Backer beta: Developer Impressions

[Ignatius]

 

 

Regarding quest only xp, one thing that I'm not totally comfortable with is the fact that one of the key outcomes of xp/leveling up, is you become a more potent combatant. How does one become a more potent combatant if they never engage in combat?

 

How does one become better at lockpicking by stabbing beetles?

 

You mean how does one become better at mechanics by killing beetles? I can think of a few ways.

 

 

The beetles drop How To books.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Except, barring the fed ex quests, in PoE, you don't get xp for lockpicking or crafting either. Sure, xp is definitely a classic abstract progress bar of many an RPG. But then again, why the heavy combat focus on levelling up, in the game, probably talents as well?

 

In essence, it's utterly absurd to have your party slowly becoming Bruce Lee, Darth Vader and Aang, all from passing under the radar, and from being well-behaved scout hubs and turn in all the lost-n-founds.

Edited August 26, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Stun]

 

What do you mean it doesn't have relevance to the question? It can be applied to everything you mentioned above. 1) it's combat Oriented. 2) there are motivations/incentives to engage in combat that do not involve Questing or XP; and 3) people will engage in all of its gameplay because of 1 and 2 alone.

 

I'm sorry, but the answer to your question is in the post you quoted. There are no alternate paths other than combat. Please read my posts if you are to reply to them.

 

Aah, I see. So your argument is that Kill XP is not needed if there are multiple paths other than combat. Ok. And if there isn't? Edited August 26, 2014 by Stun

[Kharador]

Offtopic everywhere

[Tartantyco]

 

 

What do you mean it doesn't have relevance to the question? It can be applied to everything you mentioned above. 1) it's combat Oriented. 2) there are motivations/incentives to engage in combat that do not involve Questing or XP; and 3) people will engage in all of its gameplay because of 1 and 2 alone.

 

I'm sorry, but the answer to your question is in the post you quoted. There are no alternate paths other than combat. Please read my posts if you are to reply to them.

 

Aah, I see. So your argument is that XP is not needed if there are multiple paths other than combat. Ok. And if there isn't?

 

No, my argument is that the Mortal Kombat example is irrelevant because it doesn't have alternate paths. The point of the Quake II example is to see if not having rewards for killing results in different behavior. You can't judge whether behavior changes if there is nothing to change to.

[IndiraLightfoot]

*SUDDEN FLASH*

All of the sudden, I'm overwhelmed with gratitude for having backed T:ToN big time. There we'll get roleplaying of ZaZu's high standards, turn-based combat in accordance with Marceror's suggestions, and no trash mobs (just a few, focussed and varied encounters), and lots of area design by George Ziets, with Kevin Saunders as the lead (MotB). At least, I'm thankful that this dream isn't tarnished, since the one here is. I still have super-high hopes for it, but some of the missing pieces for this "spiritual IE successor" are like missing limbs right now - phantom limbs I still prefer using psycho-somatically.

Edited August 26, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Stun]

No, my argument is that the Mortal Kombat example is irrelevant because it doesn't have alternate paths. The point of the Quake II example is to see if not having rewards for killing results in different behavior. You can't judge whether behavior changes if there is nothing to change to.

Good God make this stop already. Quake II is a 1st person shooter. The point is to kill things. The missions are about killing things. The game play is about killing things. Stop pretending that just because you can "run past stuff" that suddenly this means the game is centered around choice, and therefore serves as an example to how to do ANTHING in Pillars of Eternity.

 

Just don't.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Stun

[Helm]

 

Regarding quest only xp, one thing that I'm not totally comfortable with is the fact that one of the key outcomes of xp/leveling up, is you become a more potent combatant. How does one become a more potent combatant if they never engage in combat?

 

How does one become better at lockpicking by stabbing beetles? It doesn't make sense anyway, so the argument isn't really valid.

 

I agree. It doesn't any sense at all that you can improve your lockpick skill by stabbing beetles. Obsidian should reward the player with lockpick XP for picking locks so that he can improve his lockpicking skill. Thank you for pointing out how ridiculous quest only XP is, Tartanyco. Your support of our cause is greatly appreciated.

 

So, where were we? Ahh, yes, how does one become a more potent combatant if they never engage in combat?

[Tartantyco]

 

No, my argument is that the Mortal Kombat example is irrelevant because it doesn't have alternate paths. The point of the Quake II example is to see if not having rewards for killing results in different behavior. You can't judge whether behavior changes if there is nothing to change to.

Good God make this stop already. Quake II is a 1st person shooter. The point is to kill things. The missions are about killing things. The game play is about killing things. Stop pretending that just because you can "run past stuff" that suddenly this means the game is centered around choice, and therefore serves as an example to how to do ANTHING in Pillars of Eternity.

 

Just don't.

 

 

I'm not forcing you to engage in this discussion. If it is beyond you, then simply do not involve yourself.

 

 

 

Regarding quest only xp, one thing that I'm not totally comfortable with is the fact that one of the key outcomes of xp/leveling up, is you become a more potent combatant. How does one become a more potent combatant if they never engage in combat?

 

How does one become better at lockpicking by stabbing beetles? It doesn't make sense anyway, so the argument isn't really valid.

 

I agree. It doesn't any sense at all that you can improve your lockpick skill by stabbing beetles. Obsidian should reward the player with lockpick XP for picking locks so that he can improve his lockpicking skill. Thank you for pointing out how ridiculous quest only XP is, Tartanyco. Your support of our cause is greatly appreciated.

 

So, where were we? Ahh, yes, how does one become a more potent combatant if they never engage in combat?

 

 

In that case, the XP from lockpicking would have to go directly towards improving your lockpicking. However, XP is a pool. Invalid argument.

[Cabamacadaf]

Leveling up based on xp you get for random things and then getting to put points into whatever makes no sense either. If they wanted it realistic they should've done it like the Elder Scrolls where you level up your skills by actually using them.

[Stun]

I'm not forcing you to engage in this discussion.

True. You're trying to bait me into responding to you.

 

If it is beyond beneath you, then simply do not involve yourself.

Fixed. That's good advice for just about everyone here.

[Mayama]

Leveling up based on xp you get for random things and then getting to put points into whatever makes no sense either. If they wanted it realistic they should've done it like the Elder Scrolls where you level up your skills by actually using them.

Ahhh good old daggerfall in which you became the most powerfull magican by spamming spells at a wall that contained parts of each magic class.

[Volourn]

"the current PoE system is borked. there is literal hundreds o' games better than PoE in its current state. nevertheless, your observation is pointless and misguided. in any event, we should all thank God that vol approval does not = better."

 

So, you believe PE's xp system is better than SRR's xp system? L0L

[Helm]

 

 

 

Regarding quest only xp, one thing that I'm not totally comfortable with is the fact that one of the key outcomes of xp/leveling up, is you become a more potent combatant. How does one become a more potent combatant if they never engage in combat?

 

How does one become better at lockpicking by stabbing beetles? It doesn't make sense anyway, so the argument isn't really valid.

 

I agree. It doesn't any sense at all that you can improve your lockpick skill by stabbing beetles. Obsidian should reward the player with lockpick XP for picking locks so that he can improve his lockpicking skill. Thank you for pointing out how ridiculous quest only XP is, Tartanyco. Your support of our cause is greatly appreciated.

 

So, where were we? Ahh, yes, how does one become a more potent combatant if they never engage in combat?

 

 

In that case, the XP from lockpicking would have to go directly towards improving your lockpicking. However, XP is a pool. Invalid argument.

 

 

You can have separate XP pools for lockpicking and combat. Skyrim does something similiar actually.

 

So, who says that you can't have an XP pool solely for lockpicking skills and a separate XP pool for combat skills?

 

 

 

Back to our very valid argument: How does one become a more potent combatant if they never engage in combat?

[Tartantyco]

We are perfectly aware of the TES leveling system, Helm. It has its own issues, and there is no way in which it would be implemented in PoE, so there is no point in discussing it. Your arguments actually have to depend on the current XP system.

[Stun]

We are perfectly aware of the TES leveling system, Helm.

I love it when individuals constantly refer to themselves in first person plural. Edited August 26, 2014 by Stun

[Mayama]

 

Hey look helm and stun raging in the same thread.

 

 

[Tartantyco]

 

We are perfectly aware of the TES leveling system, Helm.

I love it when individuals constantly talk in first person plural.

 

 

I use "we" because most people on this forum are perfectly aware of a game series that spans two decades.

Edited August 26, 2014 by TrueNeutral

[Helm]

We are perfectly aware of the TES leveling system, Helm. It has its own issues, and there is no way in which it would be implemented in PoE, so there is no point in discussing it. Your arguments actually have to depend on the current XP system.

You must have missed it when I wrote that the game can have an XP pool for lockpicking skills. You pick a lock, you get lockpick XP.

 

Good. Now we need an XP pool for combat skills too. You kill a beetle, you get combat XP, because you become a more potent combatant. 

Edited August 26, 2014 by Helm

[Tartantyco]

An XP pool means XP from various sources is stored in it, an XP "pool" for lockpicking that you add to by lockpicking is not a pool.

 

The PoE system does not work on direct individual XP rewards, and it will not be altered to do so. What you're talking about is irrelevant.

[Helm]

An XP pool means XP from various sources is stored in it, an XP "pool" for lockpicking that you add to by lockpicking is not a pool.

 

The PoE system does not work on direct individual XP rewards, and it will not be altered to do so. What you're talking about is irrelevant.

So you're saying that improving your lockpick skill by talking to an ogre is ok, but improving your lockpick skill by stabbing a beetle isn't?

 

Why? Is the former less abstract than the latter or something?

[Monte Carlo]

An XP pool means XP from various sources is stored in it, an XP "pool" for lockpicking that you add to by lockpicking is not a pool.

 

The PoE system does not work on direct individual XP rewards, and it will not be altered to do so. What you're talking about is irrelevant.

 

Where did you learn your interpersonal skills? Colditz?

[Tartantyco]

 

An XP pool means XP from various sources is stored in it, an XP "pool" for lockpicking that you add to by lockpicking is not a pool.

 

The PoE system does not work on direct individual XP rewards, and it will not be altered to do so. What you're talking about is irrelevant.

So you're saying that improving your lockpick skill by talking to an ogre is ok, but improving your lockpick skill by stabbing a beetle isn't?

 

Why? Is the former less abstract than the latter or something?

 

I'm saying that you're trying to argue for logic where there is none to be found. Neither is more "ok" than the other, but XP must be rewarded in some manner. Kill XP has been decided against because it promotes one playstyle over another and incentivizes certain behavior, not because this XP solution is more or less logical than that XP solution.

[Stun]

I'd also like to know who taught him ESP.

 

Because this:

The PoE system does not work on direct individual XP rewards, and it will not be altered to do so

...is something none of us knows yet. Not even the developers know. Josh Sawyer came to these boards just yesterday to remind us in several various ways, that PoE is still a work in progress and stuff like setting Numerical values to things (like XP rewards for successful use of the Athletics skill) is so very much something that is not yet set in stone. Edited August 26, 2014 by Stun

[Helm]

 

 

An XP pool means XP from various sources is stored in it, an XP "pool" for lockpicking that you add to by lockpicking is not a pool.

 

The PoE system does not work on direct individual XP rewards, and it will not be altered to do so. What you're talking about is irrelevant.

So you're saying that improving your lockpick skill by talking to an ogre is ok, but improving your lockpick skill by stabbing a beetle isn't?

 

Why? Is the former less abstract than the latter or something?

 

I'm saying that you're trying to argue for logic where there is none to be found. Neither is more "ok" than the other, but XP must be rewarded in some manner. Kill XP has been decided against because it promotes one playstyle over another and incentivizes certain behavior, not because this XP solution is more or less logical than that XP solution.

 

Ahhh, so you admit that it ok to improve lockpick skill with combat XP or quest XP because both concepts are equally abstract? Good.

 

Anyway, not rewarding combat with XP also promotes one playstyle over another, which is to avoid combat. I didn't back a stealth simulator, I backed a spiritual successor the IE games. So, how does one become a more potent combatant if they never engage in combat? How do I become a masterful warrior by skipping all of the combat in the game and always choosing the peaceful solution to quests?