Sensuki's Suggestions #011: Backer Beta Version Review v257 bb

[Sensuki]

Another problem is though that the Fighter fills the tanking/aggro role better than any other class. The only other class that can kind of do it is the Monk. So if you only have one Fighter and no Monk on Hard, that kind of limits your options doesn't it.

[Lasweetlife]

I think a high-Con Paladin with one or two ranks in the 'hold the line' talent and whichever zealous aura increases defense would also be a sweet tank with or in lieu of a fighter, with the added advantage that the tanking ability of any co-tanks or other melee characters would be increased by the presence of the paladin.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Lasweetlife

[Sensuki]

That's one of the good things about the Paladin, it's a flexible class.

 

The Fighter on it's own, is not.

[Mico Selva]

That is some nice and constructive criticism. I agree with pretty much everything (except I never get tired of listening to BG1 main menu music - NEVER).

Good job, Sensuki.

[Lasweetlife]

What additions or modifications would you like to see made to the classes you mentioned, particularly the fighter and the rogue, since with the priest and wizard the developers can simply increase the variety and diversity of spells, to make them more flexible and interesting?

[ctn2003]

I hop they listen.

[Shadenuat]

Grand-masteries meant fighters in IE were better at using any weapon than any other class in the game. PoE Fighters don't get that so they're not really fighters is a sense of masters of weapons. That means that any time you don't use them in defensive role you're not playing class optimally, while in IE fighter with two-handed weapon, sword&board, composite bow, fire crossbow, dual wielder were all supported by class. Hell, even single-weapon was (in BG2).

They also just don't do that much damage, really. Something with designers idea of making combat more controlled, with all the grazes and loads of stamina and HP.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Shadenuat

[Mayama]

I dont know what the problem with the walking speed is. For me one of the most anyoing things about the IE games was the super slow exploration and waiting for ages when I wanted to exit a map.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Mayama

[Ganrich]

I made a thread specifically to discuss Talent ideas so as to not derail the multiple discussions that could be had on this thread.

 

For anyone interested in speculating:  http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68002-talents-what-would-be-wanted-and-what-is-needed/

[Lasweetlife]

Grand-masteries meant fighters in IE were better at using any weapon than any other class in the game. PoE Fighters don't get that so they're not really fighters is a sense of masters of weapons. That means that any time you don't use them in defensive role you're not playing class optimally, while in IE fighter with two-handed weapon, sword&board, composite bow, fire crossbow, dual wielder were all supported by class. Hell, even single-weapon was (in BG2).

They also just don't do that much damage, really. Something with designers idea of making combat more controlled, with all the grazes and loads of stamina and HP.

Doesn't the fact that they have the highest accuracy bonus and are the only class that has access to weapon specialization go some way to addressing this?

[Shadenuat]

They only get ~5 points bonus compared to other melee classes I believe. Paladin actually has same accuracy I think, and plays a bit more flexible.

All classes can get weapon focus talent. Don't know about improved weapon focus if there is one.

[Lasweetlife]

They only get ~5 points bonus compared to other melee classes I believe. Paladin actually has same accuracy I think, and plays a bit more flexible.

All classes can get weapon focus talent. Don't know about improved weapon focus if there is one.

Yeah, fighters get weapon specialization, which increases damage, in addition to weapon focus, which increases accuracy.

[PrimeJunta]

Then let's make suggestions for talents and abilities that will solve this problem (same with the issues noted with the priest, rogue, and wizard classes). I think this is where the talent system can really shine in allowing us to differentiate and fine-tune our characters, if properly implemented (and if we are allowed to pick talents more often, say every two level-ups, and/or in lieu of a class abilities).

 

Yes, let's. I made a general suggestion to this effect in the Classes thread, but specifics would be nice. Bumping base ranged accuracy is a start, though.

 

Some ideas that have been floated, apologies for not remembering who exactly floated them, with all these ideas flying around --

• Knockdown Shot (tactically interesting but would make the simulationists howl probably)
• Reuse some of the Ranger ranged talents

[Ganrich]

@PrimeJunta

 

Simulation or no. If you shoot someone in the leg (with a bow or a gun) they will fall down.

[Mayama]

@PrimeJunta

 

Simulation or no. If you shoot someone in the leg (with a bow or a gun) they will fall down.

Call it arrow to the knee and wait how much rage you could generate from the elder scrolls hate crowd

Edited August 27, 2014 by Mayama

[Sensuki]

You could have a ranged Knockdown, just reduce the total duration or something if using a ranged weapon.

[Mayama]

About knockdown and other crowd control abilites, im curious about how they handle CC and boss fights. The usual approach in most RPG's is to make the boss immune to most forms of CC which makes those spells kinda pointless.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Mayama

[MasterPrudent]

About knockdown and other crowd control abilites, im curious about how they handle CC and boss fights. The usual approach in most RPG's is to make the boss immune to most forms of CC which makes those spells kinda pointless.

I don't know if they're any real guide but the ogre and spider queen seemed like mini-boss fights and iirc they didn't have any immunities to any cc abilities.

[Mayama]

 

About knockdown and other crowd control abilites, im curious about how they handle CC and boss fights. The usual approach in most RPG's is to make the boss immune to most forms of CC which makes those spells kinda pointless.

I don't know if they're any real guide but the ogre and spider queen seemed like mini-boss fights and iirc they didn't have any immunities to any cc abilities.

 

Could it be that the spider queen is kinda bugged for me? She appears to be weaker than the average spider.

[PrimeJunta]

I wish they'll lose the whole 'boss fight' concept. Have tough plot- and environment-appropriate enemies for sure, but not that "this is not even my final form" nonsense, hitpoint mountains you have to whittle down, collapse-the-temple-to-win, or complete immunities to bloody near everything. I hope Obsidian has grown beyond that.

 

That said, I don't mind immunities or near-immunities to some or even many abilities. It would be a bit underwhelming maybe if you could just knockdown Darth Vader and then proceed to kick him to death.

[Sensuki]

I dont know what the problem with the walking speed is. For me one of the most anyoing things about the IE games was the super slow exploration and waiting for ages when I wanted to exit a map.

One of the RPGCodex users Roguey thinks that people like things like the slow movement speed in the IE games because it artificially increases the length of the game. However Roguey himself is not a patient person overall and has absolutely no patience for learning curves or anything like that in games in general.

 

In my latest BG2 & ToB Playthrough, I didn't use Boots of Speed during exploration, and I found that to make moving through the levels much more enjoyable, rather than just rushing to my next objective as fast as possible to advance the game.

 

I wish they'll lose the whole 'boss fight' concept. Have tough plot- and environment-appropriate enemies for sure, but not that "this is not even my final form" nonsense, hitpoint mountains you have to whittle down, collapse-the-temple-to-win, or complete immunities to bloody near everything. I hope Obsidian has grown beyond that.

 

That said, I don't mind immunities or near-immunities to some or even many abilities. It would be a bit underwhelming maybe if you could just knockdown Darth Vader and then proceed to kick him to death.

There weren't many of these in the IE games, and in Baldur's Gate 1 there was really only a few fights against specific Wizards that were party vs 1 enemy. The rest were groups.

 

BG2 had a few more of these (Liches, Wizards, Dragons).

Edited August 27, 2014 by Sensuki

[Ganrich]

I wish they'll lose the whole 'boss fight' concept. Have tough plot- and environment-appropriate enemies for sure, but not that "this is not even my final form" nonsense, hitpoint mountains you have to whittle down, collapse-the-temple-to-win, or complete immunities to bloody near everything. I hope Obsidian has grown beyond that.

 

That said, I don't mind immunities or near-immunities to some or even many abilities. It would be a bit underwhelming maybe if you could just knockdown Darth Vader and then proceed to kick him to death.

I always found the situations in the IE games where you face multiple solid adversaries instead of 1 giant baddie vs your team of 6 were more interesting. The group at the top of the Iron Throne headquarters in BG1 come to mind. They have a couple melee and a few casters. I think there are 5 or so in total.

 

I don't care for 1 HP endowed god and a 2 minions made of paper than only give you trouble if you leave them be. I want a handful (not opposed to more) of really capable enemies.

[PrimeJunta]

There weren't many of these in the IE games, and in Baldur's Gate 1 there was really only a few fights against specific Wizards that were party vs 1 enemy. The rest were groups.

BG2 had a few more of these (Liches, Wizards, Dragons).

 

One more reason to wish boss fights begone, yes.

[limaxophobiacq]

On certain classes having not so much to do in combat beside an ability or mode to use/activate; wasn't it always intentional to have some classes like fighter be 'low maintenance' so you dont have to micro-manage all six party members at all times? 

[Stun]

I ditto the boss-fights-be-gone suggestion. In just about any RPG I have ever played, an enemy party encounter has always been more fun than a boss battle. You've got a group of enemies in front of you that mirrors your own, has your skills, and fights you on even terms. What's not to like about such a design?

Edited August 27, 2014 by Stun