/scissors type situations. For example, Sawyer recently pointed out that one Magic Missile type spell attack Will while another attacks Fort (or whatever), or another example being Sensuki's illustration of attacking a beetle with a slashing weapon and only doing 1 HP damage. So in my mind I envision having to hover the cursor over every enemy (or consult the Beastiary), and then switch weapons / spell back and forth or risk doing little to no damage. Im not saying this system is wrong, the problem lies with me, but when Im confronted with too much minutiae then I start to lose interest. I had the same problem with D&D 3.5. Its me, not PoE. :(

 

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Im not saying this system is wrong, the problem lies with me, but when Im confronted with too much minutiae then I start to lose interest. I had the same problem with D&D 3.5. Its me, not PoE. :(

I share your concern, and it's not just you, it's how the IE games played. In a low-level campaign like BG or IWD there just wasn't that much physical resistance or magical defense to deal with, it was a matter of focusing fire, keeping the low AC characters out of reach and using a few buffs/healing spells as necessary. The level of player involvement and micromanagement seen here is more reminiscent of high-level mage duels in BG2 than anything we've seen in BG1 or IWD. This may be a matter of taste but I think that this is not a good direction for this game. I'd rather not have to work too much for ordinary battles against ordinary monsters and leave the deep tactical thinking for boss battles. It's a matter of pacing and keeping the player's interest - they're going to lose mine quickly at this rate.

Edited by Zeckul
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Wel-l-l... I just started another BG1 playthrough and actually some of the fairly early fights are quite intricate. The adventuring party that tells you a cheerful hello when coming out the Nashkel mines on the other side, for example. That's not easily winnable with your basic trashmob tactic.

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Wel-l-l... I just started another BG1 playthrough and actually some of the fairly early fights are quite intricate. The adventuring party that tells you a cheerful hello when coming out the Nashkel mines on the other side, for example. That's not easily winnable with your basic trashmob tactic.

Yes. But that's just one out of at least 30 different fights you've had so far in the game, and you can just walk around these guys if you find them too difficult (or you could buy 3 potions of explosion, but cheese is cheese :p) Same goes for the ogrillions on the road to Nashkel, or the Ogre in Coast Way - all these fights are optional. 

 

For the most part areas in Baldur's Gate have small groups here and there that are easy to dispatch. PoE seems to combine the enemy density of IWD with the intricacy of high-level BG2 battles.

Edited by Zeckul
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I share Zekul's preference for less involved fights most of the time with a few tougher ones here and there, and KaineParker's opinion the game currently overloads you with information.

 

I also think that no matter what you call the battle system, information must be managed properly, otherwise the task becomes hard inan artificial way, i.e. not because it requires analysis and an inventive approach tomsolving a problem, but because you struggle to cope with all the informarion that's being poured onto you.

 

With a rounds-based system like in the IE games, all you needed to concentrate your attention on was the character whose turn it is. In rhe BB of PoE (I emphasize it's the BB because I see this as a problem with the beta that should bensolved in the final release) you have to monitor the "cooldown period" of your six characters plus however many enemies you are fighting. I think this is simply impractical. Not a challenging game, but an inconveniently designed fighhting system.


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If there's one good thing that's come out of the beta for me, it's getting better at these fights. When PoE is released, I'll know what I'll be doing and be better prepared. If I wasn't following the forums and hadn't tested it myself, I wouldn't have known about the completely acceptable nude strategy. I imagine there may be a steep learning curve for those who haven't played the beta.

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Wel-l-l... I just started another BG1 playthrough and actually some of the fairly early fights are quite intricate. The adventuring party that tells you a cheerful hello when coming out the Nashkel mines on the other side, for example. That's not easily winnable with your basic trashmob tactic.

I've played BG about 12 times... I have never left Naskel mines through some other side. I didn't even know you could. I always left the way I came in. Well; I guess you learn something new every day.

Edited by Namutree

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Wel-l-l... I just started another BG1 playthrough and actually some of the fairly early fights are quite intricate. The adventuring party that tells you a cheerful hello when coming out the Nashkel mines on the other side, for example. That's not easily winnable with your basic trashmob tactic.

I remember getting my ass handed to me in that fight back in 1998. Other than my initial learning curve to understand the basics of combat, that was one of the first difficult fights that I remember. Of course, it too can be laughably easy with the right tactics in use.


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Wel-l-l... I just started another BG1 playthrough and actually some of the fairly early fights are quite intricate. The adventuring party that tells you a cheerful hello when coming out the Nashkel mines on the other side, for example. That's not easily winnable with your basic trashmob tactic.

I remember getting my ass handed to me in that fight back in 1998. Other than my initial learning curve to understand the basics of combat, that was one of the first difficult fights that I remember. Of course, it too can be laughably easy with the right tactics in use.

 

Right tactic being having a lvl 3 wizard and casting Horror at that group. Very intricate lol..

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Wel-l-l... I just started another BG1 playthrough and actually some of the fairly early fights are quite intricate. The adventuring party that tells you a cheerful hello when coming out the Nashkel mines on the other side, for example. That's not easily winnable with your basic trashmob tactic.

 

Plain BG, BG + EasyTutu, or BG:EE?


"You're a fool if you believe I would trust your benevolence. Step aside and you and your lackeys will be unhurt."


 


 


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Wel-l-l... I just started another BG1 playthrough and actually some of the fairly early fights are quite intricate. The adventuring party that tells you a cheerful hello when coming out the Nashkel mines on the other side, for example. That's not easily winnable with your basic trashmob tactic.

I remember getting my ass handed to me in that fight back in 1998. Other than my initial learning curve to understand the basics of combat, that was one of the first difficult fights that I remember. Of course, it too can be laughably easy with the right tactics in use.

 

Right tactic being having a lvl 3 wizard and casting Horror at that group. Very intricate lol..

 

I think I did something like lob an entangle at the party, kill the enemies that resisted and came to attack, and then took out the rest of them from range. Magic missiles (from a wand or innate casting ability) directed at anyone who was casting a spell to interrupt them.

 

At slightly higher levels a fifth level wizard dropping a fireball or a skull trap or two works wonders too.

Edited by Marceror

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If there's one good thing that's come out of the beta for me, it's getting better at these fights. When PoE is released, I'll know what I'll be doing and be better prepared. If I wasn't following the forums and hadn't tested it myself, I wouldn't have known about the completely acceptable nude strategy. I imagine there may be a steep learning curve for those who haven't played the beta.

I certainly hope walking around naked doesn't give significant bonuses in the final game, I mean... come on! Who wants to command a party of nudists?

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When the game has penalties on armour, I'm not going to wear it - especially for my ranged characters. I'll wear it for my tank but that's it. I did make a post about it in another thread. It's a perfectly viable tactic and Josh seems to be okay with it. Josh did say they're tweaking the A.I. to target ranged characters and having enemies with ESP to find out which characters will have lower stamina, but there are work arounds with that.

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There's a difference between wearing no armor and wearing no clothes.

 

Yes, one is a tactical choice, the other is a lifestyle!

 

Anyways, I think we might be making too much of the intricate nature of combat. It is a new system STILL. We all talk about BG and how little thought could be put into so off the fights. What if, however, you think of the beetles as skeletons. Would you attack a mob of skeletons (wasn't there a low-level graveyard in NWN2? I forget. I am old) with your spears and pikes would you? Even if you had a long sword specialization, it is better to switch over your morning star and bash away. This encounter didn't foreshadow that every encounter required a dedicated weapon set, so we might take a deep breath and not assume that the beetles do either. 

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There's a difference between wearing no armor and wearing no clothes.

 

Yes, one is a tactical choice, the other is a lifestyle!

 

Anyways, I think we might be making too much of the intricate nature of combat. It is a new system STILL. We all talk about BG and how little thought could be put into so off the fights. What if, however, you think of the beetles as skeletons. Would you attack a mob of skeletons (wasn't there a low-level graveyard in NWN2? I forget. I am old) with your spears and pikes would you? Even if you had a long sword specialization, it is better to switch over your morning star and bash away. This encounter didn't foreshadow that every encounter required a dedicated weapon set, so we might take a deep breath and not assume that the beetles do either. 

 

 

1: NWN2 isn't an IE game.

 

2: Whether or not it was a good idea to switch weapons depended on how specialized your pc was in that weapon type. I can't remember how much better crushing weapons were against skeletons exactly, but the difference between crushing weapons and others wasn't this extreme. 

Edited by Namutree

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There's a difference between wearing no armor and wearing no clothes.

 

Yes, one is a tactical choice, the other is a lifestyle!

 

Anyways, I think we might be making too much of the intricate nature of combat. It is a new system STILL. We all talk about BG and how little thought could be put into so off the fights. What if, however, you think of the beetles as skeletons. Would you attack a mob of skeletons (wasn't there a low-level graveyard in NWN2? I forget. I am old) with your spears and pikes would you? Even if you had a long sword specialization, it is better to switch over your morning star and bash away. This encounter didn't foreshadow that every encounter required a dedicated weapon set, so we might take a deep breath and not assume that the beetles do either. 

 

 

1: NWN2 isn't an IE game.

 

2: Whether or not it was a good idea to switch weapons depended on how specialized your pc was in that weapon type. I can't remember how much better crushing weapons were against skeletons exactly, but the difference between crushing weapons and others wasn't this extreme. 

 

 

It was an Obsidian game. It was a game based of a D&D rule set. IE games were based of a D&D rule set. Most CRPG's adaptations of D&D rule sets implemented skeletons in a consistent manner. It follows that discussing skeletons as they were implemented in NWN2 is similar enough to IE games for inclusion. In addition, you are working on the assumption that IE games are the only previous system that is usable as a comparison for the current game. So, your point is useless. 

 

As for 2, half damage is a big deal in my book with a mostly static hit/miss system. In PoE you have to take into account DR, grazes and so on, so it is not particularly surprising to see 1 point of damage. Even with non-crushing weapons, you are not doing all 1 point hits. It is perfect possible to clear the area without crushing weapons as well.

 

EDIT - Also, apparently in 3ED, skeletons had a DR of 5 vs. non-blunt, which is huge. 

 

All of this is besides the point. The point is, beetles can be beaten with any weapon (didn't Sensuki do a 94 crit with a crossbow?); crushing weapons make this easier; this is one encounter in a limited beta that can be made easier with specific weapon selections. It does not follow that all encounters will require such micromanaging (if you call weapon selection that) to succeed on NORMAL.

Edited by DCParry

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Well, I'm a bit on the basic side when it comes to combat myself (I prefer it to be easier), but I think it's worth mentioning that for PoE to succeed it has to be accessible to a broader base of players than truly hardcore IE fans who have already bought it for the most part.  In that sense I think BG-esque easy trash mobs with more intricate special encounters would be better, with the option of cranking difficulty up to what we're seeing here in the beta if one prefers it. 

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I'm sure there'll be a good set of Pantaloons to wear over your breeches.

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1: NWN2 isn't an IE game.

 

 

 

 

 

2: Whether or not it was a good idea to switch weapons depended on how specialized your pc was in that weapon type. I can't remember how much better crushing weapons were against skeletons exactly, but the difference between crushing weapons and others wasn't this extreme. 

 

 

It was an Obsidian game. It was a game based of a D&D rule set. IE games were based of a D&D rule set. Most CRPG's adaptations of D&D rule sets implemented skeletons in a consistent manner. It follows that discussing skeletons as they were implemented in NWN2 is similar enough to IE games for inclusion. In addition, you are working on the assumption that IE games are the only previous system that is usable as a comparison for the current game. So, your point is useless. 

 

As for 2, half damage is a big deal in my book with a mostly static hit/miss system. In PoE you have to take into account DR, grazes and so on, so it is not particularly surprising to see 1 point of damage. Even with non-crushing weapons, you are not doing all 1 point hits. It is perfect possible to clear the area without crushing weapons as well.

 

EDIT - Also, apparently in 3ED, skeletons had a DR of 5 vs. non-blunt, which is huge. 

 

All of this is besides the point. The point is, beetles can be beaten with any weapon (didn't Sensuki do a 94 crit with a crossbow?); crushing weapons make this easier; this is one encounter in a limited beta that can be made easier with specific weapon selections. It does not follow that all encounters will require such micromanaging (if you call weapon selection that) to succeed on NORMAL.

 

I never said that the enemies in poe could not be beaten without crushing weapons. My point is that the importance of using the right weapon against petty enemies was never this extreme in the IE games.

 

In fact; I was playing BG1 just an hour ago. For my fighter who has 3 proficiency in swords to switch to a different weapon type would likely have been a mistake. The skeletons have a 50% resistance to my sword, but low health in general; so accuracy is more important than damage for my strong character. 

 

Situations like this don't look like they will be common in poe, but we do have a limited pool of enemies in the beta. We'll see how it turns out, but my impression is that poe puts at least 50% more focus on damage type resistances/weaknesses than any of the IE games.

 

EDIT: I decided to focus on the main point.

Edited by Namutree
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"Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking.

 

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Im not saying this system is wrong, the problem lies with me, but when Im confronted with too much minutiae then I start to lose interest. I had the same problem with D&D 3.5. Its me, not PoE. :(

I share your concern, and it's not just you, it's how the IE games played. In a low-level campaign like BG or IWD there just wasn't that much physical resistance or magical defense to deal with, it was a matter of focusing fire, keeping the low AC characters out of reach and using a few buffs/healing spells as necessary. The level of player involvement and micromanagement seen here is more reminiscent of high-level mage duels in BG2 than anything we've seen in BG1 or IWD. This may be a matter of taste but I think that this is not a good direction for this game. I'd rather not have to work too much for ordinary battles against ordinary monsters and leave the deep tactical thinking for boss battles. It's a matter of pacing and keeping the player's interest - they're going to lose mine quickly at this rate.

 

 I'm the opposite, as I get bored  if there's too many bs trash mobs to mindlessly wade through.  The more tactical & tougher the fights are, is what keeps the game intense and make it more interesting for me.  (combat wise)  

 

  Having nothing but easy fights except for boss battles would be HORRENDOUS.  You guys must be huge storyfags, huh ?

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 I'm the opposite, as I get bored  if there's too many bs trash mobs to mindlessly wade through.  The more tactical & tougher the fights are, is what keeps the game intense and make it more interesting for me.  (combat wise)  

 

 

  Having nothing but easy fights except for boss battles would be HORRENDOUS.  You guys must be huge storyfags, huh ?

 

Not all non-bosses qualify as trash mobs. As far as I know no one has suggested all non-bosses should be easy.


"Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking.

 

I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic.

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I'm the opposite, as I get bored  if there's too many bs trash mobs to mindlessly wade through.  The more tactical & tougher the fights are, is what keeps the game intense and make it more interesting for me.  (combat wise)  

 

  Having nothing but easy fights except for boss battles would be HORRENDOUS.  You guys must be huge storyfags, huh ?

I am interested in the story, the Endless Paths and especially the Stronghold. Hopefully I make it long enough to experience them. Perhaps autoattack will be a viable strategy? :lol:


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I'm the opposite, as I get bored  if there's too many bs trash mobs to mindlessly wade through.  The more tactical & tougher the fights are, is what keeps the game intense and make it more interesting for me.  (combat wise)  

 

  Having nothing but easy fights except for boss battles would be HORRENDOUS.  You guys must be huge storyfags, huh ?

I am interested in the story, the Endless Paths and especially the Stronghold. Hopefully I make it long enough to experience them. Perhaps autoattack will be a viable strategy? :lol:

 

I'm interested in the story too, but I also enjoy having interesting and tactical combats and not just playing fire and forget.  

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