Drama in the indy gaming biz ?

[Longknife]

Do I get points for never trusting them to begin with ?

 

Yes, but I would hope those points would be much like the free space on a bingo card in that everyone has them.

But I know that's not the case... :C

[Fighter]

There are legitimetly good things that can come out of this mess. This from The Escapist for example:

 

Our editor-in-chief, Greg Tito, having reviewed the facts at hand, concluded we ourselves have been imperfect in maintaining journalistic standards. A particularly problematic article, the one which generated his review, was about the alleged harassment of an indie developer by a forum community which denied the allegations but was itself victimized as a result of them. The article failed to cite the harassment as alleged, failed to give the forum community an opportunity present its point of view, and did not verify the claims or secure other sources. Mr. Tito has personally updated the article and spoken to all our editors about the importance of adhering to standards that will prevent such bad incidents from happening again. We, as a team, apologize for this error, both to our readers and to the forum community that suffered as a result. I, personally, apologize for this error, as well.

 

Maybe next time they won't just take one of these perpetually "victimized" snowflakes at their word by default.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Fighter

[BruceVC]

To be honest, I'm not very convinced by the alleged "corruption everywhere!!!11" evidence.

So, a game reviewer and the dev whose game he reviewed can be seen in the same photo, which was taken at some gaming industry event? Another reviewer may have had a romantic relationship with a dev many months after he reviewed her game? So what, I don't see why I should be outraged based on any of that kind of stuff.

 

The only part of the 'corruption evidence' that I found somewhat interesting, was the stuff relating to Fez and the IGF. But even here, I wouldn't draw the conclusion "OMG the IGF is a racketeering conspiracy!!!!11" but rather, "the IGF contest seems to have ****ty rules that benefit those who are part of the cool-guy 'clique', and is missing safeguards to ensure fairness and transparency".

 

Dunno maybe I'm wrong; If a respectable outside journalist would properly investigate that stuff and interpret & present the findings in a professional way (rather than patching together hyperbolic youtube videos based on fragments of evidence), that would probably make for an interesting read.

 

---

 

What I did take away from the whole drama though, was the sheer viciousness of the social justice warriors on twitter and on gaming sites.

 

Until now, I experienced SJW's in gaming mostly as:

• Sometimes annoying but well-intentioned gaming community members with a little bit of a white-knighting complex, and the unshakable belief that they're helping to create a better world by "expanding other gamers' consciousness" on social and gender issues.

  Like BruceVC on this forum - he's pretty obstinate in his sticking to the social justice worldview even when it collides with reality, but he's also polite and seems to be genuinely interested in peaceful discussion.

• Game magazine journalists who keep coming up with "important gaming culture issues" to write about (usually ending with some kind of emotional appeal or collective guilt-trip), instead of writing more about games. Probably to make their own jobs feel more meaningful and important.

Those I can live with; might even miss them a little if they weren't there...

 

But the anti #GamerGate and anti #NotYourShield attack squads were something else. It's not even like they went after that tiny minority of #GamerGate tweets that said stupid or potentially misogynistic things, or after the people who had something to do with threatening and hacking Anita Sarkeesian and whatever that other women was called.

They went after random casual twitter users who used those hashtags in any non-negative way. Gamers who just wanted to voice support for transparency in gaming journalism. People who just asked both sides to calm down. People who didn't even understand what's going on and were just asking questions.

Those users were crudely insulted out of the blue ("misogynist neckbeard scum" was one of the more restrained phrases), told to "shut up" and "**** off", told that they must hate women (even though some of them were women), told they were worse than ISIS terrorists, subjected to ridicule and attempts at public humiliation, in some cases threatened with violence, and in a few cases doxxed (which is a really ****ty thing to do). Not to mention the intentionally mean-spirited #DescribeAGamerInFourWords meme started by the same SJWs.

 

The irony was that many of those SJWs justified their actions by claiming they were merely "fighting people who aligned themselves with a movement that is guilty of harassment". Yeah, way to gain the moral high ground...

 

Even more mind boggling, was that some gaming journalists and devs (you know: professionals, the kind of people who ought to know better) joined in on the undifferentiated and potty-mouthed gamer-bashing "fun".

 

So yeah, I think I'll stay away from twitter and online gaming magazines for the foreseeable future, for my own sanity...

 

I'll try not to become guilty of their "sweeping generalization and intolerance is OK if you believe you're on the 'good guys' side" mentality myself, and won't let the experience cloud my judgment of the peaceful and usually positive-minded SJWs on forums like these. May they be a positive influence on their radicalized brethren, at least as much as they hope to influence the rest of us...

 

 

This is a really insightful post but its far to reasonable and logical for this thread

 

If you are shocked by the viciousness of SJW you should read some of the comments directed towards feminists and there supporters. Comments like " a women like you needs a good raping to sort you out "

 

But the main thing for me that I have found completely exasperating about this debate has been the constant and deliberate attempts by people to intentionally misunderstand the intentions of gaming journalists and many  people who support Zoe Quinn. And it really comes down to the word " gamer". As I've tried to explain the word doesn't apply to all gamers, but it does apply to those gamers who refuse to accept change in the industry. And this applies to those white, ,male gamers who don't believe in inclusivity. But once again this doesn't mean all white, male gamers.

 

Anyway its always best to stay on the side of virtue and righteousness ....fight the good SJ fight

[Volourn]

"And it really comes down to the word " gamer". As I've tried to explain the word doesn't apply to all gamers, but it does apply to those gamers who refuse to accept change in the industry. And this applies to those white, ,male gamers who don't believe in inclusivity. But once again this doesn't mean all white, male gamers."

 

Wait... don't you see the problem with the word gamer not meaning gamers?

 

Give me a break with your racism and sexism.  It's evil, and typical of feminism. Why don't you believe in e quality? Why do you hate white males?

 

People like you pretend to be nice but are actually quite hateful and evil. At least someone like me is open in my hatred of everyone - men, women, children, black, white, whatever.

 

Why are you so fake?

 

I bet you never whine when people tell a white male they hope they go to prison so they can be raped there? LMAO Double hypocritical standard.

[BruceVC]

"And it really comes down to the word " gamer". As I've tried to explain the word doesn't apply to all gamers, but it does apply to those gamers who refuse to accept change in the industry. And this applies to those white, ,male gamers who don't believe in inclusivity. But once again this doesn't mean all white, male gamers."

 

Wait... don't you see the problem with the word gamer not meaning gamers?

 

Give me a break with your racism and sexism.  It's evil, and typical of feminism. Why don't you believe in e quality? Why do you hate white males?

 

People like you pretend to be nice but are actually quite hateful and evil. At least someone like me is open in my hatred of everyone - men, women, children, black, white, whatever.

 

Why are you so fake?

 

I bet you never whine when people tell a white male they hope they go to prison so they can be raped there? LMAO Double hypocritical standard.

 

As I've said numerous times the word  " gamer" doesn't mean all gamers, in this discussion it has never meant that. Its just become a convenient way for people like you to vent and show outrage at "the terrible way you have been treated by gaming journalists and the industry "

 

The irony being you have never respected and liked gaming journalists anyway, so its just double standards and false indignation

[Oerwinde]

 

 

"And it really comes down to the word " gamer". As I've tried to explain the word doesn't apply to all gamers, but it does apply to those gamers who refuse to accept change in the industry. And this applies to those white, ,male gamers who don't believe in inclusivity. But once again this doesn't mean all white, male gamers."

 

Wait... don't you see the problem with the word gamer not meaning gamers?

 

Give me a break with your racism and sexism. It's evil, and typical of feminism. Why don't you believe in e quality? Why do you hate white males?

 

People like you pretend to be nice but are actually quite hateful and evil. At least someone like me is open in my hatred of everyone - men, women, children, black, white, whatever.

 

Why are you so fake?

 

I bet you never whine when people tell a white male they hope they go to prison so they can be raped there? LMAO Double hypocritical standard.

As I've said numerous times the word " gamer" doesn't mean all gamers, in this discussion it has never meant that. Its just become a convenient way for people like you to vent and show outrage at "the terrible way you have been treated by gaming journalists and the industry "

 

The irony being you have never respected and liked gaming journalists anyway, so its just double standards and false indignation

The problem here is how upset you get when it seems like the majority of people have a negative view of the word feminist, but the negative interpretation for that comes from decades of misuse and negative association. Gamer has never meant anything but "people who play games" until the game bloggers decided to hijack the meaning for this discussion. This is why #GamerGate got so many supporters.

 

Imagine how mad you would be if there wasn't any negative association with feminist and everyone widely accepted the term to mean someone who believed in equality, and suddenly all the feminist blogs suddenly started using it to exclusively describe the crazy "all sex is rape, men are the cause of evils, long live the matriarchy" feminists and decry the end of feminism.

[Volourn]

"The irony being you have never respected and liked gaming journalists anyway, so its just double standards and false indignation"
 

You wanna know what's REALLY hilarious? That you think that's irony when you have never seen me go on some rant about 'never liking journalists' anyways outside of my simply hating people for giggles. I don't care  that junk. I'm just bigoted against bigots which is why I'm bigoted against feminists and masculinists.

 

I believe in equality. I wish more people did. You've already admitted that you don't believe in equality so you are a lost cause.

[Fighter]

I would not have much problem if someone else was using "gamer" in a specific context and the text was clear on who it was referring too. But these are the same people who throw a massive tantrum when anyone uses the words "girl gamer" to refer to a specific type of female gamer and not just all women who game. They are hypocrites and they need to practice what they preach.

[BruceVC]

 

 

"And it really comes down to the word " gamer". As I've tried to explain the word doesn't apply to all gamers, but it does apply to those gamers who refuse to accept change in the industry. And this applies to those white, ,male gamers who don't believe in inclusivity. But once again this doesn't mean all white, male gamers."

 

Wait... don't you see the problem with the word gamer not meaning gamers?

 

Give me a break with your racism and sexism. It's evil, and typical of feminism. Why don't you believe in e quality? Why do you hate white males?

 

People like you pretend to be nice but are actually quite hateful and evil. At least someone like me is open in my hatred of everyone - men, women, children, black, white, whatever.

 

Why are you so fake?

 

I bet you never whine when people tell a white male they hope they go to prison so they can be raped there? LMAO Double hypocritical standard.

As I've said numerous times the word " gamer" doesn't mean all gamers, in this discussion it has never meant that. Its just become a convenient way for people like you to vent and show outrage at "the terrible way you have been treated by gaming journalists and the industry "

 

The irony being you have never respected and liked gaming journalists anyway, so its just double standards and false indignation

The problem here is how upset you get when it seems like the majority of people have a negative view of the word feminist, but the negative interpretation for that comes from decades of misuse and negative association. Gamer has never meant anything but "people who play games" until the game bloggers decided to hijack the meaning for this discussion. This is why #GamerGate got so many supporters.

 

Imagine how mad you would be if there wasn't any negative association with feminist and everyone widely accepted the term to mean someone who believed in equality, and suddenly all the feminist blogs suddenly started using it to exclusively describe the crazy "all sex is rape, men are the cause of evils, long live the matriarchy" feminists and decry the end of feminism.

 

 

You've raised a good point and it is related to the definition of certain words and what we decide they mean. But we do need consistency, do we accept that certain words don't mean what the official dictionary says they mean based on the context and the discussion at the time? Or do we say that a words definition doesn't ever change irrespective of the context?

[kirottu]

But the main thing for me that I have found completely exasperating about this debate has been the constant and deliberate attempts by people to intentionally misunderstand the intentions of gaming journalists and many  people who support Zoe Quinn. 

 

If those people actually cared about women in gaming, as players or developers, they would have at some point written an article about The Fine Young Capitalists Indiegogo campaign, but they haven't. It goes against their agenda, their last straw to be considered as a relevant piece of media instead of glorified advertisers: "Gamers hate women and we are fighting the good fight."

 

Labeling those who are against them as "misogynist" isn't first defense for feminism. It is first defense against feminism. It reinforces the idea that women are weaker than men, women can't take it, aren't equal, therefore they must be protected by someone who can take it, who is stronger, a man.

 

All those "journalists" who wrote those "gamers are dead" articles are full of ****. It isn't a misunderstanding. It is a fact. 

[Oerwinde]

 

The problem here is how upset you get when it seems like the majority of people have a negative view of the word feminist, but the negative interpretation for that comes from decades of misuse and negative association. Gamer has never meant anything but "people who play games" until the game bloggers decided to hijack the meaning for this discussion. This is why #GamerGate got so many supporters.

 

Imagine how mad you would be if there wasn't any negative association with feminist and everyone widely accepted the term to mean someone who believed in equality, and suddenly all the feminist blogs suddenly started using it to exclusively describe the crazy "all sex is rape, men are the cause of evils, long live the matriarchy" feminists and decry the end of feminism.

 

 

You've raised a good point and it is related to the definition of certain words and what we decide they mean. But we do need consistency, do we accept that certain words don't mean what the official dictionary says they mean based on the context and the discussion at the time? Or do we say that a words definition doesn't ever change irrespective of the context?

 

 

The meaning of words changes over time. Sometimes the dictionary doesn't keep up. The problem in this situation is that you have 8 or 9 journalists using "gamer" to mean the unwashed basement dwelling mysoginist arseholes, and everyone else reading it and thinking "why are they being so hostile to me and my fellow gamers?" not realizing they have suddenly narrowed the definition. It wasn't a natural evolution of the word, it was a bunch of people writing nonsense.

[Shallow]

Bruce, what's your opinion on this article: http://j-k-degoya.tumblr.com/post/96600027121/musings-on-notyourshield-a-last-word-on-zoe-why ?

[BruceVC]

 

 

The problem here is how upset you get when it seems like the majority of people have a negative view of the word feminist, but the negative interpretation for that comes from decades of misuse and negative association. Gamer has never meant anything but "people who play games" until the game bloggers decided to hijack the meaning for this discussion. This is why #GamerGate got so many supporters.

 

Imagine how mad you would be if there wasn't any negative association with feminist and everyone widely accepted the term to mean someone who believed in equality, and suddenly all the feminist blogs suddenly started using it to exclusively describe the crazy "all sex is rape, men are the cause of evils, long live the matriarchy" feminists and decry the end of feminism.

 

 

You've raised a good point and it is related to the definition of certain words and what we decide they mean. But we do need consistency, do we accept that certain words don't mean what the official dictionary says they mean based on the context and the discussion at the time? Or do we say that a words definition doesn't ever change irrespective of the context?

 

 

The meaning of words changes over time. Sometimes the dictionary doesn't keep up. The problem in this situation is that you have 8 or 9 journalists using "gamer" to mean the unwashed basement dwelling mysoginist arseholes, and everyone else reading it and thinking "why are they being so hostile to me and my fellow gamers?" not realizing they have suddenly narrowed the definition. It wasn't a natural evolution of the word, it was a bunch of people writing nonsense.

 

 

Sure I understand your concern. I feel  the same frustration. There are several people on these forums who say feminism means  a hatred of men and that feminism means that women must be more fairly represented at the expense of men. But what can we do about people who refuse to understand or accept  what words really mean?

[BruceVC]

Bruce, what's your opinion on this article: http://j-k-degoya.tumblr.com/post/96600027121/musings-on-notyourshield-a-last-word-on-zoe-why ?

 

Its not a  bad read, he positions the whole " yes women are more likely  the victims of sexual violence than men but men are also treated more unfairly then women in institutions like family court "  in way that is objective

 

So I think its a reasonable article because he does acknowledge the gender inequality that exists in society that effect both men and women

[NWN_babaYaga]

even in the mainstream press of germany this stuff gets articles (how evil gamers are ) and feminists and whiteknights who have nothing to do with GAMES at all jump on the "gamers". Label them as racist and mysoginists etc. So we definetely have a wave of aliens in this whole mess who have only one argument and thats like, gamers are the definition of hatred. I would say the undertone of these people is like neo-nazis = gamers. So i dont share any optimistic viewpoint for the future because the press here already made their statement. When our press is saying it is SO then they dont change their biased articles. Thanks a lot. Good work!

 

And our so called feminists have a good network. When they have an enemy they come together and write everywhere how evil and bad the guy is. They try everything to destroy your reputation. Whatever you say to counter their argument they say "you hate us" or you hate this or that. They always say that you HATE something just because you dont share their point of view. In this whole thing you can clearly see that it´s about labeling male gamers as hatefull objects.

Edited September 9, 2014 by NWN_babaYaga

[Lexx]

Haven't read a single german article about this stuff. Where did you find it?

 

But other than that, the german "gaming press" usually just does copy & paste from the english websites anyway.

[NWN_babaYaga]

here

http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/netzpolitik/anita-sarkeesian-feministische-videospielkritik-und-morddrohungen-a-988906.html

 

Spiegel online natürlich von einer Frau geschrieben. Was auch sonnst. You can find much more if you use google! If that is not mainstream press outside of gaming what else...

 

To let you know. Spiegel is mostly the average online site for the so called average intellectual... FAZ also wrote about sexism and racism in gaming and surprisingly this mess summons woman into it (like i said) who have no clue but needs to raise their voice against ordinary people with a hobby. Spiegel, FAZ, TAZ etc. That is our mainstream press!

Edited September 9, 2014 by NWN_babaYaga

[Fighter]

Those "gamer identity" articles are way too similar in terminology and attitude to be just accidentally very similar. Seems there was at the very least a loose collaboration to drive an agenda.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Fighter

[Blarghagh]

As I've said numerous times the word  " gamer" doesn't mean all gamers, in this discussion it has never meant that.

 

I've been assured by people supporting the journalists that this is not the case, which is the problem. These journalists carry weight and have reach - the moment those articles went up, the connection has been made and some of their readers went on the attack. No half-hearted retraction such as the one from Rock Paper Shotgun is going to matter.

 

It is a tactic many people have used against SJWs and feminists, which is why I'm surprised you would make that argument. You discredit the group without redefining the word and make the connection, and then when you get called on it you go "oh no, when I say [group], I mean something else". It's an easy way to marginalise and demonise people without having to take responsibility for what your words do. At this point, I have seen more anti-#GamerGate people be abusive than I have ever seen gamers be abusive in my entire life and I hold the careless call to arms of these journalists responsible.

 

It doesn't help that the gamers who are against harassment or are minorities themselves are being harassed and marginalised now and none of these journalists, even the ones going "oh we don't mean ALL gamers" have owned up to the fact that their generalising smear campaign has caused harassment, doxxing, sexism and racism (from the supposed people who claim to be supporting inclusivity) when the gamers have been quick to own up to the fact that yes, some gamers are awful people and we condemn their actions.

 

If you look into the hashtags on Twitter, for example, you will find thousands of gamers messaging for tolerance and peace or showing they are minority gamers who have not been discriminated against as a gamer, and you will find supposed "feminists" dismissing them as "sockpuppets" or "slaves", claiming their profiles are fakes and they do not exist, and generally dismissing them entirely. These are the people supposedly claiming they support equality and inclusivity. It should be telling that the pro-#GamerGate people are communicating through #NotYourShield and #AgainstHarassment while the anti-#GamerGate people are communicating through #AGamerInFourWords and #KillAllMen. I wouldn't support them, as they give me and you a bad name.

[NWN_babaYaga]

yes there is an agenda. The agenda is to spread the so called political correctnes aka censorship and no-freedom-of-speech as fast as they can. And young people are especialy targeted by that because they are the new generation. Dont be stupid and say otherwise. All this social and gender equality leads to censorship already where a different oppinion then they spread is by default "hate speech". Our EU pariliament is already trying to force that hate speech stuff thanks to the zionist organisations into our laws. You can read that actualy from the official side of the EU. So no it´s not just some random event in just the USA, this BS is worldwide under the disguise of "a better world" to come...

 

Official documents are for everyone free to read. Go and READ that stuff!

[BruceVC]

 

As I've said numerous times the word  " gamer" doesn't mean all gamers, in this discussion it has never meant that.

 

I've been assured by people supporting the journalists that this is not the case, which is the problem. These journalists carry weight and have reach - the moment those articles went up, the connection has been made and some of their readers went on the attack. No half-hearted retraction such as the one from Rock Paper Shotgun is going to matter.

 

 

 

What do you think the word " gamer" means in this topic? Every single person who plays games? White males who play games or something else?

[Blarghagh]

The narrative that video game journalists and their supporters have created to be picked up by mainstream media (for an example, see here: http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/sep/03/gamergate-corruption-games-anita-sarkeesian-zoe-quinn) states "self-identifying gamers", as in every single person who self-identifies as a gamer.

[Malcador]

What do you think the word " gamer" means in this topic? Every single person who plays games? White males who play games or something else?

If only the English language had adjectives. It means a gaming enthusiast, simple, believe it always has done that, even though you and your kind would like to redefine it to suit this purpose. In any event, that's still crap - if it means white males, that means all white males are the bad guy then ?

[BruceVC]

The narrative that video game journalists and their supporters have created to be picked up by mainstream media (for an example, see here: http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/sep/03/gamergate-corruption-games-anita-sarkeesian-zoe-quinn) states "self-identifying gamers", as in every single person who self-identifies as a gamer.

 

 

 

What do you think the word " gamer" means in this topic? Every single person who plays games? White males who play games or something else?

If only the English language had adjectives. It means a gaming enthusiast, simple, believe it always has done that, even though you and your kind would like to redefine it to suit this purpose. In any event, that's still crap - if it means white males, that means all white males are the bad guy then ?

 

 

Okay I see you guys still don't understand what the term "gamer " refers to. I'll try to explain it one more time because I have honestly explained this about 5-6 times on this thread alone

 

The term "gamer" does not refer to all white male gamers. If you look at websites like RPS or the Escapist the majority of there fan demographic happens to be white males ( the same as these forums) so why would these websites attack and insult there own fanbase with a generalization that  "gamers " are misogynistic. What business sense would this make? What are advantages of this? Its like opening a Mexican restaurant and saying you hate Mexicans. Its illogical

 

So the answer is "they wouldn't and they haven't ". The word "gamer " refers to white males who refuse to recognise inclusivity and changes to the gaming industry. The words "the gamer is dead" applies to people who don't want to be part of the change in the industry. But this is also figurative, you mustn't take it literally. It doesn't actually mean people who  are opposed to change must be killed,  it  just means many websites who support inclusivity won't tolerate an opinion that says " gaming is the select domain of men"   You guys have decided to create your own interpretation for this word for reasons that stupefy me.

 

If you disagree with me please find one article posted about this development, outside of radical feminists who I admit many  seem to have an inbred dislike of men, that says the term "gamer" refers to all white males?

 

In summary no gaming journalist is going to that stupid to basically suggest that the largest gaming  demographic in most gaming genres , white males, is irrelevant and bigoted. That is not what gaming journalists are saying 

[Malcador]

So, people taking the definition as it has been used for a long time and is the simplest interpretation is stupefying in the face of your concept of it referring to "refers to white males who refuse to recognise inclusivity and changes to the gaming industry". Interesting. Given that this nonsense started with Alexander (who's been bashing people as nerds...who does she think innovates the technology she uses, arts majors?), it's not unfair to take this as idiotic raging - is rather cute how these 'journalists' are a clique and rally together (funny insult about this mentioned them not leaving their "Twitter hug box").

 

One smart idea when writing things, is to write you mean and clearly. If they mean 'jerks online' then say that.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Malcador