Discussion: the PoE beta xp system

[adam77]

Wasteland 2 is a good example of the classic XP system. And as such should be in rpg games.

[Hellraiser789]

So ive never played the beta, but from watching videos and reading discussions I think I have a decent grasp of how things work. 

 

As mentioned in previous posts, I think there should be lots of different ways to get experience. Questing is one obvious way. Combat is another. However, the combat xp has to be balanced to avoid grinding. Killing a bunch of lvl 1 goblins when you are lvl 12 should give relatively nothing. However, adding in little things like clearing a dungeon (whether that means steathing through or fighting your way through) should grant xp. I'll describe a couple of examples:

 

 

 

Cave 1 has 10 goblins in it with a chest that has a battle axe and a gem. 

 

Option 1: Party enters the cave, kills everything in sight, but Sagani dies. Each goblin grants 10xp. If the entire cave is explored, 200xp is given. This offers a total of 300xp. Also, there should be an update in the journal (with a notice in the combat log?) that says - "Today I found a cave in ZONE A, and when I entered I found goblins inside. I killed them all and explored the rest of the cave, but Sagani was killed during the fighting with the goblins (or by a trap,etc). Found a chest and it had a cool gem a sweet battle axe inside!"

 

Total XP: 300

 

Option 2: Party enters cave, sneaks past the goblins and opens the chest. Entire cave is explored, 200xp is gained. Then when leaving, the party gains an additional 100xp (equivalent to killing the goblins) and a journal update. This still grants 300xp, and the journal entry says something like -"Today I found a cave in ZONE A, and when I entered I found goblins inside. I stayed hidden and explored the rest of the cave. Found a chest and it had a cool gem a sweet battle axe inside!" Perhaps going back in the cave would show that the goblins had left and a journal update could say something like "I explored CAVE A in ZONE A again to see what those goblins were up to. Turns out they all left, probably because all of their treasure was stolen? " (Goblins do not have a reason to stay inside the cave, so they leave)

 

Total XP: 300

 

Option 3: Party enters cave, only kills 5 of the goblins (giving 50xp total), grabs the chest and leaves without exploring the entire cave. Upon leaving, they gain 100xp for discovering the cave (or an amount proportionate to the amount of cave explored) and the journal entry says - "Today I found a cave in ZONE A, and when I entered I found goblins inside. I killed a few of them and explored some of the cave. Found a chest and it had a cool gem a sweet battle axe inside! Maybe I should go back and explore the rest of it later?" This only gives 150xp, as the entire cave wasnt explored and all of the goblins were not killed. Similar to option 1, the goblins will no longer be in the cave if the player returns, but the player would get the experience & journal entry for discovering this (similar to option 2), as well as for fully exploring the cave. This would offer an additional 150xp (50 xp for finding out the goblins left, and 100xp for exploring the cave) as well as a journal update.

 

Total XP: 150 (or 300 if later you returned)

 

Option 4: Party enters cave, sneaks past the goblins and explores the entire cave. 200xp is gained for exploring the cave and 100xp is given for leaving the cave (proportionately less if goblins are killed because goblins grant xp). Returning to the cave would reveal the goblins are still there and killing the goblins would grant 0xp, but would offer the reward and loot as incentive (sneaking past them to grab the loot = 0xp as well). The journal entry would read like this: "Today I found a cave in ZONE A, and when I entered I found goblins inside. I stayed hidden and explored the rest of the cave. There was a chest inside, but I did not open it. Maybe I should go back to see what was inside?" (it could also say "I explored the cave, but did not find a reason for the goblins to be there. Maybe I should go back to investigate the cave further at another time?") Exploring the cave later would show that the goblins are still there, as they are still guarding the treasure. The journal would say something like "I explored CAVE A in ZONE A again to see what those goblins were up to. Turns out they had a chest, which after killing/sneaking past them, I found a cool gem and a sweet battle axe inside!"

 

Total XP: 300

 

Options 1 would be for combat xp fans, option 2 for quest fans, and options 3 and 4 would be for balance and more options. I mean these options might require a lot of work, but I feel they would be worth it in the end because they offer more interactivity to the player. They might need some more reworking but I think the idea is there.

 

Also, on big open maps, it would be like exploring the map would offer proportional xp and journal entries (maybe given after rest or transition to a new area to simulate you recording things in your journal?), and killing monsters would offer combat xp as well. However, when you leave an area, you record in your journal your actions (killing monsters or sneaking past them) and if you didnt get the xp from killing them, you receive the xp when you enter a new area, (Proportionate to how many you DIDNT kill) but only if you actually saw them. If you did not see them, they do not get counted or plugged in. Then, if you return and kill them, you will not get any more xp, but you will get a journal entry detailing that you went back and killed them, offering loot as an incentive. However, monster you hadn't seen do not get applied. Discovering new monsters offer new rewards - if you kill them = combat xp. If you sneak past them, you will later earn xp for doing so. Both offer an updated journal entry.

 

This would probably be a rather large project however, so I do not know how feasible such a thing is. But, I think it would be really cool, and would meet both parties' needs, offering a better and more reactive experience for everyone. Also, the journal should be broken into segments, varying with different areas. Just to make things more organized and detailed.

 

PS: I apologize for the ridiculously long post, I started going on and on, but I thought the examples would be the easiest way to explain my view.

[Corto81]

I don't really see the point of discussing it...

 

More options to progress is NEVER bad.

 

You should get XP for exploring, questing and, yes, combat.

 

Even out the questing XP and combat XP by having the non-combat quest option earn you more XP... Pretty simple IMO.

 

...

 

Again, like a lot of stuff so far in beta, some things seem to be changed from the original BG concept, simply for the sake of being different, without actually improving on the original concept.

[mudd1]

I understand the thematic decision to remove kill XP, and the reasons behind it. But there's got to be a solution that maintains some kind of XP rewards for things other than quests. Specific rewards for high value enemies, perhaps. Combat does have an on/off switch - what about XP for completing (or surviving/avoiding/whatevering) encounters? What about exploration XP, including for moving through (stealthily or with facestabbing) enemy-controlled areas? These are all ways to give that sense of encouragement back to core gameplay that seems missing with no combat XP.

 

I appreciate the creativity but I doubt cast invisibility on your thief and sending them in a lawnmower pattern over every map is going to feel like a rewarding endeavour.

[prodigydancer]

Wasteland 2 is a good example of the classic XP system. And as such should be in rpg games.

Yeah, and all CRPGs should be carbon copies of each other.

 

I have many doubts about various PoE mechanics but I applaud Obsidian and Josh in particular for actually making those tough choices and bravely trying new concepts. Some things most probably won't work as expected but it's OK. If you never try anything new the genre will never evolve.

 

I appreciate the creativity but I doubt cast invisibility on your thief and sending them in a lawnmower pattern over every map is going to feel like a rewarding endeavour.

Hey! That's how I played Baldur's Gate.

Edited September 22, 2014 by prodigydancer

[Namutree]

 

Wasteland 2 is a good example of the classic XP system. And as such should be in rpg games.

Yeah, and all CRPGs should be carbon copies of each other.

 

I have many doubts about various PoE mechanics but I applaud Obsidian and Josh in particular for actually making those tough choices and bravely trying new concepts. Some things most probably won't work as expected but it's OK. If you never try anything new the genre will never evolve.

 

New ideas are fine, but nothing new has been introduced to the xp system. Combat xp was removed... and that's all. If taking out features is evolution; then you must think amputees are the next step in human evolution.

 

Not to mention poe was supposed to be nostalgic; not innovative. 

[gkathellar]

 

I understand the thematic decision to remove kill XP, and the reasons behind it. But there's got to be a solution that maintains some kind of XP rewards for things other than quests. Specific rewards for high value enemies, perhaps. Combat does have an on/off switch - what about XP for completing (or surviving/avoiding/whatevering) encounters? What about exploration XP, including for moving through (stealthily or with facestabbing) enemy-controlled areas? These are all ways to give that sense of encouragement back to core gameplay that seems missing with no combat XP.

 

I appreciate the creativity but I doubt cast invisibility on your thief and sending them in a lawnmower pattern over every map is going to feel like a rewarding endeavour.

 

 

I didn't say it was easy to figure out - just that there's got to be more than there is at present.

[adam77]

 

Wasteland 2 is a good example of the classic XP system. And as such should be in rpg games.

Yeah, and all CRPGs should be carbon copies of each other.

 

I have many doubts about various PoE mechanics but I applaud Obsidian and Josh in particular for actually making those tough choices and bravely trying new concepts. Some things most probably won't work as expected but it's OK. If you never try anything new the genre will never evolve.

 

I appreciate the creativity but I doubt cast invisibility on your thief and sending them in a lawnmower pattern over every map is going to feel like a rewarding endeavour.

Hey! That's how I played Baldur's Gate.

 

Ejecting XP from combat is a new concept?

 

 

Wasteland 2 is a good example of the classic XP system. And as such should be in rpg games.

Yeah, and all CRPGs should be carbon copies of each other.

 

I have many doubts about various PoE mechanics but I applaud Obsidian and Josh in particular for actually making those tough choices and bravely trying new concepts. Some things most probably won't work as expected but it's OK. If you never try anything new the genre will never evolve.

 

I appreciate the creativity but I doubt cast invisibility on your thief and sending them in a lawnmower pattern over every map is going to feel like a rewarding endeavour.

Hey! That's how I played Baldur's Gate.

 

I did not mean to literally mimic system from Wasteland 2. Just the concept.

 

Ejecting XP from combat is a new concept for you? Whaoooo, how creative.

 

This leads to a boring fight that I will wherever possible try to avoid at every turn. This does not apply to the activation dialog battle, but I think the detour enemies in a wide arc across the maps.

[adam77]

What about unlocking locked doors and trunks, finding and removing traps? Is it also removed xp rewarding? I think that in all these things listed is a charm of IE games, not only in rapid quest solving.

[Namutree]

What about unlocking locked doors and trunks, finding and removing traps? Is it also removed xp rewarding? I think that in all these things listed is a charm of IE games, not only in rapid quest solving.

They're gone too. Don't you adam? Obsidian is evolving the system by taking things out.

 

Less = More evolved 

[gkathellar]

 

What about unlocking locked doors and trunks, finding and removing traps? Is it also removed xp rewarding? I think that in all these things listed is a charm of IE games, not only in rapid quest solving.

They're gone too. Don't you adam? Obsidian is evolving the system by taking things out.

 

Less = More evolved 

 

 

By caricaturing things you disagree with, you do a disservice to your own position. I'mma just leave these here for you, and see myself out:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_progress

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Largest-scale_trends_in_evolution

[prodigydancer]

Ejecting XP from combat is a new concept for you? Whaoooo, how creative.

Yes, it is.

 

But I'm not a backer so my opinion hardly matters. Although at times it seems I appreciate PoE more than some of the backers which in turn makes me wonder why people give their money to projects they don't like or to people whose point of view they don't share.

Edited September 22, 2014 by prodigydancer

[adam77]

 

Ejecting XP from combat is a new concept for you? Whaoooo, how creative.

Yes, it is.

 

But I'm not a backer so my opinion hardly matters. Although at times it seems I appreciate PoE more than some of the backers which in turn makes me wonder why people give their money to projects they don't like or to people whose point of view they don't share.

 

At the beginning of the Kickstarter campaign I just do not recall that there was talk about this way of xp system.

We'll wait and see how it will eventually look like. 

But I am skeptical about all this

[Namutree]

 

Ejecting XP from combat is a new concept for you? Whaoooo, how creative.

Yes, it is.

 

But I'm not a backer so my opinion hardly matters. Although at times it seems I appreciate PoE more than some of the backers which in turn makes me wonder why people give their money to projects they don't like or to people whose point of view they don't share.

 

That's a can of worms best left unopened...

[Namutree]

 

 

 

By caricaturing things you disagree with, you do a disservice to your own position. I'mma just leave these here for you, and see myself out:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_progress

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Largest-scale_trends_in_evolution

 

None of these are relevant. I read them all. Not one suggest that removing features is an evolution.

Edited September 22, 2014 by Namutree

[Namutree]

 

Ejecting XP from combat is a new concept for you? Whaoooo, how creative.

Yes, it is.

 

But I'm not a backer so my opinion hardly matters. Although at times it seems I appreciate PoE more than some of the backers which in turn makes me wonder why people give their money to projects they don't like or to people whose point of view they don't share.

 

If removing features is an evolution why don't they just remove the whole game? By your logic a blank screen would be the pinnacle of the RPG genre.

 

Dialog? Who needs it? Poe should be innovative; so cut it from the game.

Movement? Poe should evolve; remove it.

Backgrounds? If Obsidian wants to be innovative they should cut them.

[Matt516]

Meh. Combat XP does not an engaging game make. I won't miss it as long as the gameplay is interesting and I feel like I'm being rewarded for exploring.

 

And the polls have been split, for the record. An earlier one was overwhelmingly in favor of no combat XP. Then people kept making new polls, and the majority (myself included in that) fell mostly silent because we'd already said our piece and didn't really feel like there was much point in continuing to talk about it.

 

Combat XP is gone. They're trying something different. That's not gonna change (I dearly hope). And most of the backers are supportive of this change.

Edited September 22, 2014 by Matt516

[archangel979]

Meh. Combat XP does not an engaging game make. I won't miss it as long as the gameplay is interesting and I feel like I'm being rewarded for exploring.

 

And the polls have been split, for the record. An earlier one was overwhelmingly in favor of no combat XP. Then people kept making new polls, and the majority (myself included in that) fell mostly silent because we'd already said our piece and didn't really feel like there was much point in continuing to talk about it.

 

Combat XP is gone. They're trying something different. That's not gonna change (I dearly hope). And most of the backers are supportive of this change.

Less then 0.5% is not most of the backers. Those polls don't mean anything either way, I would just like people to stop using them in any kind of argument.

[Namutree]

Meh. Combat XP does not an engaging game make. I won't miss it as long as the gameplay is interesting and I feel like I'm being rewarded for exploring.

 

And the polls have been split, for the record. An earlier one was overwhelmingly in favor of no combat XP. Then people kept making new polls, and the majority (myself included in that) fell mostly silent because we'd already said our piece and didn't really feel like there was much point in continuing to talk about it.

 

Combat XP is gone. They're trying something different. That's not gonna change (I dearly hope). And most of the backers are supportive of this change.

I don't even miss combat xp; I just thought it was crazy that some one would suggest that cutting features is innovative. I do feel that the lack of any non-quest xp is gonna make the game a lot less fun, but that could be remedied if Obsidian just introduced some kind of replacement. Discovery xp has been suggested more than a few times, and we'll see if Obsidian has the sense to implement it.

[forgottenlor]

I'm not sure I'd call combat xp a feature. Just like I 'm not sure I'd call lockpicking xp a feature. I didn't have a problem with them though. It seems to me the design goals were to make it possible to avoid some combat without the feeling that you're worse off for it. You can solve a problem without fighting and not be penalized by the game for it. I think that's a laudable goal. I also think, though, that many players are saying they feel penalized for entering combat, and that's obviously not good either. And the stealth system isn't working great either, so that needs to be fixed. There are lot's of ways to make the XP system more engaging and combat more rewarding. Awarding minimal combat xp is one solution, improving loot is another. Yet another is making non combat xp for reaching certain areas or goals. I don't think most people are for combat xp, but I do think recent polls suggest that a lot of people don't find the xp system as implemented in the Beta good enough.

[Matt516]

 

 

Meh. Combat XP does not an engaging game make. I won't miss it as long as the gameplay is interesting and I feel like I'm being rewarded for exploring.

 

And the polls have been split, for the record. An earlier one was overwhelmingly in favor of no combat XP. Then people kept making new polls, and the majority (myself included in that) fell mostly silent because we'd already said our piece and didn't really feel like there was much point in continuing to talk about it.

 

Combat XP is gone. They're trying something different. That's not gonna change (I dearly hope). And most of the backers are supportive of this change.

Less then 0.5% is not most of the backers. Those polls don't mean anything either way, I would just like people to stop using them in any kind of argument.

It is a small sample size - that said, it's the only sample they've got. I was just pointing out that regardless of the sample size (could do the math to quantify exactly how representative we expect it to be, but there's really not much point because) the polling that HAS been done shows support for the planned system.

[Namutree]

I'm not sure I'd call combat xp a feature. Just like I 'm not sure I'd call lockpicking xp a feature. I didn't have a problem with them though. It seems to me the design goals were to make it possible to avoid some combat without the feeling that you're worse off for it. You can solve a problem without fighting and not be penalized by the game for it. I think that's a laudable goal. I also think, though, that many players are saying they feel penalized for entering combat, and that's obviously not good either. And the stealth system isn't working great either, so that needs to be fixed. There are lot's of ways to make the XP system more engaging and combat more rewarding. Awarding minimal combat xp is one solution, improving loot is another. Yet another is making non combat xp for reaching certain areas or goals. I don't think most people are for combat xp, but I do think recent polls suggest that a lot of people don't find the xp system as implemented in the Beta good enough.

The design goals are questionable, but that isn't my point. Had they replaced combat-xp with something it would be much more acceptable, but so far Obsidian hasn't. They merely cut the combat-xp and were finished. That is not innovative.

[gkathellar]

Meh. Combat XP does not an engaging game make. I won't miss it as long as the gameplay is interesting and I feel like I'm being rewarded for exploring.

 

Which, at present, is not the case.

[adam77]

This game could have been made by the wishes (create similar IE game // mechanic, visual etc.) of investors, and it is us. Not even a little bit risking the success of the game. And now it's all a bit shaky.

Can someone explain to me from supporting this new xp system, what was wrong with the old system?

[forgottenlor]

This game could have been made by the wishes (create similar IE game // mechanic, visual etc.) of investors, and it is us. Not even a little bit risking the success of the game. And now it's all a bit shaky.

 

Can someone explain to me from supporting this new xp system, what was wrong with the old system?

 

I am not sure anything is per say "wrong" with the old XP system. Let's say though you want to sneak around some opponents or get around them through dialogue. Will the game later on become more difficult, because you didn't enter combat with them? That might encourage you to fight some battles which you wouldn't have to or want to. I think a good system enables players to play how they want to. If you want to fight alot, talk alot or sneak alot, the game should allow that without making one of these the better choice. It should make each path rewarding.  How you achieve that, though, is as we are now seeing, not so easy.