The state of Feminism, the good the bad

[Malcador]

So this is an interesting perspective, IMO as the definitions explain feminism is the advocacy of womens right because at the moment there isn't equality between the sexes. So you are right in that sense feminism isn't about mens rights. But  do you think men need  campaigns or societal  attention  to ensure this , are we discriminated against in the workplace and in society just because we are men?

 

Maybe you can give some examples where you personally have been  discriminated against because you are a man?  I'm  not saying you are wrong, its just never happened to me so I can't identify with it

You do know people need 'advocacy' (great now I sound like a Humanities major) without being discriminated against ?

 

Frankly, one wonders listening to some feminists if equality is the actual goal, rather than advantage - easiest example is the view on the draft for some. Usual things about the slippery fish that is ideology.

[BruceVC]

 

So this is an interesting perspective, IMO as the definitions explain feminism is the advocacy of womens right because at the moment there isn't equality between the sexes. So you are right in that sense feminism isn't about mens rights. But  do you think men need  campaigns or societal  attention  to ensure this , are we discriminated against in the workplace and in society just because we are men?

 

Maybe you can give some examples where you personally have been  discriminated against because you are a man?  I'm  not saying you are wrong, its just never happened to me so I can't identify with it

You do know people need 'advocacy' (great now I sound like a Humanities major) without being discriminated against ?

 

Frankly, one wonders listening to some feminists if equality is the actual goal, rather than advantage - easiest example is the view on the draft for some. Usual things about the slippery fish that is ideology.

 

 

Can you give some examples when you say " You do know people need advocacy  without being discriminated against ", I just want to be clear on what you mean?

 

[BruceVC]

I would say that at this point the word feminism is hurting the cause of women more than aiding it. You can argue about the why of it, but the word feminism has aquired a certain stigma that is hard to get rid of. 

 

Let's put it this way, if I was championing a cause for women, say wage equality, I wouldn't call myself a feminist. I would probably get done more that way.

 

This could be something that feminists should consider, maybe the word has a bad perception about it? But that's one of the reasons for this thread, my ideal objective would be for someone like you to come to your own conclusion that feminism is a good thing despite what you may have thought

Edited August 13, 2014 by BruceVC

[Malcador]

Well, I can, maybe you can also give some basis for carrying on about 'men's rights' that I never mentioned. People with illnesses, they need assistance in things other than fighting discrimination against them.

[NWN_babaYaga]

The state of feminism in the islamic world is at zero and so it will stay! This is not anything against any religion but the truth is that religions (not spirituality) is a burden or the enemy of woman. I dont even understand how a woman can accept a male god that suggests to make herself a slave or worse... that is my oppinion. And you should realize that we have an islamic revolution worldwide that will make your fight even worse in the future!

 

So i hope that you army of feminists realize your real enemy and dont try to kill of healthy familys and man who are loving fathers but disagree with you at times because thats alot what happens. You take a person out who is open hearted and then you celebrate your "victory" once the poor guy lost his child to a woman... his ex-wife who in reality is just a selfish psycho. Take it serious and fight the religions that have killed and tortured you for centurys but stop being ignorant about good fathers.

Edited August 13, 2014 by NWN_babaYaga

[Sarex]

This is an honest response and I appreciate it, when you talk about feminists asking for rights what in your opinion would these rights be that they want that are negated by the fact they already have privileges. And of course this will differ from country to country. So let me give you an example, there is a huge movement to get more women CEO in the Fortune 500 companies in the USA, but based on what you are saying would you feel feminists shouldn't be pushing for this because a counter argument to this could be " there is no need to get women into top positions in Fortune 500 companies because there are already many women CEO in normal companies"

 

Also what is your definition of normal feminists and hardcore feminists?

 

The fortune 500 companies are beholden to money, not gender. If a women candidate was considered as a better candidate for making said money she would be chosen. The problem is that those fortune 500 companies are risk aversive (that's how they stay in the 500) so not many of them are willing to take a chance in changing the formula.

 

I don't know what rights are the most popular right now for women, but here are some privileges that they enjoyed for a long time. Women are not required to go to war in times of conscription, they have a priority in custody cases, they get to chose if they want babies or not (after the conception), no pressure is put on them to provide for the family(in a normal family), not to mention the unhealthy divorce practices around the world.

 

Hard core feminist are, anti-male women who thing that the feminine gender is superior and should be treated as such.

[HoonDing]

Hi All

 

I think its time we had this important discussion. As most of you know I consider myself  a committed feminist. I have noticed there is loads of misinformation around what Feminism is and isn't. In another thread Volo said to me  (please note I am not attacking Volo, I am using his post to highlight the misunderstanding people have around feminism) My comments are in Red and obviously Volo responded

 

No its not, feminism is an important way to ensure gender equality."

 

Quite the opposite. It demeans men, it paints all men as pigs who only exist to rape women. It claims that  the world would be better off if men had no power and only women wer ein charge.Feminism is evil to the core. If you believe in feminism you don't believe in equallity - only the fake kind where men are the lesser of the two genders.I believe in TRUE equality. Feminists do not. It's right in the name. Feminism = females are superior gender.

 

"Please don't display your ignorance Volo"

 

Look in a mirror. Believing that 'feminism' = equality is the definition of ignorance.I'll create masculinism and claim it's about equality.  L0L

 

 

So the first thing we need to understand is "what is feminism and what is a feminist "?

 

A feminist is someone who believes in feminism, so what is feminism?

All feminism means is the belief that the genders are equal and need to be treated equally and have equal opportunities in society

 

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/feminism

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/feminism

 

So what does this mean in relative terms? I can give many examples but some are 

• women should be able to vote,
• it means that if a women is doing the same job as a man she should get paid the same amount of money
• there are very few  things as "its only a job a man can do "
• if a women is suitably qualified to get a job she should have the same chances to get that job as a man
• A womens role in a relationship or marriage is not assumed to be one where she has to sit at home and look after the kids and get the dinner ready
• Equal and effective education

 

 

 

Feminism does not mean

 

• All men are scum and rapist pigs
• I cant comment on an attractive women
• Women are automatically better than men
• Its about inequality around the sexes
• As man if I say  I am feminist I now hate my own gender
• We need to feel constantly guilty or the cause of feminism is about some guilt trip

 

Now you may say "No Bruce, feminism is not what you say it is ", then I want  to hear what you think feminism is. Also there are times we cant enforce gender equality because women would be  at a disadvantage because of the physical difference. For example you can't expect the women and mens rugby team to play full contact rugby against each other. Also I believe some jobs you can't compromise on the requirements just so women will join, for example the Navy Seals have a strict criteria to a qualify for. This criteria needs to be same for men and women

 

 

Some of you have the wrong idea of feminism because you think that people like Anita Saarkesian represent all feminist ideals. But she has her own agenda and I don't necessarily agree with everything she says . I am not saying her attempts to raise genuine issues around the objectification of women in games are wrong. But  I don't think everything she does is helpful to the greater cause of gender equality

 

So in summary feminism is an important belief because its about the equality of the sexes. I don't understand how any man can not want to live in a world where your mother, daughter, sister, girlfriend, wife or any other women you know is treated equally

 

I look forward to your responses

[BruceVC]

The state of feminism in the islamic world is at zero and so it will stay! This is not anything against any religion but the truth is that religions (not spirituality) is a burden or the enemy of woman. I dont even understand how a woman can accept a male god that suggests to make herself a slave or worse... that is my oppinion. And you should realize that we have an islamic revolution worldwide that will make your fight even worse in the future!

 

So i hope that you army of feminists realize your real enemy and dont try to kill of healthy familys and man who are loving fathers but disagree with you at times because thats alot what happens. You take a person out who is open hearted and then you celebrate your "victory" once the poor guy lost his child to a woman... his ex-wife who in reality is just a selfish psycho. Take it serious and fight the religions that have killed and tortured you for centurys but stop being ignorant about good fathers.

 

I agree, most countries in the Muslim world have serious work to achieve gender equality, I use to travel to the Middle East regularly for work. The degree of discrimination varies from country to country, for example in Saudi Arabia women can't drive or work and all women have to wear a burka. But in the UAE women  can work and drive and the burka isn't mandatory. Its also important to recognise that many Muslim countries are making progress around women's rights but there is still work to do  

[Volourn]

"But  do you think men need  campaigns or societal  attention  to ensure this , are we discriminated against in the workplace and in society just because we are men?"
 

Actually, men ARE discriminated against in the work place.

 

Anyways, feminism is sexist by **** very nature.

 

I believe in TRUE equality those who believe in feminism or masculinism do not.

 

\Dictionary definitions are irrelevant. Real world applications are what matter.

[NWN_babaYaga]

@BruceVC

 

As a man i must say that i´m glad not being a woman in those countrys. I dont meant things like driving a car.. but more being used as a modern slave. The most bad things we dont hear in the news but are very common... Woman are lesser beings there. It´s in their tradition. Even fundamental christians are inspired by the thought of bad eve good adam and that nonsense. So i realy can understand woman who are attracted to old "banned" theories of what is and what not... nature related ... Woman who are inspired by witches from old are the coolest i know. IS a bit OT but i think that it is a good movement also that you find once again what was for you and was taken away from the clerics. I´m sure it helps woman who feel a bit "helpless" to start digging into ancient cultures and myth where you were accepted as you are and not as some thing.

 

And feminism should inspire woman and is not a cult of domination. If it inspires a punished and bad treated woman to stand up and free herself i think it´s great. Because we all know that a man has more physical power and violence in his ego then most woman does and a lot make use of it. If man would not hurt them there wouldnt be a problem so the problem for them is imo the violence and traditional thinking of being superior just because of the **** adam and eve fairy tale.

Edited August 13, 2014 by NWN_babaYaga

[Volourn]

"Because we all know that a man has more physical power and violence in his ego then most woman does and a lot make use of it. If man would not hurt them there wouldnt be a problem so the problem for them is imo the violence and traditional thinking of being superior just because of the **** adam and eve fairy tale."

 

So, you bleive, that men by nature are just violent psychopaths simply ebcause theya re men/ that's sexist. And, stupid. And, evil. And, very feminist of you.

[Leferd]

 

 

 

 

Can't we all just agree to be humanists?

 

What is your definition of a humanist?

I'd start with Sir Thomas More...but having grown up reading his work, and opting for something more recent, I'm deferring to my favorite mensch:

That's an excellent video and I watched the whole thing, and I now understand what you mean by a humanist.

 

But in relation to feminism I don't see humanism as being diametrically opposed to it. In fact I now consider myself a feminist and a humanist. But because feminism is about something that raises the issue of equality in society are we now saying that someone who doesn't believe in gender equality should be entitled to his belief? Of course he should, I may reject this view but that's his right. But it doesn't change the fact that feminist agenda expects equality in the eyes of law and a person who goes on radio or a forum and says " I don't think women are my equal, they shouldn't be allowed to get certain jobs " is going to get criticised as is my right to do? I am not saying " he must change his view"...I am saying "I don't agree " and the fact we are all allowed to have our views is also a principle of humanism

I don't have an issue with feminism, but as others have alluded to, certain feminists take such an overtly aggressive anti-male view that it becomes tiring and off-putting, especially to those who have a moderate and would normally have sympathetic opinion to the feminist cause and gender equality. Unfortunately, these "femme-nazis" have effectively poisoned the well for the rest, eliciting a knee-jerk response when one hears "feminist."

 

That being said, I prefer the more humanistic view as so put forth by Dr. Asimov. I'm glad you liked the video and may I recommend another?

 

Watch A Man for All Seasons (Paul Scofield and Orson Welles version). It's based on the legend surrounding Sir Thomas More - the foremost humanist during the Renaissance era. Themes include standing up for principle, logic, morals, human decency, conviction of beliefs in times of peril, and yes, includes early feminist ideas.

 

http://youtu.be/zbZfh-5QsAw

Edited August 14, 2014 by Leferd

[BruceVC]

"But  do you think men need  campaigns or societal  attention  to ensure this , are we discriminated against in the workplace and in society just because we are men?"

 

Actually, men ARE discriminated against in the work place.

 

Anyways, feminism is sexist by **** very nature.

 

I believe in TRUE equality those who believe in feminism or masculinism do not.

 

\Dictionary definitions are irrelevant. Real world applications are what matter.

Men are discriminated against in the work place, what do you mean?

 

How is feminism sexist? As I've explained numerous times feminism is not about the marginalization of men, its about ensuring gender equality. If you don't agree with that then post some links or examples to explain your point further

Edited August 14, 2014 by BruceVC

[Volourn]

"Men are discriminated against in the work place, what do you mean?"

 

Read stories about daycares or preschools and how men are dealt with there as just ONE example.

 

 

"How is feminism sexist?"

 

For starters, the name itself suggests that to believe in equality one must be 'feminine' therefore implying the opposite that masculinty = the belief in non equality. How  is that not sexist?

 

It's like when someone uses 'sissy' or 'stop acting like a girl' as some sort of putdown. It's nto any different.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Volourn

[BruceVC]

"Men are discriminated against in the work place, what do you mean?"

 

Read stories about daycares or preschools and how men are dealt with there as just ONE example.

 

 

"How is feminism sexist?"

 

For starters, the name itself suggests that to believe in equality one must be 'feminine' therefore implying the opposite that masculinty = the belief in non equality. How  is that not sexist?

 

It's like when someone uses 'sissy' or 'stop acting like a girl' as some sort of putdown. It's nto any different.

 

I have tried to explain this to  you several times  and I'm clearly failing, I'll try one more time

 

In the English language we use dictionaries to determine the meaning of words. For example if you think the word "arrogant" means happy you are wrong and it doesn't matter what  your personal experiences are or what you think the work "arrogant " means, it doesn't mean happy. This is irrefutable and cannot be debated

 

I listed the definition of feminism from two of the  main English dictionaries, Oxford and Merriam-Webster, and it doesn't mean sexist and it doesn't men are discriminated against. It means "the advocacy for the equal rights of women"....I  am battling to understand why you cannot understand this simple fact ?

Edited August 14, 2014 by BruceVC

[Volourn]

Gay means happy. Yeah.

 

Definitions change. Bittom line is feminism by its very nature is sexist. Just like 'tomboy' is.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Volourn

[NWN_babaYaga]

I´m a guy and definately not a female sexist... Man use their physical power against woman every day even they know that the female cant fight back. This attitude is disgusting. But it is accepted by many of us in secret when you are not questioned about it in the public. And yes we have a very violent ego because of our historical and cultural heritage (islam + christinaity) where eve the bad witch, the uber example of the ordinary woman is nothing more then a wet succubus. Why are not man covered in ugly full bodyrobes ?

[BruceVC]

Gay means happy. Yeah.

 

Definitions change. Bittom line is feminism by its very nature is sexist. Just like 'tomboy' is.

 

Don't mean to be pedantic but the definition of the gay means both happy and homosexual and the English dictionary recognizes this

 

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/gay

 

But there is no definition of the word  feminism that says the word means sexism or men must be marginalized

 

This is your interpretation of the word and this is simply wrong

[kirottu]

You should go check the definition of "change" from dictionary while you're at it. 

[Volourn]

"This is your interpretation of the word and this is simply wrong"

 

It's a real world interpretation.

 

Kirottu wins.

[Leferd]

"This is your interpretation of the word and this is simply wrong"

 

It's a real world interpretation.

 

Kirottu wins.

Have to side with Volo here. And if you must use a dictionary, I'd even posit that urban dictionary is probably even more relevant than M-W or Oxford.

 

The word feminism has so much negative stigma associated with it that those championing the gender equality cause need to pick a new word.

[Raithe]

Here's a point for you to consider Bruce,  think about how a lot of guys act with other guys. With their male friends, with the banter and casual insults, the serious conversations and the sexual put downs of each other used in joking fashions (I'm not saying that's a completely standard style of behaviour, but it's a general overview of a lot of classic male bonding).   

 

Now consider that a fair few feminists demand equal treatment, that they shouldn't receive any different behaviour for being a woman. Yet if a guy acts in that same manner to a woman that he would to another man, he tends to be called sexist. So they still want you to treat them differently, it's just the type of behaviour they want changed.

 

That is changing somewhat, society is shifting in a lot of ways. Just look at the groups of "laddish" girls in the UK. They go support soccer, drink pints down the pub, cheerfully insult each other and men around, and have no problem getting drunk and flashing strangers. Just like a lot of drunken loutish men do. So, technically, isn't that equality? They're behaving the same, they react the same way, they treat each other in similar manners.

 

The thing is, is that necessarily a good thing in that manner?

[Orogun01]

Third page and we are already discussing semantics, we must be running thin after all those unofficial feminism derails.

Anyways, I for one have no problem with feminism being sexist or focusing just on one gender, is when they start focusing on my gender that I get chills. For a movement that is supposed to be about the betterment and empowerment of women there sure is a lot of talk about men, I guess every good story needs a villain.

[Blarghagh]

Actually the semantics started on page one.

 

But yeah, I always hesistate before calling myself a feminist. I prefer to say that I am pro gender equality. Most people see "feminist" and read "feminazi" or "white knight".

[Malcador]

Be wary of anyone that describes themselves as anything-ist.