No experience from combat

[SubZoey]

I feel that there are other ways to reward the player some experience for not fighting. Maybe tie it to the stronghold or something similar. For instance, If you talked your way out of a situation you might get something like " followers at your stronghold heard word of your deeds and their moral boost rewards you ##xp". Whatever the same xp is you would get for all the creatures you would have fought. If you end up changing your mind then have their moral backtrack or something.

 

Maybe if you could pick to have good, evil, or neutral followers and get rewarded for playing as such. Neutral could be like playing the regular IE games.

[Volourn]

"I feel that there are other ways to reward the player some experience for not fighting. Maybe tie it to the stronghold or something similar. For instance, If you talked your way out of a situation you might get something like " followers at your stronghold heard word of your deeds and their moral boost rewards you ##xp". Whatever the same xp is you would get for all the creatures you would have fought. If you end up changing your mind then have their moral backtrack or something."

 

 

There ya go. Of course, in most encounters, you can't talk your way out of it. It's not an option.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Volourn

[fruiteater]

 

So i actually didnt thin this would be such a hot topic, but after reading through this thread (and some of the other threads) i have to ask: is the sole purpose of playing an RPG the accumulation of experince points? because the more that i read this less i see interesting disscussion of pro´s and con´s of both systems and more "if i dont get xp for it, it invalidates me doing it so i should not even bother with it". I dont really get it.

It's not that it invalidates doing things - I'll happily go through mobs and explore areas with no-xp ... for a while.  But if it gets to the stage where you're playing for 5 hours and actually accomplishing things and still receiving zero-xp since you didn't ask permission from a villager first ... then it becomes a problem with the progression system.

Obs said the demo would be 3-6 hours with the ability to go from level 5-8 (with exaggerated xp-rewards to test the level-up stuff) - but it sounds like you have to play in a certain way to get that - against the stated design goal.

 

"- go kill the ogre and see."

 

I did. No xp.

Really?  I was sure that Adam got it in the 2nd gamescon vid without talking to the farmer first - was it the same ogre?  (Just checking that this mightn't all be an xp-bug)

 

 

While i agree that going through/exploring a map without xp is pretty bad, especially if it locks out quests, I think the best way to approach that peticular problem is to have quest able to be completed without the permission of a villagre. As an example, if you kill the ogre before talking to the farmer, you still get xp for him or mayby even an item as proff of killing him. 

[redneckdevil]

Im loving the no combat exp. From someone who has played rpgs video games all the way back to dragon warrior first coming out, u learn in every video game rpg to grind. U did it in dragon warrior, u did it in ff, chrono trigger, elder scrolls games, and now that i started playing in the isometric crpgs im doing the same. Im not venturing out to explore, no im venturing out to see what i can slay and anything i find is a byproduct of it.

u grinded because it would make the game easier and also because the games would put in very difficult enemies that u had to grind to get past them.

ill take baldurs gate for example. I know where im supposed to go but im going all over the map so i can slay whatever i find because the exp system im useless until i get higher levels as a caster so for me to be operational and not clicking my guybrunning away most fights while npc party members have all the fun, im grinding to lvl up.

 

Now this game isnt enforcing and pushing murderhoboing mentality on me, its making murderhoboing a life choice, not a demand. Now im in the middle of a quest and im weighing decisions on where to go. I dont wanna go down a wrong corridor or a dead end so im playing smarter. I used to explore everything because i be missing out on exp to level up, now that it isnt an option im being smart.

Combat is fun and it seems more dire now because im having to play smarter. Im not just running into everything swing a sword, no now im seeing someone and weighing my options should this be a good idea to engage or a better idea for disengagement. I find myself pondering so much that ive notice patroling on some.

now i dont feel the need to grind because i know if i do the quests ill be in the spot where i can take on the bbeg but not cakewalk over it AND if i want some challenge i can bypass quests and have it be more challenging...maybe.

 

BUT i will end with this. Combat has taken a new look for me. Its no longer about the grind fest that ive grown accustomed to for 30 years (which surprisingly has been a relief, like a weigh ifted from mu shoulders) and has made me ponder if i should or shouldnt.

 

Also exploration has been surprisingly much more enteryaining because now i am exploring for the pure sake of curiosity itself and nothing more and im enjoying the non exp rewards for exploring, like the view of something or the satisfaction of knowing whats over yonder.

 

Keep it the way it is please. Be brave, uve done somthing different and stick with it Obsidian.

[Shevek]

Combat focus does not mean dungeon crawler. Dungeon crawler means a very restricted world to move through, generally linear in progression, often with a combat focus. Pillars of Eternity does not qualify as a dungeon crawler.

 

I disagree with your definition. It is too narrow.

 

This is a dungeon crawler. One of the big draws is a "mega dungeon." Most of its innovations over the ie games relate to combat.  We can split hairs all night but it makes no difference. This is a dungeon hack. A dungeon hack with dialogue, story and npc interaction, perhaps, but a dungeon hack all the same. Hell, Sawyer himself is gleefully proud of the amount of "murder" (his own words, stated in assorted vids) that the player can take part in.

 

If you make a game about running around and murdering monsters, you should reward xp to the player for murdering said monsters. If you murder more efficiently than others, then you should be able to farm xp if you so desire. Still, I honestly do not care that much. My party will still murder "no-xp" monsters albeit a bit less happily.

[Volourn]

"Be brave, uve done somthing different and stick with it Obsidian."

 

It's not different. It's been done before. It's been done better. SRR handles xp better than Obsidian. Even BL did. This system (thus far) is EPIC FAIL.

 

 

"From someone who has played rpgs video games all the way back to dragon warrior first coming out,"

 

Not impressed.

 

 

"weighing my options should this be a good idea to engage or a better idea for disengagement."

 

Except majority of combat is forced on you (barring sneaking with whole party) since most enemies are insta hostile. There is no option.

 

 

XP is about rewarding the player. PE doesn't reward the player for exploring, combat, role-playing, C&C in proper and meaningful ways. SSR, BG, and BL do.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Volourn

[Silent Winter]

While i agree that going through/exploring a map without xp is pretty bad, especially if it locks out quests, I think the best way to approach that peticular problem is to have quest able to be completed without the permission of a villagre. As an example, if you kill the ogre before talking to the farmer, you still get xp for him or mayby even an item as proff of killing him. 

 

I agree that the xp should be rewarded, regardless of whether you're on a quest, and I thought that's how it worked.

It seems odd, though, that Indiralightfoot could play through 5 hours and get zero-xp.  Hence the current change of opinion from 'hey, objective-xp could be really good' to 'Oh, you really just meant quest-xp, that's not so good).

[Volourn]

indira probably got hit with the vanishing quest bug in obsidian's defense there.

[redneckdevil]

"Be brave, uve done somthing different and stick with it Obsidian."

 

It's not different. It's been done before. It's been done better. SRR handles xp better than Obsidian. Even BL did. This system (thus far) is EPIC FAIL.

 

Totally ur opionion

 

 

"From someone who has played rpgs video games all the way back to dragon warrior first coming out,"

 

Not impressed.

 

Dont care, im not in a pissing match and couldnt care less if ur impressed or not.

 

 

"weighing my options should this be a good idea to engage or a better idea for disengagement."

 

Except majority of combat is forced on you (barring sneaking with whole party) since most enemies are insta hostile. There is no option.

 

Actually no, ive bypassed quite a few combat scenarios so far by sneaking. Maybe ur not doing it right?

 

 

XP is about rewarding the player. PE doesn't reward the player for exploring, combat, role-playing, C&C in proper and meaningful ways. SSR, BG, and BL do.

If ur only reward for exploring is a numeric advance in level...and not the actual curiosity of wanting to know and rewarded with that knowledge but instead want "gained such and such exp" everytime u trip over a rock..eh. my and urs views are different and thats ok. Different strokes for different folks. I gave what i felt and thought and did not be an condensing assprick about it either, i liked it. U are more than obliged to disagree, but keep ur ****ty remarks to urself and realize that people have different points of views that URS doesnt have to be the right one )

 

Have fun, im going back into beta now and so far enjoying the ever **** out of it )

[Stun]

Be brave, uve done somthing different and stick with it Obsidian.

It's not different. It's what first person shooters and other NON-RPGs have been doing since their inception.

 

If ur only reward for exploring is a numeric advance in level...and not the actual curiosity of wanting to know and rewarded with that knowledge ...

Because heaven forbid a game that dares to give us both.

 

What's with you guys and your "either/or" mentality?

[IndiraLightfoot]

indira probably got hit with the vanishing quest bug in obsidian's defense there.

Heh! It could be. I'll try a new run laterz, perhaps everything will be different then, but I sure made all the choices I wanted, and moved my part where I wanted them to go, and yeah, it was pretty fun exploring and all. It just came as a pretty big surprise that none of my entirely normal RPG-deeds during those hours was rewarded with any xp whatsoever - and only with very scarce loot (which I prefer, but that's another discussion). I also prefer pretty slow levelling via xp in CRPGs of this kind, but I didn't expect an all-time-slowpoke. 

Edited August 20, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[sparklecat]

 

I'm saying that you basically told that guy to go play other games if he doesn't like your view of what PoE is. The funny thing is that you're the one getting the short end of the stick, so you can take your own advice.

 

No, the person I was talking to equated per kill xp with Diablo, then proceeded to tell OP that this is not a game for him if he is primarily interested in combat. I then showed that person that he is wrong, and told him the same thing he said to op.

 

Did you understand now, or do you need more help? Feel free to ask.

 

 

No, buddy.  I equated "I don't want to do quests, I just want to kill things and get progressively stronger" with Diablo.  If someone is not interested in quests, they are not going to enjoy the majority of this game.  Combat heavy or no.

[Volourn]

"If ur only reward for exploring is a numeric advance in level...and not the actual curiosity of wanting to know and rewarded with that knowledge ..."

 

ONLY!?! ONLY!?! ONLY!?!

 

Being pro xp  for overcoming challenge doesn't mean one wants that to be the only reward I want for it. Don't make stuff up.

[archangel979]

 

Stun, LARP stands for Live Action Role Playing. That's people who play a roleplaying game in person. It has absolutely no relevance to the discussion here, so just stop abusing terms you don't even understand.

In cRPG larping is pointless stuff you do for RP purposes that the game mechanics don't recognize. Like making sure your character eats 3 meals a day when you're playing skyrim. or dropping gold and weapons in front of a Talos shrine.

 

It's meaningless "pretend" crap.

 

Well they misused it. Stop using so you don't spread this disease. 

Edited August 20, 2014 by archangel979

[sparklecat]

 

Stun, LARP stands for Live Action Role Playing. That's people who play a roleplaying game in person. It has absolutely no relevance to the discussion here, so just stop abusing terms you don't even understand.

In cRPG larping is pointless stuff you do for RP purposes that the game mechanics don't recognize. Like making sure your character eats 3 meals a day when you're playing skyrim. or dropping gold and weapons in front of a Talos shrine.

 

It's meaningless "pretend" crap.

 

Also, God forbid someone play a roleplaying game because they enjoy roleplaying.

Edited August 20, 2014 by sparklecat

[Sarex]

Also, God forbid someone play a roleplaying game because they enjoy roleplaying.

 

Kill xp doesn't stop you from doing that, it never did.

[Sammael]

I'm ambivalent on this issue. Good combat can be a reward in and by itself. However, I certainly wouldn't mind getting combat XP (as long as it's not the only way to get XP, and as long as it's not the best way to get XP). I don't feel that not having combat XP reduces the fun of exploration, either, since there should be enough non-XP awards (items, story, cool things to see) that XP is not necessary. 

[sparklecat]

 

Also, God forbid someone play a roleplaying game because they enjoy roleplaying.

 

Kill xp doesn't stop you from doing that, it never did.

 

I am not saying it does.  I'm taking issue with Stun dismissing what other people enjoy doing in their games as "meaningless pretend crap" when that's the entire point of roleplaying games, computer or otherwise, as a genre!

[Kratok]

Personally I don't have anything against not gaining XP from combat as a concept, but the rest of the gameplay and the area design in the current version of the backer beta does not support the system. I think it needs to be either done considerably better or dropped.

 

Yesterday I played the game for around 5 hours, exploring all of the town and finished the task regarding the two groups of people, clearing the bandits and climbing after the egg, killing the ogre, exploring the area to the west and most of the dungeon below it... and ended up with a whopping +0 XP for my party. Now granted, some of it was due to my journal reseting towards the end, but that happened only slightly before the ogre cave which was the last thing I did.

 

I think there are currently too far many unavoidable enemies for a system like this. The HP and resting system are also fairly brutal, more so than in most other RPGs at least, also discouraging combat. I felt like the systems together made combat not just feel unrewarding, but a punishment to the players; a feeling I'd rather not have in an RPG filled with monsters and dungeons. Note that I was playing on Hard difficulty, following the tooltip that said it was a good difficulty for veterans of Infinity Engine games (I didn't find it to be that difficult, but also not rewarding).

 

If they are to stick with the non-combat XP system, I think they also need to add many diferent sources of XP. Currently it feels like you have to do those few particular things that happen to give XP as soon as possible, then ignore the rest as well as you can. Other potential, more minor sources of XP could be exploration (a big one, simply visiting interesting places), reading books/unlocking new lore and simply talking to NPCs and gaining information that way. It would also be nice if the quests gave smaller amounts of XP more frequently, instead of just once or twice. Additionally combat should be made more rewarding or at least less punishing somehow, perhaps by adding more interesting loot, crafting components don't quite cut it in my opinion.

 

Note that even though this post may sound negative, I love what I'm seeing so far. Shows a lot of potential. But besides item/journal/spellcasting ability disappearing bugs, in my experience the XP system is what needs rehauling the most currently.

[Stun]

I am not saying it does. I'm taking issue with Stun dismissing what other people enjoy doing in their games as "meaningless pretend crap" when that's the entire point of roleplaying games, computer or otherwise, as a genre!

Oh for crying out loud. If that's not the pot calling the kettle black, I don't know what is. In my 2 years on this forum I've seen more than a dozen gigantic XP threads. But there hasn't been a single one of them that wasn't filled to capacity with people from your side who based their entire argument around making sure the world realizes that killing things for XP is both the antithesis of Fun and a hindrance to role playing.. Edited August 20, 2014 by Stun

[Msxyz]

There is a poll, in the Gameplay & mechanics forum, that clearly shows only a small minority of the people (9%) is satisfied by how XP is now rewarded.

 

One of the reasons to hold a more or less open beta is to receive feedback about mechanics. I would be surprised -and disappointed- if Obsidian doesn't reconsider the way XP is handled.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Msxyz

[sparklecat]

 

Oh for crying out loud. If that's not the pot calling the kettle black, I don't know what is. In my 2 years on this forum I've seen more than a dozen gigantic XP threads. But there hasn't been a single one of them that wasn't filled to capacity with people from you side who based their entire argument around making sure the world realizes that killing things for XP is the antithesis of Fun.

 

Well, "pot calling the kettle black" generally requires the person you're criticising to actually have expressed hypocritical views, rather than simply people who hold some of the same opinions as them doing so.  Please don't attribute views to me that I don't even hold, hmm?  I've got nothing against killing things for XP, and enjoy dungeon crawlers as well as RPGs.  I simply don't think that receiving XP for kills is necessary for the game or its combat to be enjoyable or worth doing.

[Stun]

Well, "pot calling the kettle black" generally requires the person you're criticising to actually have expressed hypocritical views, rather than simply people who hold some of the same opinions as them doing so.

Well, I didn't want to make it that personal by calling you out specifically, but since you asked so nicely...

 

OK, yes, I'm referring to you, specifically.

 

 

It pigeon holes players into playing one specific way. What if players don't want to do many quests? The only way to play if you want to get anywhere is by questing now. There's no just going out and adventuring around killing things as a form of progression.

Well, no. This isn't Diablo. If you don't want to do quests, this is probably not the right game for you.

 

lets see... what can we make out of a silly response like this? Oh yes, I know. How about we point out the judgmental hypocrisy in it.

 

First, both Diablo and PoE are RPGs. Second, both Diablo and PoE have quests. Third, they're both RPGs that place heavy focus on combat. Forth, it stands to reason that if one is an RPG fan who enjoys engaging in combat when playing RPGs, then there's a really good chance he might enjoy both games. It's only the latter's lack combat XP that might cause him to not enjoy the experience. Or perhaps to enjoy it less.

 

You are assuming that if one does not desire to do quests, then one will not find PoE fun...? But It's not up to you to decide which aspects of PoE are going to be the most fun for someone else, or even the most important or relevant. Like I said... Pot. kettle. Black.

 

 

PS: I can say one thing after playing the beta. It *SO* wasn't about its quests.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Stun

[Sarex]

No, no Stun, you see he was trying to helpful there, it wasn't meant to be a snarky reply. /s

[sparklecat]

Sorry, I don't debate with people who start making it personal, Stun.  I'm done here.