Subtly sneaking in some inspiration for Justin: Roman Hurko - Come Let Us Worship

I'm not sure I understand how camera angle and how close music is to the foreground correlate...?

I'm sorry. I thought I was clear. The further away the camera is from the game world, the further away the players are from the people and emotions populating it. How do you form an emotional connection to a character rendered so small you cannot see his or her face or hear his or her voice? How do you invest a scene with sorrow or humor or ire or suspense when viewed through a static lens perched high above?

 

With music.

 

Background music adds to the emotional and aesthetic landscape of a 3D environment; foreground music determines the emotional and aesthetic landscape.

 

....

 

Several people here are using Straw Man arguments. I am not saying that every, or even a majority of the tracks in an isometric RPG should strongly and deliberately convey emotional tones. But -some- of them do. Ideally, in an isometric RPG, you have lots of generic background music: stuff that plays when you're moseying through town, or wandering through a forest. But when the gameplay and narrative reach a climax, so too should the music. There's a reason some of the most memorable tracks of gaming music are character themes, boss themes and title themes. Music should be powerful and moving--not always, but once in a while. This is extremely important in an RPG.

 

Have I explained myself better this time? I'm typing all this via my tablet, so its really difficult to go over and reread what I've written.

I feel for you using the tablet.  I've posted a couple of times from my phone, and it's a real bitch.  Anyhow, I'm one of the folks who wants to keep the main title more 'elusive' and less 'epic,' but I can see using music to help create the mood.  I think I read somewhere, maybe here, that melodramas, both before and after the rise of cinema, used a lot of music in the way you describe.  Even though it's kind of fallen out of vogue in movies, melodramatic music has a big role in TV shows today.  In particular, I'm quite fond of the LOST soundtrack.  Some films still have that heavy melodramatic feel to the music, such as There Will Be Blood.  A lot of movies and TV shows also have music that is more background as you describe, AL.

 

I think having some really heavy (or sorrowful or playful) tunes could be helpful as long as it's not overdone.  Like you said, once in a while.  You just don't want the listener to become tired of the music over time.  Personally, I didn't much care for the main BG theme, but I think that's because it's so in your face and I had to hear it in long stretches.  If it had been played more sparingly, or even if the arrangement gave the listener a breather every now and then, I think I would have enjoyed it more over time.

One thing I forgot to mention that needs to be said:

 

The single most important piece of music is the title theme. The music that plays at the main menu, or during the ultimate climax of the endgame--the very first piece of music the player hears, even before he or she starts playing the game for the first time; the very first piece of music the player hears EVERY time he or she loads up a game to continue playing.

 

Why is it so important?

 

It sets the stage for the ENTIRE play experience. It establishes the overall emotional tone of the entire game.

 

At this point, it's premature to discuss what PoE's main theme/title theme should sound like because Obisidian has been so mum on details of the main plotline. What is the tone of the story Pillars of Eternity will try to tell? Will it be ambitious and rousing, like Baldur's Gate? Introspective and mysterious like Planescape Torment? Wonderous and severe like Icewind Dale? Melancholy or Joyful? Regimented or free-form? We don't know. The important takeaway here--the only takeaway, really--is that the main title theme is immensely important.

 

An easy way to tell if a title theme is appropriate (at least for dunderheads like myself who know nothing of the correct musical terminology) is to apply adjectives to it. If a track of music generates the same adjectives to describe it as the main narrative, it fits; if it doesn't, it doesn't. The same applies to character themes. It's all about... resonance. When the music resonates with the thematic or character elements of the game, the game world and the people in it become greater than the sum of the disparate parts.

 

Am I explaining this well yet?

 

....

 

Re: the music in the beta, I think I (and others here) was too harsh in my initial reaction (though that is partly Obsidian's fault: if they're only going to put a few tracks of music in the beta build, they really need to put their best foot forward, so to speak), because--evidently--it is NOT character theme music or title theme music, but rather town music. That is to say, it's intended to be background music, and it is therefore acceptable that it lacks a strong melody/tune, it's fine that it's not terribly memorable, because it is meant to remain in the background to accentuate the experience. And as background music, it is absolutely fantastic.

 

But, as a backer, and as a gamer who has seen so many games try to echo the successes of the classic CRPGs and fall flat on their face in every respect, I won't really be happy until I hear some music that is meant to be in the "foreground." I want to hear something strong, something memorable--something that makes me sit up in my chair and take notice.

 

....

 

A third and final disparate thought: something I've considered re: game music is that, in many cases, older tracks are as or more memorable than newer tracks, even though much of the older music was hampered by technological limitations. Nobuo Uematsus midi music in the early Final Fantasies remains far superior the the richly layered orchestral tracks found in the newer games. I think a big part of that is simply having a strong, recognizable tune--a simple string of notes that dominate the piece. If you can reduce a track of music to a simple midi arrangement and it's still good, it's good music; if not, it's probably not good music (at least for games). Once you've got that simple "core" (the tune?) additional sounds and melodies can be added/layered on top of it--IE the difference between the midi One Winged Angel and the orchestral version found in the (terrible) Advent Children movie.

The title theme is, as far as I know, in the backer beta, though it may or may not be completely finished. It is what plays during the very first menu screen. Not during character creation (the character creation piece is currently the music that plays in Dyrford and will be replaced with something else later).

I have to say I am getting bloody sick of the combat track.

Everyone has there opinion on music.

I have to say I am getting bloody sick of the combat track.

Why am I not surprised? Once again, thanks again for your fervent and systematic beta testing.

The title theme is, as far as I know, in the backer beta, though it may or may not be completely finished. It is what plays during the very first menu screen. Not during character creation (the character creation piece is currently the music that plays in Dyrford and will be replaced with something else later).

Pretty sure the Dyrford music is the Dyrford music. It was announced as such several Kickstarter updates ago, and the theme is named after the town.

 

Not sure why you're saying that theme will be replaced later.

 

@Sensuki with all the hours you're putting into the beta I'm not surprised that you're growing weary of the combat music.

 

The title theme is, as far as I know, in the backer beta, though it may or may not be completely finished. It is what plays during the very first menu screen. Not during character creation (the character creation piece is currently the music that plays in Dyrford and will be replaced with something else later).

Pretty sure the Dyrford music is the Dyrford music. It was announced as such several Kickstarter updates ago, and the theme is named after the town.

 

Not sure why you're saying that theme will be replaced later.

 

@Sensuki with all the hours you're putting into the beta I'm not surprised that you're growing weary of the combat music.

 

writing music for media generally cues, themes are about 1 minute long.  No matter what you are composing the music should never be tiring to the listener.

Battle Music Theme should never become boring or tiring even if you have listened a 1000 times because that music will most likely play everytime your in a battle.  Nice that the theme is created as a couple varations to bring interest into the game. 

Variety is nice, and my understanding is that we will be getting more of that as the game gets more polished.

 

A lot of people find the current battle music to be rather jarring, so for a someone like Sensuki, who's spending a large number of hours daily testing the same small section of the game, I could see how he might get tired of hearing a particular theme.

 

More variation will go a long way to improving that, I think.

 

The title theme is, as far as I know, in the backer beta, though it may or may not be completely finished. It is what plays during the very first menu screen. Not during character creation (the character creation piece is currently the music that plays in Dyrford and will be replaced with something else later).

Pretty sure the Dyrford music is the Dyrford music. It was announced as such several Kickstarter updates ago, and the theme is named after the town.

 

Not sure why you're saying that theme will be replaced later.

 

@Sensuki with all the hours you're putting into the beta I'm not surprised that you're growing weary of the combat music.

 

 

I meant that it will be replaced during character creation with another piece of music.

Oh, right. I can see that I mis-read that. Sorry about that.

 

Justin: May I add a request? And this is for battle music. We only have one battle tune in the beta, so that's all I got to go on. My main gripe is that it's pretty much full on all the time. It's a bit like that funny scene in Cable Guy, when Jim Carrey sings out the battle music when he's fighting his tormented "friend". What I'd like to see for battle music (especially since combat tends to drag on at times, in boss fights, definitely) is some slightly lower tempo and shifts in melody, oh, and also, less forte, please. This would make the battle music enhance the melee experience, instead of telling us all the time "This is urgent, it's now or never, else we end up dead."

Yes I agree, we're definitely looking into it. Sort of relates to what I said above. I would also prefer if the big huge epic music would only trigger when its meaningful to do so. For example, if your party is overpowered compared to an encounter, then the music shouldnt feel epic.

Baldur's Gate "Accidentally attacked a squirrel" music:

 

It had humoristic value, the first few times, at least.

 

Anyway, one possible approach would be simply not to have combat music except for specific encounters in the game. I don't recall ATM whether IWD was like this or if combat music was simply more subdued or didn't play systematically, but I never got annoyed by it in IWD like I did in the Baldur's Gate series.

Edited September 10, 201411 yr by Zeckul

One thing that I think is a good idea for ANYONE composing or determining music for a game is to follow Koji Kondo's approach: when he composes music for a game, he sits in a room with his eyes closed and listens to it. For hours. If he doesn't get sick or tired of it after several hours, then it's good music for a game. Alternatively, if it does begin to grate, then it's no good. This approach makes a lot of sense because game music loops, and is generally consumed over fairly long durations.

 

And while some of us may not recognize his name, I'm certain that ALL of us have heard and can immediately recognize Koji Kondo's music. He's the guy who has composed (and continues to compose) all of the iconic tunes Nintendo uses in its biggest games--most notable Super Mario Bros. and The Legend of Zelda.

I found his method very effective for testing playability and enjoyability, and it may give Justin some ideas of how to write his music!

Plus the guys just a boss

 

Edited September 13, 201411 yr by Falkon Swiftblade

That is incredible.

Hey Justin, I'm not sure if you're still watching this thread. But I want to say that I just launched the backer beta and listened to the main theme again.

 

In spite of my previous statement that I didn't think the song was worthy of being the main theme, today, for the first time, I'm starting to "get it". It took a while, and I'm not sure if that's such a good thing, but the tune is growing on me as the main theme for the game. Just thought I'd share.

I have to say I am getting bloody sick of the combat track.

That's why I turned it off.

I quite like it, but I'm not going to listen to it 50 times over while testing. I'll save the repetition in listening for the actual gameplay.

I've said it elsewhere, but I must say that the footstep sound system is just about perfect right now, including the level of the sound. Thx!

Yep the new footsteps are great, and they change with the surface too 

I've never seen the show, but I know it's very popular here and I think he succeeds in the music not being so grating even though it's repetitive. So maybe something in his technique could be used in the battle music?

 

The games music is fine.  Like most RPG's it is maybe too low in game which makes it hard to hear and muffled.  So maybe they want to slightly up the volume on it but that is all it needs.

I've been turning it off because I'm sick of hearing it. That may be because there's only a few tracks or it may be for other reasons, either way there it is.

I thought the music was great. 

 

 

...so I turned it off entirely ! I don't want to risk being fed up with it before even playing the full game.

 

 

Kudos to you Justin!

Edited October 30, 201411 yr by Quantics