Muscle Wizard

[Mayama]

 

 

 

 

The more I play this demo the more I'm realizing 2 things:

 

1) It's not a difficult as it initially felt

2) The classes are a smoke screen and the game would have been better off without them.

 

 

The classes are not a smoke screen. Classes are about how you approach something, which toolset you use. Roles are defiines by builds.

 

 

Yeah I think that's the difference. Roles are not defined by classes anymore but by builds.

 

The only thing defining anything in this game is the abilities/spells you have, nothing else. There is no building.

 

You choose a class and a trait and and spend completely meaningless attribute points. You can use every weapon, every armor and what not at your disposal.

 

The game might as well just have one class that specializes in dealing damage and and another class that specializes in healing. There is no building and there is no diversity in this game, it is simply an illusion.

 

 

You discriped the AD&D system to the point without even realizing it. You know the system used in the BG games. The only defining thing in AD&D games were the abilites and spells of the class. You did choose a class in AD&D and spend completly meaningless attribute points because their was only one perfect way to spend them on every class. You could use any armor, weapon in AD&D it just restricted you, like in this system. AD&D had classes specialized in dealing damage or healing etc. 

Their is diversity in this game you just refuse to see it. Most classes can do every role BUT they can only do that one role because the build you use makes them weak in the other roles.

[Grand_Commander13]

The only thing defining anything in this game is the abilities/spells you have, nothing else. There is no building.

 

You choose a class and a trait and and spend completely meaningless attribute points. You can use every weapon, every armor and what not at your disposal.

 

The game might as well just have one class that specializes in dealing damage and and another class that specializes in healing. There is no building and there is no diversity in this game, it is simply an illusion.

Yes, the fact that each class has a lot of abilities that only they can use is imaginary. Someone call Keanu Reeves: he'll know what to do.

[Stun]

Gotta disagree with you here. Attributes and gear can apply to both the Fighter and the Rogue - but the Fighter will ALWAYS have higher accuracy/health/stamina. That's the difference. Yeah, they can have the same bonuses - but don't underestimate the differences those base values will make. I think OE has actually struck a really nice balance with the classes. You can do unconventional things (like have a frontline wizard)... but there are still major differences between the classes that set them apart.

Well, I'm just going by gameplay experience. I'm looking at BB Fighter's Accuracy score and yes, it's lower than my Rogues's, but when I've got both of them meleeing on the front lines, I'm not noticing any difference.

 

Any number crunchers out there? Can someone tell me exactly how significant a 7 point accuracy score difference is in this game? Because that's what it is between my Rogue's and BB Fighter's.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Stun

[Helm]

 

 

 

 

 

The more I play this demo the more I'm realizing 2 things:

 

1) It's not a difficult as it initially felt

2) The classes are a smoke screen and the game would have been better off without them.

 

 

The classes are not a smoke screen. Classes are about how you approach something, which toolset you use. Roles are defiines by builds.

 

 

Yeah I think that's the difference. Roles are not defined by classes anymore but by builds.

 

The only thing defining anything in this game is the abilities/spells you have, nothing else. There is no building.

 

You choose a class and a trait and and spend completely meaningless attribute points. You can use every weapon, every armor and what not at your disposal.

 

The game might as well just have one class that specializes in dealing damage and and another class that specializes in healing. There is no building and there is no diversity in this game, it is simply an illusion.

 

 

You discriped the AD&D system to the point without even realizing it. You know the system used in the BG games. The only defining thing in AD&D games were the abilites and spells of the class. You did choose a class in AD&D and spend completly meaningless attribute points because their was only one perfect way to spend them on every class. You could use any armor, weapon in AD&D it just restricted you, like in this system. AD&D had classes specialized in dealing damage or healing etc. 

Their is diversity in this game you just refuse to see it. Most classes can do every role BUT they can only do that one role because the build you use makes them weak in the other roles.

 

Uh no. What about equipment requirements? What about roles like rogues? And so on.

 

There is none of that in PoE. There is no diversity.

[Grand_Commander13]

Uh no. What about equipment requirements? What about roles like rogues? And so on.

 

There is none of that in PoE. There is no diversity.

Today I learned that niche protection is the same thing as diversity.

 

Mind = Blown

[Marceror]

I expect that I'll eventually do an all player created party, and likely a muscle wizard will have a place in that group. Sounds like fun.

[Helm]

 

Uh no. What about equipment requirements? What about roles like rogues? And so on.

 

There is none of that in PoE. There is no diversity.

Today I learned that niche protection is the same thing as diversity.

 

Mind = Blown

 

You actually learned that the dumbing down in PoE has nothing to do with diversity, but interpret it however you like.

[Grand_Commander13]

Hey, has anyone seen the goal posts? I thought they were right here, but someone seems to have moved them.

[Mayama]

 

 

Uh no. What about equipment requirements? What about roles like rogues? And so on.

 

There is none of that in PoE. There is no diversity.

Today I learned that niche protection is the same thing as diversity.

 

Mind = Blown

 

You actually learned that the dumbing down in PoE has nothing to do with diversity, but interpret it however you like.

 

 

OK last attempt:

 

Diversity in AD&D:

 

Classes with a fixed playstyle

 

Diversity in PoE:

 

Builds with flexible playstyle defined by the class you choose.

 

 

You just cant get your head around the fact that you can make a thief tank, fighter tank, wizard tank etc. that your build also limits you to that type of playstyle and you cant do everything with one character is something you just dont get.

[Helm]

 

 

 

Uh no. What about equipment requirements? What about roles like rogues? And so on.

 

There is none of that in PoE. There is no diversity.

Today I learned that niche protection is the same thing as diversity.

 

Mind = Blown

 

You actually learned that the dumbing down in PoE has nothing to do with diversity, but interpret it however you like.

 

 

OK last attempt:

 

Diversity in AD&D:

 

Classes with a fixed playstyle

 

Diversity in PoE:

 

Builds with flexible playstyle defined by the class you choose.

 

 

You just cant get your head around the fact that you can make a thief tank, fighter tank, wizard tank etc. that your build also limits you to that type of playstyle and you cant do everything with one character is something you just dont get.

 

I also can't get my head around the fact that I can make my sniper in X-Com:Enemy Unknown a heavy weapons specialist.

 

Oh wait, you can't. The game allows diverse character builds (somewhat simplistic, but that is besides the point) even though it isn't even an RPG.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Helm

[Stun]

Yes, the fact that each class has a lot of abilities that only they can use is imaginary.

Well, I wouldn't call it imaginary. I would, however, call it "not a significant enough difference". If the only thing distinguishing a rogue from a Barbarian is that the Barbarian can hit 2 beetles at the same time for 50 damage then wild sprint straight to the 3rd, while the rogue can sneak attack one Beetle for 60 damage then teleport to the second, that's not "class diversity". That's just 2 melee specialists using different l33t tools. It's not a whole lot different than having 2 mages...one who specializes in Evocation spells, and another who's focusing on Necromancy.

 

 

IMO there should be more to distinguish the classes than just their combat talents.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Stun

[Matt516]

 

Gotta disagree with you here. Attributes and gear can apply to both the Fighter and the Rogue - but the Fighter will ALWAYS have higher accuracy/health/stamina. That's the difference. Yeah, they can have the same bonuses - but don't underestimate the differences those base values will make. I think OE has actually struck a really nice balance with the classes. You can do unconventional things (like have a frontline wizard)... but there are still major differences between the classes that set them apart.

Well, I'm just going by gameplay experience. I'm looking at BB Fighter's Accuracy score and yes, it's lower than my Rogues's, but when I've got both of them meleeing on the front lines, I'm not noticing any difference.

 

Any number crunchers out there? Can someone tell me exactly how significant a 7 point accuracy score difference is in this game? Because that's what it is between my Rogue's and BB Fighter's.

 

 

Each accuracy score point decreases the chance of a miss by 1% and increases the chance of a crit by 1%. This is assuming your accuracy and the enemy's deflection are within 5 points. If your accuracy is more than 5 points above their deflection, misses are impossible and you're decreasing the chance of a graze by 1% while increasing the chance of a crit by 1%. If your accuracy is more than 5 points below their deflection, crits are impossible and you're decreasing the chance of a hit while increasing the chance of a miss.

 

Too lazy to do the numbers on the exact increase in dps at the moment, but that should give you a good idea of how it works (according to the wiki, anyway).

[Mayama]

 

Yes, the fact that each class has a lot of abilities that only they can use is imaginary.

Well, I wouldn't call it imaginary. I would, however, call it "not significant enough". If the only thing distinguishing a rogue from a Barbarian is that the Barbarian can hit 2 beetles at the same time for 50 damage then wild sprint straight to the 3rd, while the rogue can sneak attack one Beetle for 50 damage then teleport to the second, that's not "class diversity". That's just 2 melee specialists using different l33t tools. It's not a whole lot different than having 2 mages...one who specializes in Evocation spells, and another who's focusing on Necromancy.

 

 

 

IMO there should be more to distinguish the classes than just their combat talents.

 

Whats your problem? Thats basicaly the difference between classes in AD&D. If you throw fireballs at someone or hit him with a sword its basicaly the same. 

 

The difference is that you are not forced to take useless characters with you like rogues because they are the only ones that can disarm traps and lock pick. It always felt anoying to be forced to bring a lockpickbot with you.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Mayama

[Stun]

Whats your problem? Thats basicaly the difference between classes in AD&D. If you throw fireballs at someone or hit him with a sword its basicaly the same.

But that's hardly all that distinguishes, say, a mage from a fighter in AD&D, is it. Fighters can't use wands or scrolls or cast spells. Mages can't wear armor or wield swords.

 

 

The difference is that you are not forced to take useless characters with you like rogues because they are the only ones that can disarm traps and lock pick. It always felt anoying to be forced to bring a lockpickbot with you.

A lock picker, trap disarmer, stealthy scout....in an RPG where a good dungeon experience should be about more than just combat.... is Useless. Yes I agree! Edited August 23, 2014 by Stun

[BrokenMask]

I also can't get my head around the fact that I can make my sniper in X-Com:Enemy Unknown a heavy weapons specialist.

 

Oh wait, you can't. The game allows diverse character builds (somewhat simplistic, but that is besides the point) even though it isn't even an RPG.

 

Just to point it out, that change did piss off the fans

[Mayama]

 

Whats your problem? Thats basicaly the difference between classes in AD&D. If you throw fireballs at someone or hit him with a sword its basicaly the same.

But that's hardly all that distinguishes a mage from a fighter in AD&D, is it. Fighters can't use wands or scrolls or cast spells. Mages can't wear armor or wield swords.

 

Thats true and I personaly always felt that its kinda weird how AD&D handled it. Right now we have a very low level party in beta. Fighters and similar archetypes seem to get more weapon specialization skills than mage like characters. I guess we dont have a real clue how it progresses. In BG1 my low level mage casted some magic missiles and started to whack people with his staff. 

 

They should give us a arena like testing area where we could test high level parties too.

[Stun]

I agree. And just so I'm not misunderstood, I'm not criticizing this aspect of the system. Unlike some grognards, I don't AT ALL oppose a system that intentionally blurs the lines between the classes so as to not make them very distinct from one another.

 

I only came to this muscle wizard thread to point out a neutral observation: This game feels like it doesn't need Classes. I just started a Rogue playthrough and right now he feels precisely the same as my barbarian under the hood. And my gamer instinct is telling me that it would be really cool (and it would feel natural) if my rogue could level up and get a Rage ability to compliment his crippling strikes.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Stun

[Helm]

 

Whats your problem? Thats basicaly the difference between classes in AD&D. If you throw fireballs at someone or hit him with a sword its basicaly the same.

But that's hardly all that distinguishes, say, a mage from a fighter in AD&D, is it. Fighters can't use wands or scrolls or cast spells. Mages can't wear armor or wield swords.

Obsidian screwed themselves over by removing equipment requirements.

 

The game has leather armor, but it is completely useless. There is no reason to use it because every class can just use full plate armor.

[BrokenMask]

 

 

Whats your problem? Thats basicaly the difference between classes in AD&D. If you throw fireballs at someone or hit him with a sword its basicaly the same.

But that's hardly all that distinguishes, say, a mage from a fighter in AD&D, is it. Fighters can't use wands or scrolls or cast spells. Mages can't wear armor or wield swords.

Obsidian screwed themselves over by removing equipment requirements.

 

The game has leather armor, but it is completely useless. There is no reason to use it because every class can just use full plate armor.

 

Wait, interview I read stated that armor choice is supposed to be faster attacking vs better defense, is that not in the game yet?

[Ganrich]

I agree. And just so I'm not misunderstood, I'm not criticizing this aspect of the system. Unlike some grognards, I don't AT ALL oppose a system that intentionally blurs the lines between the classes so as to not make them very distinct from one another.

 

I only came to this muscle wizard thread to point out a neutral observation: This game feels like it doesn't need Classes. I just started a Rogue playthrough and right now he feels precisely the same as my barbarian under the hood. And my gamer instinct is telling me that it would be really cool (and it would feel natural) if my rogue could level up and get a Rage ability to compliment his crippling strikes.

 

I feel like the Fighters, rogues, pallys, and barbs are the most noticeable culprits.  These classes need more to differentiate themselves.  While druids feel like a cross between a priest and a wizard with shapeshift.  However, shapeshift makes a pretty big difference and Druids aren't a heal oriented as Priests.

Chanters - have their chant/phrase/invocation system that feels different from the monk and Cipher (but more like the cipher).

Ciphers - ^

Monks - feel like intended offtanks.  they are there to keep 1 person in check, or harass a back line. 

Ranger - their pet makes a world of difference and they feel different as a byproduct. 

 

I would like to say that I noticed a huge difference in some classes by selecting different attributes.  While it is less noticeable with others. 

 

I think we need feats/talents that further differentiate the classes.  These Talents need to be something unique to the class and not just a buff to an already available ability/skill/spell, and increase to engagement limit, or a weapon specialization.  I know Obsidian said that the beta wouldn't have many feats, and that input might be useful.  I think this is the topic they were waiting for on that front and requires a new thread to get ideas rolling.

[Answermancer]

Wait, interview I read stated that armor choice is supposed to be faster attacking vs better defense, is that not in the game yet? 

 

It is, but it's not currently very noticeable (I think they need better feedback of some sort or make it really drastic I guess) so people act like it's useless.

[Ganrich]

 

 

Whats your problem? Thats basicaly the difference between classes in AD&D. If you throw fireballs at someone or hit him with a sword its basicaly the same.

But that's hardly all that distinguishes, say, a mage from a fighter in AD&D, is it. Fighters can't use wands or scrolls or cast spells. Mages can't wear armor or wield swords.

Obsidian screwed themselves over by removing equipment requirements.

 

The game has leather armor, but it is completely useless. There is no reason to use it because every class can just use full plate armor.

 

 

I disagree.  Attack speed is tied to armor.  So, the heavier your armor the slower you are.  Are the numbers right?  I am sure they aren't, but I wouldn't put heavy armor on a ranged wizard with long cast times with no resolve.   If they get attacked they will be in a world of hurt.  On the same note I wouldn't have heavy armor on an archer build or a rogue/barb using light-fast weapons. 

[Matt516]

 

Gotta disagree with you here. Attributes and gear can apply to both the Fighter and the Rogue - but the Fighter will ALWAYS have higher accuracy/health/stamina. That's the difference. Yeah, they can have the same bonuses - but don't underestimate the differences those base values will make. I think OE has actually struck a really nice balance with the classes. You can do unconventional things (like have a frontline wizard)... but there are still major differences between the classes that set them apart.

Well, I'm just going by gameplay experience. I'm looking at BB Fighter's Accuracy score and yes, it's lower than my Rogues's, but when I've got both of them meleeing on the front lines, I'm not noticing any difference.

 

Any number crunchers out there? Can someone tell me exactly how significant a 7 point accuracy score difference is in this game? Because that's what it is between my Rogue's and BB Fighter's.

 

 

Here's the maths: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/67761-dps-vs-accuracy-deflection-heres-the-maths-enjoy/?p=1490531

 

Your 7 points in Accuracy is worth 7-9% dps, or about 4 points of MIG.

[Answermancer]

 

 

 

Whats your problem? Thats basicaly the difference between classes in AD&D. If you throw fireballs at someone or hit him with a sword its basicaly the same.

But that's hardly all that distinguishes, say, a mage from a fighter in AD&D, is it. Fighters can't use wands or scrolls or cast spells. Mages can't wear armor or wield swords.

Obsidian screwed themselves over by removing equipment requirements.

 

The game has leather armor, but it is completely useless. There is no reason to use it because every class can just use full plate armor.

 

 

I disagree.  Attack speed is tied to armor.  So, the heavier your armor the slower you are.  Are the numbers right?  I am sure they aren't, but I wouldn't put heavy armor on a ranged wizard with long cast times with no resolve.   If they get attacked they will be in a world of hurt.  On the same note I wouldn't have heavy armor on an archer build or a rogue/barb using light-fast weapons. 

 

 

Yeah, I feel like they just need to tweak the numbers to be much more serious and noticeable. Make plate armor reduce speed to 1/3 or 1/4 even instead of just 1/2 and instead of leather being 0.8 or 0.7 or whatever don't give it nearly as much penalty.

 

And rebalance other things accordingly but that should really come as a given.

 

That would also support changing one of the stats to increase action speed (which I support) since then a plate-wearer would really want that stat to offset the penalty while a nimble leather wearer could either invest in other stats or make themselves extremely speedy by pumping it.

 

They should rebalance weapon speeds as well so that daggers and really light weapons attack 2 or more times as quickly as slow ones (assuming the damage difference is still as big as it is now).

 

Then a person in plate with a heavy weapon would need to invest in that stat or attack extremely slowly while a character in leather with daggers gets many more attacks in that time, especially if they pump the stat.

 

Edited August 23, 2014 by Answermancer

[Stun]

 

I agree. And just so I'm not misunderstood, I'm not criticizing this aspect of the system. Unlike some grognards, I don't AT ALL oppose a system that intentionally blurs the lines between the classes so as to not make them very distinct from one another.

 

I only came to this muscle wizard thread to point out a neutral observation: This game feels like it doesn't need Classes. I just started a Rogue playthrough and right now he feels precisely the same as my barbarian under the hood. And my gamer instinct is telling me that it would be really cool (and it would feel natural) if my rogue could level up and get a Rage ability to compliment his crippling strikes.

 

I feel like the Fighters, rogues, pallys, and barbs are the most noticeable culprits.  These classes need more to differentiate themselves.  While druids feel like a cross between a priest and a wizard with shapeshift.  However, shapeshift makes a pretty big difference and Druids aren't a heal oriented as Priests.

Chanters - have their chant/phrase/invocation system that feels different from the monk and Cipher (but more like the cipher).

Ciphers - ^

Monks - feel like intended offtanks.  they are there to keep 1 person in check, or harass a back line. 

Ranger - their pet makes a world of difference and they feel different as a byproduct. 

 

I would like to say that I noticed a huge difference in some classes by selecting different attributes.  While it is less noticeable with others. 

 

I think we need feats/talents that further differentiate the classes.  These Talents need to be something unique to the class and not just a buff to an already available ability/skill/spell, and increase to engagement limit, or a weapon specialization.  I know Obsidian said that the beta wouldn't have many feats, and that input might be useful.  I think this is the topic they were waiting for on that front and requires a new thread to get ideas rolling.

 

Monk is the next class I'm going to try out and see for myself

 

I wish they would have let us build a whole party at once in this beta. I'm really getting tired of BB_Everyone.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Stun