Paradox had 18 QA peeps playing this for weeks?

[Tartantyco]

Almost nothing of that is combat related, Sensuki, which is what I asked for. You're also being pretty vague about what exactly the issues are.

 

------------------------

 

I think PER and RES can be made relevant through some simple stat adjustments, especially when it comes to the secondary stats like Will, Reflex, and Concentration. We really aren't given many situations in the beta where these are relevant.

 

I think Obsidian is wrong to even have racial and cultural bonuses. It just leads to players picking the race and culture based on what class they're playing. Race and culture should only be relevant to the character's interaction with the game world, through NPC attitudes, dialogue options, new quests, new quest resolutions, etc. So, shy of Obsidian actually jumping on my ship I'm fine with racial and cultural bonuses being as weak as they can possibly be.

 

Exploration I agree with.

 

When it comes to UI, I'm okay with the current layout. I would love the good old IE games layout, but it's not that important. In regards to inventory, I have no issues with it except that I think it should be even more restrictive. There's the obvious performance issue, but I think that is simply an optimization issue.

 

To me combat feels pretty IE already, with the buggy and not fully implemented feedback system being the only real detractor. There are obviously differences, with the more active combat as a result of abilities, but I think a lot of the combat issues are bug related, or an issue of player error.

 

Shopping is pretty much identical to the IE games, with the exception of the stash. Once again, a performance issue, but beyond that I don't see any actual issues.

 

In regards to class flexibility, it's tough to say anything unless you're more specific.

 

Advancement. It's a little unimaginative, but no more so than the IE games on the same levels.

 

------------------------

 

I think your argumentation is a little schizophrenic right now. You want combat to be more IE like(Which I think it already is), but you're criticizing parts of the design that are very IE like. I don't think you can have your cake and eat it, too.

[Freshock]

Seems like alot of threads tend to go out of topic these days

[PrimeJunta]

I'm pretty damn certain that Paradox QA hasn't even started, certainly not with 18 testers in parallel. Perhaps one at this point. It would be a colossal waste of resources at this point. 

 

In a nutshell, 18 testers costs a lot of money. You don't start that kind of testing until you believe it's feature-complete and you've fixed all the major and critical issues you know about. While you're still adding stuff and adjusting things you'll want to do it with a minimum number of testers.

 

Those 18 testers will be needed once they believe it's ready. Then they'll find all the broken dialogs, wonky spells, decimal-point errors in the combat arithmetic, that weird thing that happens when you equip a two-handed sword and a Robe of the Archmagi and cast Haste, the non-matching voiceovers, and so on and so forth.

 

At this point there's no point. They'd just be wasting their time reporting issues everybody knows about anyway.

 

For the beta builds, I'd expect they have internal QA that plays through the thing a few times to make sure it's not catastrophically broken, and that's it.

 

At this point, they will want to have playtesters though -- people whose job isn't so much to hunt for bugs, as to report things that are un-fun, out of whack, over-powered or not powerful enough. People like us in fact.

[Uomoz]

I was writing a pretty lengthy post in response to Sensuki, but Tartantyco beat me to it with pretty much the same content. I want to add that:

 

Exploration feel: this can hardly change, they simply went for a quality over quantity approach when making the game, maybe even for time constraints. The sparse BG1 exploration maps won't come back. Think it more like PST maybe?

 

Inventory: this really strikes me. To me PoE is a vast improvement over IE games in inventory management. (bags inside bags inside single character screen... UGH)

 

Combat feel: feels already better than BG1 combat overall and it has more interesting skills and spells even at low levels. It need tweaks, especially for readability/feedback, but it's already pretty fun. 

 

Classes: need more flexibility (via talents) like you said, but conceptually are already leagues ahead of IE games. Since PoE is more comparable to BG1 than BG2, level wise, remember BG1 ranger? Or paladin? Basically ****tier warriors with 1 spell. Rangers and paladins and all the classes feel so much different from each other in PoE.

[IndiraLightfoot]

PJ: Very good points, and fair enough! But I'd sure like to rename this beta "alpha".

[Sensuki]

I think PER and RES can be made relevant through some simple stat adjustments, especially when it comes to the secondary stats like Will, Reflex, and Concentration. We really aren't given many situations in the beta where these are relevant.

Not quite. Interrupt and Concentration have a dependency on another attribute, which makes it possible to make sh1tty builds, which is against the design goals of the system.

 

I think Obsidian is wrong to even have racial and cultural bonuses. It just leads to players picking the race and culture based on what class they're playing.

IE games (and D&D) did it, so they have to be included, otherwise backers would be disappointed. Most games have racial bonuses.

 

I have no issues with it except that I think it should be even more restrictive.

Are you that guy that wants less inventory slots? And what I mean by obtuse is that they take more mouse clicks to navigate than the IE inventory did. I find I'm using about double the mouse clicks to swap items and equip characters, which is awful.

 

To me combat feels pretty IE already, with the buggy and not fully implemented feedback system being the only real detractor. There are obviously differences, with the more active combat as a result of abilities, but I think a lot of the combat issues are bug related, or an issue of player error.

I enjoy the activeness of combat, but I think the pace is off. The speed of recovery is too slow and your characters take damage waaaaaaaaaay more quickly than the IE games did because of the new Attack Resolution system. I can handle the micromanagement because I play DotA 2 and RTS games and am used to controlling multiple characters at once (pause helps). The game generally requires you to pause or use slow mode just to play optimally at the moment and I don't think that's right. This can get fatiguing and make the game seem not fun.

 

I will be doing videos with pace comparisons in the near future, just to show how different it feels.

 

You accused me of playing badly in one of my videos, but my more recent ones are better. The videos I've seen of other people they lose more Health on average than I do in the beetles encounter (I use the starting gear and no 6th character, no previous quests done etc etc)

 

Shopping is pretty much identical to the IE games, with the exception of the stash. Once again, a performance issue, but beyond that I don't see any actual issues.

No it's not it requires more mouse clicks, and the shopkeeper's gold limitation is kind of a pain. It emphasizes trading items rather than just selling, so if there's nothing you want to buy then you'll have to go to various shops around the game world or abuse area transitions/time just to sell your gear - that's not fun.

 

In regards to class flexibility, it's tough to say anything unless you're more specific.

I think the Fighter, Rogue and some of the priest spell selections need work at least.

 

Advancement. It's a little unimaginative, but no more so than the IE games on the same levels.

At least on par with IWD2 would be nice.

 

I think your argumentation is a little schizophrenic right now. You want combat to be more IE like(Which I think it already is), but you're criticizing parts of the design that are very IE like.

I don't think I am. I think I understand what is IE-like very well.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Sensuki

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

 

Combat feel: feels already better than BG1 combat overall and it has more interesting skills and spells even at low levels. It need tweaks, especially for readability/feedback, but it's already pretty fun. 

 

 

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

 

*Wiping tears from me eyes*

Sorry, please, do carry on...

[Uomoz]

Indira, please. Share the light of your superior design mastery on us!

[Sarex]

I enjoy the activeness of combat, but I think the pace is off. The speed of recovery is too slow and your characters take damage waaaaaaaaaay more quickly than the IE games did because of the new Attack Resolution system. I can handle the micromanagement because I play DotA 2 and RTS games and am used to controlling multiple characters at once (pause helps). The game generally requires you to pause or use slow mode just to play optimally at the moment and I don't think that's right. This can get fatiguing and make the game seem not fun.

I will be doing videos with pace comparisons in the near future, just to show how different it feels.

 

You accused me of playing badly in one of my videos, but my more recent ones are better. The videos I've seen of other people they lose more Health on average than I do in the beetles encounter (I use the starting gear and no 6th character, no previous quests done etc etc)

 

I agree with this so much, trash fights shouldn't require this much micro managing. There should be a difference between big fights and trash fights.

[Seari]

I think Obsidian is wrong to even have racial and cultural bonuses. It just leads to players picking the race and culture based on what class they're playing. Race and culture should only be relevant to the character's interaction with the game world, through NPC attitudes, dialogue options, new quests, new quest resolutions, etc. So, shy of Obsidian actually jumping on my ship I'm fine with racial and cultural bonuses being as weak as they can possibly be.

No it doesn't, there's a thing called roleplaying. And even if they/we do, why the **** should that be a problem. **** off.

 

To me combat feels pretty IE already

No.

[Sensuki]

Matt check your steam buddy

[Regenshire]

I have had private discussions with some developers that worked on a project that Paradox was the publisher on.  On that project at least, Paradox began real bug testing at the release candidate stage. That project sadly was cancelled around that time apparently due to the poor state of the candidates (bugs, design, ect), as well I believe due to issues between management of the two companies.

 

The important part to this discussion is that most likely Paradox isn't very involved in testing at this stage.

[Sensuki]

Paradox is working on it atm, there's a woman called Anna Strom or something (found on linkedin) that has tested PE for audio bugs and localization.

[Seari]

I was writing a pretty lengthy post in response to Sensuki, but Tartantyco beat me to it with pretty much the same content. I want to add that:

 

Exploration feel: this can hardly change, they simply went for a quality over quantity approach when making the game, maybe even for time constraints. The sparse BG1 exploration maps won't come back. Think it more like PST maybe?

 

Inventory: this really strikes me. To me PoE is a vast improvement over IE games in inventory management. (bags inside bags inside single character screen... UGH)

 

Combat feel: feels already better than BG1 combat overall and it has more interesting skills and spells even at low levels. It need tweaks, especially for readability/feedback, but it's already pretty fun. 

 

Classes: need more flexibility (via talents) like you said, but conceptually are already leagues ahead of IE games. Since PoE is more comparable to BG1 than BG2, level wise, remember BG1 ranger? Or paladin? Basically ****tier warriors with 1 spell. Rangers and paladins and all the classes feel so much different from each other in PoE.

Holy ****, I wish I didn't read this post. Makes me think about committing murder, Bhaal pls

[Uomoz]

 

 

 

Combat feel: feels already better than BG1 combat overall and it has more interesting skills and spells even at low levels. It need tweaks, especially for readability/feedback, but it's already pretty fun. 

 

 

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

 

*Wiping tears from me eyes*

Sorry, please, do carry on...

 

 

 

 

Such fun! Such right clicks!

 

EDIT: and even Seari straight into the ignore zone!

Edited September 6, 2014 by Uomoz

[Sarex]

Such fun! Such right clicks!

 

EDIT: and even Seari straight into the ignore zone!

 

That is how trash mobs should play, I don't see a problem here.

[Tartantyco]

Not quite. Interrupt and Concentration have a dependency on another attribute

 

 

I don't see that in any of the documentation.

 

IE games (and D&D) did it, so they have to be included, otherwise backers would be disappointed. Most games have racial bonuses.

 

 

These arguments don't strike me as particularly convincing.

 

Are you that guy that wants less inventory slots?

 

 

I think inventory could be reduced to 6 slots per character, and quick slots reduced to 3. It makes them more tactically relevant, and creates actual decision-making in the inventory system.

 

And what I mean by obtuse is that they take more mouse clicks to navigate than the IE inventory did. I find I'm using about double the mouse clicks to swap items and equip characters, which is awful.

 

 

I can only assume that you're doing something horribly wrong.

 

I enjoy the activeness of combat, but I think the pace is off. The speed of [...] The game generally requires you to pause or use slow mode just to play optimally at the moment and I don't think that's right.

 

 

The pace is off due to balancing issues and bugs. As for pausing, you are literally describing the IE games combat in that sentence. It's RTwP, it is designed that way.

 

No it's not it requires more mouse clicks, and the shopkeeper's gold limitation is kind of a pain. It emphasizes trading items rather than just selling, so if there's nothing you want to buy then you'll have to go to various shops around the game world or abuse area transitions/time just to sell your gear - that's not fun.

 

 

The trading instead of selling is likely meant to slow down currency accumulation, so the game currency can actually have relevance in the game. You can't trade for companions, you can't trade for sleeping at inns, and there's likely going to be many more uses for currency in the game. Although the gold limitation might seem annoying in the limited context of the game, it is likely going to have a greater positive impact on the overall gameplay.

 

I think the Fighter, Rogue and some of the priest spell selections need work at least.

 

 

I guess pretty much all of it needs some "work", but I don't think there's any inherent systemic issues. I'm okay with the relatively simple and passive utility of the fighter, and would probably like to see an overall reduction in abilities and uses. When it comes to the spells I simply don't have the informational foundation to express any opinion.

 

I don't think I am. I think I understand what is IE-like very well. 

 

 

I think pretty much everyone on this forum would make that claim.

[Uomoz]

Why on earth should there be trash mobs, and what if the idea here of this game is not to rightclick your way to the boss?

[Sarex]

Why on earth should there be trash mobs, and what if the idea here of this game is not to rightclick your way to the boss?

 

Because you need something to fill empty areas, and there needs to be pacing in a game for it to be good, ie. for there to be hard encounters you need easy encounters.

[Tartantyco]

 

I think Obsidian is wrong to even have racial and cultural bonuses. It just leads to players picking the race and culture based on what class they're playing. Race and culture should only be relevant to the character's interaction with the game world, through NPC attitudes, dialogue options, new quests, new quest resolutions, etc. So, shy of Obsidian actually jumping on my ship I'm fine with racial and cultural bonuses being as weak as they can possibly be.

No it doesn't, there's a thing called roleplaying. And even if they/we do, why the **** should that be a problem. **** off.

 

"herp derp, roleplaying" isn't an argument in design contexts, Seari. They're making a game, not a sandbox.

[Seari]

Such fun! Such right clicks!

 

EDIT: and even Seari straight into the ignore zone!

 

Maybe you should go play Mass Effect instead, because judging from your posts, you don't even like IE games.

[Seari]

 

 

I think Obsidian is wrong to even have racial and cultural bonuses. It just leads to players picking the race and culture based on what class they're playing. Race and culture should only be relevant to the character's interaction with the game world, through NPC attitudes, dialogue options, new quests, new quest resolutions, etc. So, shy of Obsidian actually jumping on my ship I'm fine with racial and cultural bonuses being as weak as they can possibly be.

No it doesn't, there's a thing called roleplaying. And even if they/we do, why the **** should that be a problem. **** off.

 

"herp derp, roleplaying" isn't an argument in design contexts, Seari. They're making a game, not a sandbox.

 

You're wrong and it should be. This is first and foremost a roleplaying game. And this is exactly the problem with the current attribute system and why it sucks.

[Tartantyco]

Oh, I forgot that roleplaying games don't have rules.

[Sensuki]

I don't see that in any of the documentation.

Interrupt chance is modified whether the hit is a graze or a crit (halved or doubled), therefore it relies on Accuracy vs Defense. For every point of Accuracy you have, you are increasing your chance of scoring an Interrupt.

 

The inverse applies with Concentration. Each point in a defense opposes the opponent's accuracy. That extra point could be the difference between a hit and a crit, thus reducing the chance of interrupt by 50%

 

These arguments don't strike me as particularly convincing.

So? They are literally the reason why they're still in, if you had read any developer posts on the topic you'd know. The facts won't be changed.

 

and creates actual decision-making in the inventory system.

That would be fine in a game where you don't have too many items in the game, but this is a "pick up the kitchen sink" type of game, not as much as Ultima 7, but still. That would just be incredibly banal IMO. I think this inventory/stash system creates more inventory management than the IE games too. Also pay to use your stash (inn, or camping supplies worth 300gp) or go to your stronghold, but craft an item on the spot ... cool story bro

 

I can only assume that you're doing something horribly wrong.

Haha I was exaggerating. It's the same clicks, 5 clicks total to equip an item on another character. Click item, drag item and click item slot, click portrait to change characters, click item and drag into slot. Same as the IE games except horribly worse inventory.

 

The pace is off due to balancing issues and bugs. As for pausing, you are literally describing the IE games combat in that sentence. It's RTwP, it is designed that way.

BG2 is the only IE game where you pause heaps. In the others it's not required anywhere near as much.

 

Although the gold limitation might seem annoying in the limited context of the game, it is likely going to have a greater positive impact on the overall gameplay.

I seriously doubt that.

 

I guess pretty much all of it needs some "work", but I don't think there's any inherent systemic issues.

Not all design issues are systemic.

 

I think pretty much everyone on this forum would make that claim.

Dunno how much of the forums you read but of the frequent posters it's pretty easy to identify who understands the IE mechanics better than others.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Sensuki

[Valorian]

 

I don't see that in any of the documentation.

Interrupt chance is modified whether the hit is a graze or a crit (halved or doubled), therefore it relies on Accuracy vs Defense. For every point of Accuracy you have, you are increasing your chance of scoring an Interrupt.

 

 

 

 

Just like a point in dexterity increases your chance do deal damage (which is, in turn, modified by might).

As long as a point in perception has a greater impact on your ability to interrupt than a point in dexterity, it's fine.

Interrupt potential should take into account if it's a graze, hit or crit, as is the case now. The same is true for other on-hit effects.