[v278 issue] Stealth mechanics...

[mutonizer]

This will most likely be in multiple parts so I'll reply here as I add more.

 

PART I: Stealth mechanics

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZpbNUPS0KM

 

From this, it seems that Stealth effectiveness is not based on an actual value, but a ratio involving factors based on other characters in a given party.

 

I'm out of words to even start describing how screwed up this mechanic is. It's so irrational that I cannot force my mind to try and find any logic to it. Look at the video, make up your own mind, find your own excuses and reasons....

 

Edit: better quality video.

Edited September 6, 2014 by mutonizer

[Sensuki]

Yeah it's like whole party stealth or something.

 

It should be changed to per character.

[mutonizer]

PART II: Secret Reveal mechanics

 

Video as usual to demonstrate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ip8sY2750n4

 

From this, we can see that:

1) Perception doesn't matter

2) Stealth skill doesn't matter (not shown but I tested with 0 stealth and 10 mechanic)

3) Mechanic below a threshold fails all the time (similar to dialog/cutscenes I'm guessing)

4) Mechanic above a threshold determines your detection range which is, again, automatic and instant.

 

Obvious conclusion are:

1) Why the hell is scouting mode required to detect secrets if the mechanic skill is the one used?

2) You will NEVER find secrets if not in scouting mode. You will ALWAYS find secrets you should find in scouting mode. This mechanic punishes you if you don't always use scouting (you'll never ever find secrets) AND punishes you if you're always in scouting mode (you move at a crawl pace).

3) If you spend even one point in Mechanic, you will want to go full spec into it or risk making it totally worthless and missing out.

 

Once again, I'll let everyone make up their own mind on this, it's just to crazy a mechanic for me to even try to rationalize.

Edited September 6, 2014 by mutonizer

[mutonizer]

As a note to PART 1

 

Just tested editing Stealth skills to 10 for all party members...

This is the result:

 

Now compare with all at 0 stealth, except one guy at 10:

 

Means with the current mechanic, you...I don't even know wtf that means with the current mechanic!

Can't make a maxed out Stealth team though, that's for sure

 

Edited September 6, 2014 by mutonizer

[mutonizer]

PART 3: Why the hell is it even in the game?

 

Below is a video showing most "routes" you can take in the current v278 backers beta on Normal difficulty, and trying to use Scouting/Stealth as best as possible. It's a big long but should demonstrate the issues at hand.

An editor was used to give the main actor 10 stealth, and all other actors 0 stealth. This is the best ratio you can get for 1 character, meaning this will make his own scouting detection radius the smallest possible (see above). What this also means is that in a normal game, it'll be way, way worse than this.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RVjWWBiEzo

 

The only conclusions I can give right now, knowing this is beta, is this:

- Why the hell is there even a scouting mechanic in the game? What is the purpose of it if any?

- What is the point of the Stealth skill? Is there any point whatsoever apart from specific cut-scenes requiring you to have a certain value in it?

- Who comes up with this stuff? What's the logic behind it all? (Alright this isn't a conclusion but really..I mean..come on!)

 

 

 

All solutions I could offer would require massive game design alterations so all I can really do is report what's obviously a totally flawed and irrational game mechanic, and hope someone over there will find a way to make the whole thing function with the time you got left. Left as it is, you'll get nailed to the wall for this I think...

Edited September 6, 2014 by mutonizer

[IndiraLightfoot]

Brutal accounts, mutonizer, but OE needs to hear about stuff like this, which isn't wrapped up in shill-talk, now, rather than later. Thank you for taking the time to debunk the stealth system and secret reveals, etc.

[Matt516]

Yeah, the scounting system as currently implemented is really unintuitive and strange.... Secret detection shouldn't depend on walking around in scouting mode constantly either. Just ends up with a player playing the game on fast speed in scouting mode all the time. Which is pretty degenerative if you ask me...

[Sensuki]

Yeah it would be nice if you could still pixel hunt for hidden caches / detection would automatically be on when you stood still

[mutonizer]

Personally I'd go for something like this:

• Constant check for each character while normal running around.
• Radius of check based on INT and line of sight
• Check is a random roll d100 + PER (or PER/RES or whatever based on attributes) - DIFF (difficulty of the secret) - DISTANCE
• Any result above 0 means that the character notices something close by ("Hey, something weird here!"), hinting that there is something, but you're not sure yet what or where. You can explore more carefully, ignore it or pixel hunt.
• Any result above 50 (or whatever) means that the character finds it and it's revealed.

That way, you don't have to worry about them at any point, exploration still rewarded and and there is a chance for great things happening (above your normal chance to find something) and **** ups happening (damn, just wasn't paying attention and you run past it too fast!)

Edited September 6, 2014 by mutonizer

[Metalloman]

This thread explain soooo much!

 

 

Thanks for having found out, @mutonizer. this explains why my rogue is so bad in finding traps and hidden spots...

 

I hope this will be fixed ASAP!

[Matt516]

Personally I'd go for something like this: [sNIP]

 

I like it. I like it a lot.

[Fiebras]

It seems atm all the enemy detection ranges are all the same and the enemy placement makes it currently impossible to sneak past anything.

Thankfully that can be fixed with ajusting values for stealth and detection along with moving enemies.

 

The secret finding thing and party-wide stealth aproach need to get remade or severely adjusted.

Heres hoping theres a stealth tutorial at the start of the game expaining all these things though.

[Tartantyco]

There is an assumption made in your second post that I think is simply false. That is the assumption that you should be able to sneak past everything.

 

First off, in v257 you could easily sneak all the way to the Spiders in front of the Ogre Cave entrance without being noticed in Dyrford Crossing. In v278 they seem to have removed the first Wood Beetle's patrol route, and moved some of the Stone Beetles around. However, you can still sneak to the Spiders in front of the Ogre Cave entrance while only killing the first Wood Beetle. You simply cross down to the Wolves, hug the Western side of the map(Instead of moving East after crossing the river, like you did) down to the bottom of the map, then follow the bottom past the Wolves. You can do this with the default party.

 

Secondly, I don't think sneaking is intended to be an alternative solution to every obstacle. It serves just as big a role in damage avoidance. You can avoid pretty much half the encounters in the Skull Dungeon with the default party, which is pretty decent. I don't think trying to sneak past someone in a corridor 5 meters across and lit by torches, or trying to sneak past Beetles by walking right past their face isn't really reasonable, is it?

 

I assume the reasoning when it comes to Mechanics is that if you can spot traps with it, you should be able to spot secrets with it. It seems more reasonable to put this into perception, but it may have to do with how it affects character builds. Maybe they don't want it attribute related, maybe it makes only a limited few builds viable, maybe detection would become too common, or too uncommon.

 

Overall, I think you have some reasonable points concerning Scouting and related mechanisms, but your analysis also seems pretty blinded by your attitude towards the game, making you ignore alternative approaches, utility, and reasons for the current system. I find this unwillingness of forum denizens to analyse the PoEt systems, and instead use them as an excuse to suggest their own convoluted and frequently incompatible systems, extremely unproductive.

[Fiebras]

After thinking about it for a bit, I think Mechanics serving for both lockpicking and spoting secrets and traps is fine. The only thing this means is that you probably want one character in your party to max mechanics so you can send it around looking for secrets. Much like the rogues of IE games only not limited by class this time around and instead of trap detection and lockpicking being separate skills they are merged in one. May need balancing but seems neat.

 

And the stealth thing is probably so you have ONE party member scout ahead (as the name of scoutng mode suggests) not limited by class (though the rouge seems ideal for this because of its escape ability) so you can prepare apropiately for the encounter (though you could probably use it to avoid certain encounters).  You are free to agree or disagree with the design decision but I dont think you should be able to avoid every single encounter.

 

I agree its weird that stealth is party-wide (maybe its so you can get all your party bpast certain encounter without having all of them invested in stealth which seems the intention). Detection radiuses and enemy placement still need polishing though. Would be nice if patrol routes arent only so you can fight one or two enemies separately instead of all in one encounter and served to further some more stealthy gameplay.

 

EDIT: Also, should this be in the bug forum? Seems more like a thing to be discussed than reported.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Fiebras

[mutonizer]

I posted this here because I didn't think there would be any discussion or arguing about how flawed the entire mechanic was, therefore considered it a core issue to be reported and hopefully improved to make it an interesting and viable approach and/or alternative.

 

How anyone can look at this and not go "wtf" is just beyond me...

 

That said, as I posted before, no more mechanic discussion/reports from me so let's just leave it at that. I don't discuss with crazy...

[Quetzalcoatl]

This might shock you, but a 6-person party sneaking together will have a harder time staying undetected than a single person attempting the same. The way the stealth circles work is a reflection of that.

 

Stealth and trap detection were combined in the Scouting mode presumably to prevent either from becoming useless. I found stealth to be rather useless in the IE games, since most dungeons were trap-filled and I would just stumble upon a trap while I was sneaking (since there way no way to detect traps while stealthing) and it would simply mean taking damage and drawing the attention of nearby enemies.

 

I managed to stealth my way through Dyrford Crossing with a 5-person party just fine. Although I do wonder if enemy groups (like the pack of wolves) should have their stealth circles absorbed into one whole like those of the player characters.

 

I also assume the current circles are placeholders. I would like it if the final 'stealth UI' would be the screen being darkened, and the stealth radius of the party and nearby enemies being illuminated.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Quetzalcoatl

[Metalloman]

This might shock you, but a 6-person party sneaking together will have a harder time staying undetected than a single person attempting the same. The way the stealth circles work is a reflection of that.

 

 

Ok, but as you're saying it, if you select only one party member, the Stealth Circle should reflecting his/her individual ability, a thing that looks like it doesn't apply, looking at mutonizer videos.

Am I wrong?

[mutonizer]

 

Am I wrong?

You are 100% correct...

[Prometheus]

Imo the finding hidden object system is good as it is. If you just run by anything you don't find the secrets. Finding hidden objects with mechanics is also a good idea, you need mechanics for disarming traps, so making it any other skill/attribute is a bad idea.

 

I don't use stealth so I can't say anything to the current system.

[Quetzalcoatl]

 

This might shock you, but a 6-person party sneaking together will have a harder time staying undetected than a single person attempting the same. The way the stealth circles work is a reflection of that.

 

 

Ok, but as you're saying it, if you select only one party member, the Stealth Circle should reflecting his/her individual ability, a thing that looks like it doesn't apply, looking at mutonizer videos.

Am I wrong?

 

In the first video the character in hide armor that stands apart from the 4 party members clearly has a very small circle around him. The 4 party members standing together have bigger circles, which makes perfect sense. So I'm not still not sure what exactly the problem is.

 

It only becomes bigger after killing the party members, which I assume is a bug.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Quetzalcoatl

[agris]

The problem with the above discussion is that there is currently no way to activate stealth on only a single character.

[ctn2003]

I hope they listen to you it seems they are on and off with their listing to feedback. seems like they havet been on the forms all week.