(DPS) vs (Accuracy - Deflection). Here's the maths. Enjoy.

[Matt516]

I've noticed some people asking about how much damage increase a point of Accuracy is worth. I've also noticed some people making incorrect arguments based on incorrect information. So I figured "Hey, I'm an engineer. I'll do some maths." So I did.

 

Here's the maths. It's a plot of your average dps (relative to the base damage) versus your accuracy. Calculated using the rules given in the wiki for combat rolls as of today.

 

.

 

This can be used (among other things) to tell when (if anywhere - hint, it's nowhere) DEX gives you more damage than MIG. Summary below:

 

Accuracy/Deflection within 5 points:

Marginal gain/loss for 1 Accuracy: 1.5% dps (relative to base dmg)

 

Accuracy/Deflection within 5-45 points:

Marginal gain/loss for 1 Accuracy: 1% dps (relative to base dmg)

 

Accuracy/Deflection outside 45 points:

Marginal gain/loss for 1 Accuracy: 0.5% dps (relative to base dmg)

 

There are the numbers. All other things being equal, the Accuracy bonus from DEX always gives you less dps increase than the damage bonus from MIG. When fighting enemies with Deflection much higher or lower than your Accuracy, each 2 points of Accuracy is equivalent to 1 point of MIG (where dps is concerned, that is. dps isn't everything of course).

 

Please take this math into account when making arguments about stats, power, the value of inherent Accuracy bonuses (boni?), the value of DEX relative to MIG, etc.

 

I'm done mathing for tonight. Peace.

 

PS - Source file for doing your own maths:

New Excel: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/29325716/Pillars%20of%20Eternity%20DPS%20calc.xlsx

Old Excel: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/29325716/Pillars%20of%20Eternity%20DPS%20calc.xls

 

 

EDIT: A quick note about why DEX, while giving less damage than MIG, isn't unilaterally inferior to it.

 

DEX affects Reflex save instead of Fort save. This lets you dodge AoE attacks. Also, the % increases in dps I've calculated also apply to spell/ability duration increases/decreases on graze/crit, which aren't affected by MIG at all as far as I know.

 

So for scripted interactions that take DEX, characters who want to dodge AoE attacks, and characters who are more interested in getting long duration abilities/spells by critting with them, DEX is better. There may also be one-off abilities/passives that give bonuses from DEX as well - I'd imagine the rogue will have some.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Matt516

[Matt516]

I give anyone and everyone full reign to reference this when arguing about mechanics. ;P

[Leferd]

Cool. It'll come handy -atleast until Josh, Tim, and crew decide to change the values.

[Sensuki]

Have you taken into account weapon speeds?

 

Because I don't think you have

 

Animation speed is 30 FPS

 

Recovery time mirrors the action animation.

 

Fast Melee Weapons have 20 frame animation, 20 frame recovery unarmored

Normal 1H and 2h Weapons have 30 fps animation

 

Weapon styles:

Two weapons: not sure of exact mathematics, but the fastest combo is a rapier and a stiletto, recovery time is very small

 

Single 1H no shield: +50% recovery time, +15 Accuracy

2H Weapon: +50% recovery time

 

Normal 1H with no shield/no armor has 30 frame animation and 45 frame recovery

2H weapon/no armor has 30 frame animation and 45 frame recovery 

Edited August 23, 2014 by Sensuki

[Matt516]

Cool. It'll come handy -atleast until Josh, Tim, and crew decide to change the values.

 

Well - if I'm still lurking here (I expect I will be) I'll update it.

[Matt516]

Have you taken into account weapon speeds?

 

Because I don't think you have

 

Doesn't matter. I'm calculating dps, not damage per hit.

 

EDIT: Ok, I'm calculating damage per hit too. Still - doesn't matter. The comparisons between MIG and DEX are the same.

 

I'm not taking DT into account though. Too complicated and it has absolutely zero bearing on the attributes argument (MIG vs DEX and the value of Accuracy), which is the main reason I wrote this.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Matt516

[Answermancer]

Cool, I wonder why they decided to make Dex give a smaller increase than Might, I'm sure they did this math as well.

 

Seems like they should nerf Might slightly and things would be better.

[Matt516]

Cool, I wonder why they decided to make Dex give a smaller increase than Might, I'm sure they did this math as well.

 

Seems like they should nerf Might slightly and things would be better.

 

Well... DEX affects Reflex save instead of Fort save. Aaaand..... the % increases in dps I've calculated also apply to spell/ability duration increases/decreases on graze/crit, which aren't affected by MIG at all as far as I know.

 

So for scripted interactions that take DEX, characters who want high reflexes, and characters who rely on critting with duration spells for extra duration, DEX would be better.

 

It does seem a bit weak, still.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Matt516

[Sensuki]

Doesn't matter. I'm calculating dps, not damage per hit.

Weapon speed affects DPS.

 

Shouldn't you be saying the other way around?

 

You're calculating damage per hit, not DPS.

[Ganrich]

Although, Perception is largely considered "not as useful" I would go Dex over might for a interrupt build.  If I hit more consistently then my chances to interrupt go up.  It's one of those situations where a Dex build might see more tangible benefits from being more utilitarian over raw damage.  While high dex, and decent Perception, would do solid damage.  Just not as much as might.  However, it would stop some damage from coming in... which is good.  I feel dex is still in a good place.

 

Awesome work btw.

EDIT:  I realize this post was out of left field, but I felt like sharing my thoughts.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Ganrich

[Matt516]

Have you taken into account weapon speeds?

 

Because I don't think you have

 

Animation speed is 30 FPS

 

Recovery time mirrors the action animation.

 

Fast Melee Weapons have 20 frame animation, 20 frame recovery unarmored

Normal 1H and 2h Weapons have 30 fps animation

 

Weapon styles:

Two weapons: not sure of exact mathematics, but the fastest combo is a rapier and a stiletto, recovery time is very small

 

Single 1H no shield: +50% recovery time, +15 Accuracy

2H Weapon: +50% recovery time

 

Normal 1H with no shield/no armor has 30 frame animation and 45 frame recovery

2H weapon/no armor has 30 frame animation and 45 frame recovery 

 

Doesn't matter. Trust me. Dps is calculated as your average damage per second. Base dps is your weapon damage multiplied by your attacks per second. Changes to dps from graze/crit aren't affected by this attack speed because dps is damage per second - the time dependency is already accounted for.

[Sensuki]

Right, so you mean independent of weapon styles.

 

Good post anyway, I think the general consensus was that Might was overpowered Dexterity is underpowered. I've seen pics of 19 Might / 3 Dex and it's actually really good lol.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Sensuki

[Answermancer]

 

Cool, I wonder why they decided to make Dex give a smaller increase than Might, I'm sure they did this math as well.

 

Seems like they should nerf Might slightly and things would be better.

 

Well... DEX affects Reflex save instead of Fort save. Aaaand..... the % increases in dps I've calculated also apply to spell/ability duration increases/decreases on graze/crit, which aren't affected by MIG at all as far as I know.

 

So for scripted interactions that take DEX, characters who want high reflexes, and characters who rely on critting with duration spells for extra duration, DEX would be better.

 

It does seem a bit weak, still.

 

 

Sounds like they could reduce the Might bonus to 1.5% or lower and that might help a bit with it seeming overpowered.

 

Weapon speed affects DPS.

 

Shouldn't you be saying the other way around?

 

You're calculating damage per hit, not DPS.

 

DPS is DPS, I'm not sure why it would matter? All Accuracy does for damage is increase crit chance and lower glance/miss chance, those chances are the same for a slow or a fast weapon so the way they affect DPS is the same (a faster weapon makes more total attacks but the same distribution of glances/hits/misses/crits as a slow one).

Edited August 23, 2014 by Answermancer

[Matt516]

Right, so you mean independent of weapon styles.

 

Yes. The results in this plot are completely independent of weapon styles. A 5% increase to average damage on something that hits a lot is the same as a 5% increase to average damage on something that hits slowly. When you bring DT into the mix, things could get complicated - different weapon styles do benefit differently in different situations due to the effect of DT.

 

But I'm not interested in that. As I said, I'm only interested in weighing the change in basic dps caused by stat changes. I can compare MIG and DEX completely fairly and DT/weapon styles don't matter one bit, because the damage increase from MIG and DEX will be affected the same by that DT and weapon styles.

 

TL;DR - DT/weapon speed doesn't matter when comparing increases in dps from DEX and MIG. Or to put it another way - the increases in dps from DEX I've calculated and the ones from MIG are applied to your dps before DT and weapon speeds start affecting dps. After these increases are applied, then your dps is further reduced by armor. It's that reduction which will be affected by DT and weapon speed. Hope that clears things up.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Matt516

[Stun]

Thank you for this, sir. We need more threads like this. I want to learn the system. Actually we all need to, otherwise our mechanics-based feedback is worthless to the devs

 

It does seem a bit weak, still.

Disappointingly weak, actually. Rogues are the class that gets the high end Accuracy scores, yet it looks like Might will be the stat to pump if you want them to play their dev-stated role of "heavy hitter".

 

 

<shakes head>

 

C'mon josh. Grow your backbone and turbo charge these stats already

Edited August 23, 2014 by Stun

[Sensuki]

The attributes aren't really impactful as it is (other than Intellect), I think bumping Dex would be better than Nerfing Might.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Sensuki

[limaxophobiacq]

 

 

Cool, I wonder why they decided to make Dex give a smaller increase than Might, I'm sure they did this math as well.

 

Seems like they should nerf Might slightly and things would be better.

 

Well... DEX affects Reflex save instead of Fort save. Aaaand..... the % increases in dps I've calculated also apply to spell/ability duration increases/decreases on graze/crit, which aren't affected by MIG at all as far as I know.

 

So for scripted interactions that take DEX, characters who want high reflexes, and characters who rely on critting with duration spells for extra duration, DEX would be better.

 

It does seem a bit weak, still.

 

 

Sounds like they could reduce the Might bonus to 1.5% or lower and that might help a bit with it seeming overpowered.

 

I'd much rather they increased it to 3%, had Dex give +2 Accuracy, and doubled the effects of the rest of the Attributes as well so you actually felt a difference. If they want to avoid fractional percentages which it seems like they do doubling would also let them balance it a bit more granularly.

Edited August 23, 2014 by limaxophobiacq

[Answermancer]

The attributes aren't really impactful as it is (other than Intellect), I think bumping Dex would be better than Nerfing Might.

 

You're probably right. I really like high-Dex crit-happy characters too so I'd be all for it on a personal level ;P

[limaxophobiacq]

Something to take into account is that the actuall bonus damage increase of raising Might by 1 point isn't actually 2% of your current damage, but 2% of base damage, so if you're at Might 15 rasing to 16 its only a (132/130=1,0154) 1,54% actual damage increase. So it's possible the current balance between Dex and Might is actually fine. (Though I still think all attributes could stant to have a lot more impact).

 

This is obviously true for all stats except Dex and gets more noticable the higher stats get; the higher your stat, the less another +1 matters (20 int to 21 only gives +2,5% actual increase in area/duration). Personally I don't think this is very good design given how it disincentivizes exceptional Attributes.

Edited August 23, 2014 by limaxophobiacq

[Matt516]

Something to take into account is that the actuall bonus damage increase of raising Might by 1 point isn't actually 2% of your current damage, but 2% of base damage, so if you're at Might 15 rasing to 16 its only a (132/130=1,0154) 1,54% actual damage increase. So it's possible the current balance between Dex and Might is actually fine. (Though I still think all attributes could stant to have a lot more impact).

 

Is that correct though? That would be an awfully complicated way of applying the bonus. Any reason it wouldn't just be the much simpler 1.30 * base damage ---> 1.32 * base damage? (for 15 MIG to 16 MIG)

 

EDIT: I might understand what you're saying - you're calculating the percentage damage increase an additional point of MIG gives you from your previous MIG-adjusted damage. Fair enough. But the same thing would apply to the increases in damage from DEX/Accuracy (I'm pretty sure) so I don't think it makes a difference. The values I've calculated for Accuracy dps increase are relative to base, as is the 2% value for MIG. So MIG is still 2X the damage increase of DEX at the 5-45 point disparity mark and 1.33X the damage increase of DEX at the <5 point disparity mark.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Matt516

[limaxophobiacq]

 

Something to take into account is that the actuall bonus damage increase of raising Might by 1 point isn't actually 2% of your current damage, but 2% of base damage, so if you're at Might 15 rasing to 16 its only a (132/130=1,0154) 1,54% actual damage increase. So it's possible the current balance between Dex and Might is actually fine. (Though I still think all attributes could stant to have a lot more impact).

 

Is that correct though? That would be an awfully complicated way of applying the bonus. Any reason it wouldn't just be the much simpler 1.30 * base damage ---> 1.32 * base damage? (for 15 MIG to 16 MIG)

 

 

Yes that's what it is, but it's only a +1,54% increase from your current damage.

 

Say for simplicities sake you have a  weapon with a base damage of 50.

 

With 15 MIG you're doing 65 damage per hit, with 16 you'd get 66. Not actually a +2% increase in damage, but an increase in 2% of the base damage. The increase you'd get in average DPS from increasing Dex on the other hand would as far as I understand it actually be in relation to your actual damage and not base damage. 

[Matt516]

 

With 15 MIG you're doing 65 damage per hit, with 16 you'd get 66. Not actually a +2% increase in damage, but an increase in 2% of the base damage. The increase you'd get in average DPS from increasing Dex on the other hand would as far as I understand it actually be in relation to your actual damage and not base damage. 

 

 

I don't think so... See my (edited) previous post. Your calculation isn't incorrect, but it's a different calculation than mine. Yours is the marginal percentage increase relative to the previously adjusted value, whereas mine is the marginal percentage increase relative to base damage.

 

I calculated the DEX dps increase to be purely relative to base damage because that's how the 2% for MIG is expressed. So they can be directly compared. Comparing the % increase you calculated to the % increase I calculated is apples and oranges - they're not the same thing.

 

I could calculate the marginal increase from previous adjusted damage and redo the plot, but I don't see the point. The dps increase from DEX and MIG would have the same relationship - that is, the MIG dps increase is 2X or 1.33X the DEX dps increase (depending on relative Accuracy/Deflection values).

Edited August 23, 2014 by Matt516

[Stun]

Something to take into account is that the actuall bonus damage increase of raising Might by 1 point isn't actually 2% of your current damage, but 2% of base damage

You're kidding me. Doesn't that come out to, like, less than +1 point of damage per point of Might if you're using a *greatsword*? In a game where friggin level 4 spiderlings have 150 health? I hope I'm not the only one here who's cringing at these nearly worthless penny-increment stats.

 

 

Change of plans. I'm gonna roll up a 3 might, 3 dex Fighter first thing in the morning and see if I can't STILL hold my own in melee against BB_Fighter and BB_rogue in a damage contest.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Stun

[Ganrich]

 

Something to take into account is that the actuall bonus damage increase of raising Might by 1 point isn't actually 2% of your current damage, but 2% of base damage

You're kidding me. Doesn't that come out to like less than a 1 point of damage per point of Might? In a game where friggin spiders have 150 health? I hope I'm not the only one here who's cringing at these nearly worthless penny-increment stats.

 

 

Change of plans. I'm gonna roll up a 3 might, 3 dex Fighter first thing in the morning and see if I can't STILL hold my own in melee against BB_Fighter and BB_rogue

 

 

If it weren't for the enemy health pool... I would point out that 3rd edition only gives you 1 point of damage per 2 points into STR, but them PoE Spider health pools are huge. 

 

I definitely think the stats need to have more effect, and that goes double if they lower the number of points we have to allocate come release. 

[limaxophobiacq]

 

Something to take into account is that the actuall bonus damage increase of raising Might by 1 point isn't actually 2% of your current damage, but 2% of base damage, so if you're at Might 15 rasing to 16 its only a (132/130=1,0154) 1,54% actual damage increase. So it's possible the current balance between Dex and Might is actually fine. (Though I still think all attributes could stant to have a lot more impact).

 

Is that correct though? That would be an awfully complicated way of applying the bonus. Any reason it wouldn't just be the much simpler 1.30 * base damage ---> 1.32 * base damage? (for 15 MIG to 16 MIG)

 

EDIT: I might understand what you're saying - you're calculating the percentage damage increase an additional point of MIG gives you from your previous MIG-adjusted damage. Fair enough. But the same thing would apply to the increases in damage from DEX/Accuracy (I'm pretty sure) so I don't think it makes a difference. The values I've calculated for Accuracy dps increase are relative to base, as is the 2% value for MIG. So MIG is still 2X the damage increase of DEX at the 5-45 point disparity mark and 1.33X the damage increase of DEX at the <5 point disparity mark.

 

 

It's quite possible I've missunderstood how the increased average DPS from higher Dex would scale proportionally.