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Experience point system in the beta and onwards


Your thoughts on the xp system in the beta  

217 members have voted

  1. 1. What kind of xp system to do you want to see after having played the beta?

    • Quest xp only
      30
    • Quest xp and objectives that are large in scope
      52
    • Objective xp that are per dungeon or per map (minus bosses), including exploration and quest xp
      78
    • Objective xp per encounter (including "trash mobs"), per picked lock, per sneak, etc., plus quest xp
      53
    • Kill xp plus quest xp
      76


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The bugs, UI issues and unfinished combat system aren't bugging me. That can all be fixed/improved.

 

I simply don't think that the design (mechanics and systems) of the game is very good.

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Pillars of Eternity Josh Sawyer's Quest: The Quest for Quests - an isometric fantasy stealth RPG with optional combat and no pesky XP rewards for combat, skill usage or exploration.


PoE is supposed to be a spiritual successor to Baldur's GateJosh Sawyer doesn't like the Baldur's Gate series (more) - PoE is supposed to reward us for our achievements


~~~~~~~~~~~


"Josh Sawyer created an RPG where always avoiding combat and never picking locks makes you a powerful warrior and a master lockpicker." -Helm, very critcal and super awesome RPG fan


"I like XP for things other than just objectives. When there is no rewards for combat or other activities, I think it lessens the reward for being successful at them." -Feargus Urquhart, OE CEO


"Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat [...] the lack of rewards for killing creatures [in PoE] makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game)" -George Ziets, Game Dev.

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Yeh, PS:T is the very definition of "more than the sum of its parts."

 

<snobmode>

I have long felt that computer games should, and eventually will, evolve into a serious art form. It's the trajectory theater, opera, cinema, and TV all took. They started out as entertainment for the masses, and all the time while remaining just that, also became something bigger than all that.

 

Planescape: Torment remains for me the shining beacon that shows that this can be possible. It wasn't quite there yet, perhaps, but it opened the gate and showed the way.

 

The sad thing is that nobody else yet has managed to walk through that door to what must lie beyond. And as much as I anticipated T:ToN, I'm not sure that a "spiritual successor" is the way to do that. It'll need another unlikely confluence of the right people coming together at the right time, with the means to do what needs doing.

</snobmode>

 

I have to say that games are generally held up to a much higher standard for what is considered "art" then movies are. I can't remember the last time I saw a movie I would consider art.. maybe Shawshenk Redemption? I dunno.. probably there were some I missed or forgot but most of the stuff out of hollywood these days is what we in the game industry call shovelware and they totally get away with it too.

 

I think it's good that games are held to that standard but you guys are gonna be waiting a long time if you expect to see a classic appear in a video game on the same level as some of our most recognizable literature and symphonies.

 

 

 

The bugs, UI issues and unfinished combat system aren't bugging me. That can all be fixed/improved.

 

I simply don't think that the design (mechanics and systems) of the game is very good.

 

PrimeJunta you may be right about those dopamine pathways but it changes nothing.. I still want kill -xp (so does Helm :lol:).. I want to be rewarded for overcoming challenging fights in a predictable (as you stated and I agree) manner. I don't think getting xp for combat is a "boring" xp reward.. I think it's an interesting xp reward.. unless you mean picking off villagers in Beregost.. but even that can be interesting when the Flaming Fists shows up.

 

 

In a reply to my wondering whether we'll get to have a more old-school, combat xp, in the game too (or even if modders like me can help them add one before it ships, Sking says:

"Once the game releases any mod you feel is necessary to heighten your experience, you should definitely do."

What this means, folks, is that OE isn't budging. We will have quest-xp only (their version of "objective xp"), so there's nothing to see here. Scram! Go home!

 

Thats not what that means.. it means he doesn't want to give a direct answer because it's probably not his call and you could use the quote against him if it was later changed. All he said was what has already been said. When the game comes out you are free to mod it as you wish.

 

He is basically saying, no you can't mod the game before it is released.. and I am ignoring the other part of your question about xp.

 

That doesn't mean they are debating or even thinking of changing anything.. but your interpreting beyond what was said in that message.

Edited by Immortalis

From George Ziets @ http://new.spring.me/#!/user/GZiets/timeline/responses

Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat. While this does put more emphasis on solving quests, the lack of rewards for killing creatures makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game) as much as I can.

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I have to say that games are generally held up to a much higher standard for what is considered "art" then movies are. I can't remember the last time I saw a movie I would consider art.. maybe Shawshenk Redemption? I dunno.. probably there were some I missed or forgot but most of the stuff out of hollywood these days is what we in the game industry call shovelware and they totally get away with it too.

Hollywood hasn't made movies that would qualify as art in thirty years or so, allowing for the very odd exception. They used to but it somehow faded away by the early 1980's at the latest.

 

The latest movies that touched me at more than a European level weren't European or American at all. This one, for example.

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I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com

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The bugs, UI issues and unfinished combat system aren't bugging me. That can all be fixed/improved.

 

I simply don't think that the design (mechanics and systems) of the game is very good.

Yeah, I understood that <_< I said that I don't mind you not liking them even though I like them.

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In a reply to my wondering whether we'll get to have a more old-school, combat xp, in the game too (or even if modders like me can help them add one before it ships, Sking says:

"Once the game releases any mod you feel is necessary to heighten your experience, you should definitely do."

What this means, folks, is that OE isn't budging. We will have quest-xp only (their version of "objective xp"), so there's nothing to see here. Scram! Go home!

 

Thats not what that means.. it means he doesn't want to give a direct answer because it's probably not his call and you could use the quote against him if it was later changed. All he said was what has already been said. When the game comes out you are free to mod it as you wish.

 

He is basically saying, no you can't mod the game before it is released.. and I am ignoring the other part of your question about xp.

 

That doesn't mean they are debating or even thinking of changing anything.. but your interpreting beyond what was said in that message.

 

That sounds a bit more hopeful. I would be hard-pressed to interpret it as there's still hope for combat xp, lock xp, trap xp, and that kind of fine-grained xp system, but you could be right that they are certainly discussing ways to do objectives in much finer increments, for instance! :)

*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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In a reply to my wondering whether we'll get to have a more old-school, combat xp, in the game too (or even if modders like me can help them add one before it ships, Sking says:

"Once the game releases any mod you feel is necessary to heighten your experience, you should definitely do."

What this means, folks, is that OE isn't budging. We will have quest-xp only (their version of "objective xp"), so there's nothing to see here. Scram! Go home!

 

Thats not what that means.. it means he doesn't want to give a direct answer because it's probably not his call and you could use the quote against him if it was later changed. All he said was what has already been said. When the game comes out you are free to mod it as you wish.

 

He is basically saying, no you can't mod the game before it is released.. and I am ignoring the other part of your question about xp.

 

That doesn't mean they are debating or even thinking of changing anything.. but your interpreting beyond what was said in that message.

 

That sounds a bit more hopeful. I would be hard-pressed to interpret it as there's still hope for combat xp, lock xp, trap xp, and that kind of fine-grained xp system, but you could be right that they are certainly discussing ways to do objectives in much finer increments, for instance! :)

 

Yea I didn't mean to give you hope that it's gonna change.. I just think it's dangerous to assume things or add meaning to things where there isn't any.

Until Josh or Fergus comes into this thread and says "We Hear you and will be examining other options for our XP System" I wouldn't get too excited..

From George Ziets @ http://new.spring.me/#!/user/GZiets/timeline/responses

Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat. While this does put more emphasis on solving quests, the lack of rewards for killing creatures makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game) as much as I can.

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Hilarious (and alarmingly naïve) to think that Obsidian's decision to scrap kill XP had anything to do with trying to enrich the roleplaying experience. It did NOT.

Ah yes!  Josh's nefarious plan to screw over backers!  Muhahahahahahahaha!

 

Oh wait, it's not malice, it's laziness, right?  Because they can't be bothered to figure out how to do incremental XP ... not like incremental XP has been in every single game they've ever made or anything.

 

Anyway, there's no good reason for them to do this!  They're just lazy and/or evil!  Good job, internet detective!  You cracked the case!

Detective.jpg

Thank goodness!

Edited by Zombra
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^well that's... a pretty darn well-written argument, Junta. You have earned another 'Like" from me. :p

 

Also, I'm suddenly conflicted on whether I should start a new PS:T playthough or throw the CDs in the trash. Of course, PS:T, whether it's a good example of anything or not, is almost always the bizzaro exception to every rule. On paper, it's the worst RPG ever made.

 

1) No Gender or race choices. A fixed protagonist, with only 3 class options (like Dragon age! But worse)

2) you can't wear armor

3) you can't use missile weapons of any type (in fact, no one can, save for 2 NPCs)

4) the weapons and spell choices you do have are ridiculously limited

5) Combat is horrendously, hideously, unthinkably, terrible

6) It's an exceedingly ugly game

7) It's filled to capacity with fetch quests

8.) the Modron cube <ugh>

9) The goal is to die.

10) The loot is silly

11) It's party based, yet aside from a couple of exceptions, you cannot equip your companions with anything, or choose their weapons, or customize them in any way

12) Nothing is tactical, nothing is strategic,

13) you can't die, and you can resurrect your party members 3 times a day if they die, but they never will because:

14) Healing charms are stackable to 99, and you can pause the game and consume as many as you wish. The effects are instant. Thus insuring immortality of your party members.

15) The Pacing is the worst of any game I've ever played.

16) It rewards unpredictablilty, as you just mentioned + the grinding (although that's purely optional, since even leveling is not of significant importance in the game)

 

 

Yet, somehow, PS:T manages to be the greatest RPG ever made. Art is intangible, I suppose.

 

Why don't you make such a list of all the things you dislike in the beta of PoE so far (bugs aside)

and admit that somehow it still may be able to manage to be one of the greatest RPG ever made too? ;)

Edited by Fluffle
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"Loyal Servant of His Most Fluffyness, Lord Kerfluffleupogus, Devourer of the Faithful!"

 

ringoffireresistance.gif *wearing the Ring of Fire Resistance* (gift from JFSOCC)

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Why don't you make such a list of all the things you dislike in the beta of PoE so far (bugs aside)

and admit that somehow it still may be able to manage to be one of the greatest RPG ever made too? ;)

You mean speculate?

 

 

Oh wait, it's not malice, it's laziness, right? Because they can't be bothered to figure out how to do incremental XP ... not like incremental XP has been in every single game they've ever made or anything.

It's neither. It's resources. They had more than $4M to work with for their other games. Edited by Stun
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It's neither. It's resources. They had more than $4M to work with for their other games.

So 2 years ago, they decided to half-ass the central reward system for the game for the sole reason that they didn't want to spend money or time on it.  In the meantime, new systems have been added and others cut, but all the while they've stood firm that the XP system must remain fundamentally and objectively bad.  No one on the development team actually believes that there are advantages to this system, despite the many arguments in place showing that many of the players do.  Got it.   :no:

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So 2 years ago, they decided to half-ass the central reward system for the game for the sole reason that they didn't want to spend money or time on it. In the meantime, new systems have been added and others cut, but all the while they've stood firm that the XP system must remain fundamentally and objectively bad.

Bad? It's only bad if you're one of the rejecters of the system. Do YOU see it as bad?

 

 

No one on the development team actually believes that there are advantages to this system, despite the many arguments in place showing that many of the players do.  Got it.   :no:

Straw man. I just listed one of the advantages to the system, and like any drama queen, you saw it and went into a hissy fit. Edited by Stun
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Bad? It's only bad if you're one of the rejecters of the system. Do YOU see it as bad? 

No one on the development team actually believes that there are advantages to this system, despite the many arguments in place showing that many of the players do.  Got it.   :no:

Straw man. I just listed one of the advantages to the system, and like any drama queen, you saw it and went into a hissy fit.

No, I think it's a fantastic system and a great idea.  I must have misunderstood.  I thought you were saying that they used this system solely to save dev resources, not because it actually has merit.

 

EDIT: Wait, this is what you said:

Hilarious (and alarmingly naïve) to think that Obsidian's decision to scrap kill XP had anything to do with trying to enrich the roleplaying experience. It did NOT.

Soooooo ... let's start over.  Why did they go with this system?  Please list all the reasons, since you're the expert.

Edited by Zombra
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I like the quest-only XP system. If I want to pursue a no-kill solution to a quest -- sneaking in to release the captives instead of killing all the guards for example -- I don't want to be penalized for it.

 

And I don't want to have to meta-game for points, for example by learning lockpick just so I can level up faster by picking every lock I see.

 

However, optional encounters should be implemented as minor quests. You shouldn't end up with no XP after a full-scale combat.

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DID YOU KNOW: *Missing String*

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I like the quest-only XP system. If I want to pursue a no-kill solution to a quest -- sneaking in to release the captives instead of killing all the guards for example -- I don't want to be penalized for it.

 

And I don't want to have to meta-game for points, for example by learning lockpick just so I can level up faster by picking every lock I see.

 

However, optional encounters should be implemented as minor quests. You shouldn't end up with no XP after a full-scale combat.

 

I can get behind this.. I don't actually care if we get kill -xp in quests or not.. as long as there is the payoff after an encounter or milestone.

 

My issue with lack of kill -xp is for when your not on a quest.. or your getting to a quest and now suddenly your achievements don't mean ****.

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From George Ziets @ http://new.spring.me/#!/user/GZiets/timeline/responses

Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat. While this does put more emphasis on solving quests, the lack of rewards for killing creatures makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game) as much as I can.

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Soooooo ... let's start over.  Why did they go with this system?  Please list all the reasons, since you're the expert.

Saving dev resources is a multi-faceted merit. Aside from simply saving money and time and facilitating balance (they only have 4 million to work with) it also means they can spend those saved resources on enriching the game's other features.

 

As for other merits, I don't recall claiming there were several reasons why they scrapped kill XP. That's your drama-queen mind's conclusion jumping.

Edited by Stun
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Saving dev resources is a multi-faceted merit. Aside from simply saving money and time and facilitating balance (they only have 4 million to work with) it also means they can spend those saved resources on enriching the game's other features.

I understand what resource management means, thanks.  (I'm an RPG player for chrissake.)

 

As for other merits, I don't recall claiming there were several reasons why they scrapped kill XP. That's your drama-queen mind's conclusion jumping.

Make up your mind.  Did they deliberately make a subpar system just to save resources or not?  Do they truly see no merit in the system for gameplay and RP?

Edited by Zombra
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Saving dev resources is a multi-faceted merit. Aside from simply saving money and time and facilitating balance (they only have 4 million to work with) it also means they can spend those saved resources on enriching the game's other features.

I understand what resource management means, thanks.  (I'm an RPG player for chrissake.)

 

As for other merits, I don't recall claiming there were several reasons why they scrapped kill XP. That's your drama-queen mind's conclusion jumping.

Make up your mind.  Did they deliberately make a subpar system just to save resources or not?  Do they truly see no merit in the system for gameplay and RP?

 

 

Why are we both liking the same post by RedSocialKnight? that would leave me to believe we agree on a common system? What are you against exactly from my previous post?

From George Ziets @ http://new.spring.me/#!/user/GZiets/timeline/responses

Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat. While this does put more emphasis on solving quests, the lack of rewards for killing creatures makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game) as much as I can.

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@Immortalis

 

Why are you liking that post indeed, where RedSocialKnight says he likes the quest-only XP System and then you

like the post after that where Valeris claims that based on the poll this very system has been rejected by the fanbase?

 

So do you like the quest-only XP System or do you not like it?

"Loyal Servant of His Most Fluffyness, Lord Kerfluffleupogus, Devourer of the Faithful!"

 

ringoffireresistance.gif *wearing the Ring of Fire Resistance* (gift from JFSOCC)

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