The state of Feminism, the good the bad

[BruceVC]

Hi All

 

I think its time we had this important discussion. As most of you know I consider myself  a committed feminist. I have noticed there is loads of misinformation around what Feminism is and isn't. In another thread Volo said to me  (please note I am not attacking Volo, I am using his post to highlight the misunderstanding people have around feminism) My comments are in Red and obviously Volo responded

 

No its not, feminism is an important way to ensure gender equality."
 

Quite the opposite. It demeans men, it paints all men as pigs who only exist to rape women. It claims that  the world would be better off if men had no power and only women wer ein charge.Feminism is evil to the core. If you believe in feminism you don't believe in equallity - only the fake kind where men are the lesser of the two genders.I believe in TRUE equality. Feminists do not. It's right in the name. Feminism = females are superior gender.

 

"Please don't display your ignorance Volo"

 

Look in a mirror. Believing that 'feminism' = equality is the definition of ignorance.I'll create masculinism and claim it's about equality.  L0L

 

 

So the first thing we need to understand is "what is feminism and what is a feminist "?

 

A feminist is someone who believes in feminism, so what is feminism?

All feminism means is the belief that the genders are equal and need to be treated equally and have equal opportunities in society

 

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/feminism

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/feminism

 

So what does this mean in relative terms? I can give many examples but some are 

• women should be able to vote,
• it means that if a women is doing the same job as a man she should get paid the same amount of money
• there are very few  things as "its only a job a man can do "
• if a women is suitably qualified to get a job she should have the same chances to get that job as a man
• A womens role in a relationship or marriage is not assumed to be one where she has to sit at home and look after the kids and get the dinner ready
• Equal and effective education

 

 

 

Feminism does not mean

 

• All men are scum and rapist pigs
• I cant comment on an attractive women
• Women are automatically better than men
• Its about inequality around the sexes
• As man if I say  I am feminist I now hate my own gender
• We need to feel constantly guilty or the cause of feminism is about some guilt trip

 

Now you may say "No Bruce, feminism is not what you say it is ", then I want  to hear what you think feminism is. Also there are times we cant enforce gender equality because women would be  at a disadvantage because of the physical difference. For example you can't expect the women and mens rugby team to play full contact rugby against each other. Also I believe some jobs you can't compromise on the requirements just so women will join, for example the Navy Seals have a strict criteria to a qualify for. This criteria needs to be same for men and women

 

 

Some of you have the wrong idea of feminism because you think that people like Anita Saarkesian represent all feminist ideals. But she has her own agenda and I don't necessarily agree with everything she says . I am not saying her attempts to raise genuine issues around the objectification of women in games are wrong. But  I don't think everything she does is helpful to the greater cause of gender equality

 

So in summary feminism is an important belief because its about the equality of the sexes. I don't understand how any man can not want to live in a world where your mother, daughter, sister, girlfriend, wife or any other women you know is treated equally

 

I look forward to your responses

Edited August 13, 2014 by BruceVC

[Bester]

>All feminism means is the belief that the genders are equal

Yeah, right. If genders are equal, then why do you call your doctrine FEMINism? Call it MANism, then I'll believe you.

 

>As most of you know I consider myself a committed feminist.

Nice one xD I had a short burst of uncontrollable laughter when I saw this xD

 

Alright, one more time. Here's what feminism actually is.

 

Feminist theory on sex consists of three distinct theories:

1. If you're not gay or lesbian, then you're mentally ill (See "Feminism and the connection to homosexuality").
2. Any sex with a man is rape, and even married women who consent are just plain too stupid to know they've been raped, even if it was a pleasant experience.
3. That all forms of pornography and sex are fine, so long as it is not connected to any type of traditional values or morals, such as marriage and family.



This piece outlines most of the material from section 2:

"All sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of violence perpetrated against a woman." Catherine MacKinnon

"All men are rapists and that's all they are" -- Marilyn French Author, "The Women's Room" (quoted again in People Magazine)



"[Rape] is nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which ALL MEN KEEP ALL WOMEN IN A STATE OF FEAR" [emphasis added] -- Susan Brownmiller (Against Our Will p. 6)

"Marriage as an institution developed from rape as a practice. Rape, originally defined as abduction, became marriage by capture. Marriage meant the taking was to extend in time, to be not only use of but possession of, or ownership." -- Andrea Dworkin.

"Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women's bodies." -- Andrea Dworkin

"Romance is rape embellished with meaningful looks." Andrea Dworkin in the Philadelphia Inquirer, May 21, 1995..

"Under patriarchy, no woman is safe to live her life, or to love, or to mother children. Under patriarchy, every woman is a victim, past, present, and future. Under patriarchy, every woman's daughter is a victim, past, present, and future. Under patriarchy, every woman's son is her potential betrayer and also the inevitable rapist or exploiter of another woman," Andrea Dworkin, Liberty, p.58..

"One can know everything and still be unable to accept the fact that sex and murder are fused in the male consciousness, so that the one without the imminent possibly of the other is unthinkable and impossible." Andrea Dworkin, Letters from a War Zone, p. 21..

"In every century, there are a handful of writers who help the human race to evolve. Andrea is one of them."--Gloria Steinem

"And if the professional rapist is to be separated from the average dominant heterosexual [male], it may be mainly a quantitative difference." -- Susan Griffin "Rape: The All-American Crime"

"The institution of sexual intercourse is anti-feminist" -- Ti-Grace Atkinson "Amazon Odyssey" (p. 86)

"When a woman reaches orgasm with a man she is only collaborating with the patriarchal system, eroticizing her own oppression..." -- Sheila Jeffrys

"I claim that rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has not been initiated by the woman, out of her own genuine affection and desire." -- Robin Morgan, "Theory and Practice: Pornography and Rape" in "Going to Far," 1974.

"Who cares how men feel or what they do or whether they suffer? They have had over 2000 years to dominate and made a complete hash of it. Now it is our turn. My only comment to men is, if you don't like it, bad luck - and if you get in my way I'll run you down." -- Letter to the Editor: "Women's Turn to Dominate" -- Signed: Liberated Women, Boronia -- Herald-Sun, Melbourne, Australia - 9 February 1996



Toward a Feminist Theory of the State. Catharine A. MacKinnon, 1989, First Harvard University Press (paperback in 1991) [a legal treatise comparing and contrasting feminism with COMMUNISM AND SOCIALISM]

"It is not only men convicted of rape who believe that the only thing they did that was different from what men do all the time is get caught."

"If sexuality is central to women's definition and forced sex is central to sexuality, rape is indigenous, not exceptional, to women's social condition."

"Under law, rape is a sex crime that is not regarded as a crime when it looks like sex. The law, speaking generally, defines rape as intercourse with force or coercion and without consent., Like sexuality under male supremacy, this definition assumes the sadomasochistic definition of sex: intercourse with force or coercion can be or become consensual."

"Compare victims' reports of rape with women's reports of sex. They look a lot alike....[T]he major distinction between intercourse (normal) and rape (abnormal) is that the normal happens so often that one cannot get anyone to see anything wrong with it." Catherine MacKinnon, quoted in Christina Hoff Sommers, "Hard-Line Feminists Guilty of Ms.-Representation," Wall Street Journal, November 7, 1991.

"In a patriarchal society all heterosexual intercourse is rape because women, as a group, are not strong enough to give meaningful consent." Catherine MacKinnon in Professing Feminism: Cautionary Tales from the Strange World of Women's Studies, p. 129..

"[Acquaintance rape] is more common than left-handedness, alcoholism and heart attacks." Naomi Wolf, The Beauty Myth (in the feminist attempt to build a case that "one in four" women have been raped in America.)

"Rape is a violent expression of a pattern of male supremacy, an outgrowth of age-old economic, political and cultural exploitation of women by men." From a pamphlet entitled "Woman Against Myth" by Betty Millard published in 1948 by CPUSA (the Communist Party of USA.)

"[R]ape represents an extreme behavior, but one that is on a continuum with normal male behavior within the culture." Prof. Mary Koss of Kent State University (1982)

"Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience." Catherine Comins, Vassar College Assistant Dean of Student Life in Time, June 3, 1991, p. 52..

As cited in Andrea Dworkin's "Right-Wing Women" "...I submit that any sexual intercourse between a free man and a human being he owns or controls is rape." -- Alice Walker in "Embracing the Dark and the Light," Essence, July 1982. (Feminists believe that marriage = ownership).

"Compare victims' reports of rape with women's reports of sex. They look a lot alike....[T]he major distinction between intercourse (normal) and rape (abnormal) is that the normal happens so often that one cannot get anyone to see anything wrong with it." Catherine MacKinnon, quoted in Christina Hoff Sommers, "Hard-Line Feminists Guilty of Ms.-Representation," Wall Street Journal, November 7, 1991.

"I feel that 'man-hating' is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them." -- Robin Morgan, (editor of MS magazine)

A young woman at the University of Pennsylvania who wore a short skirt complained of a "mini-rape" because a young man walked past her and said, "Nice legs." (Camille Paglia and Christine Hoff Sommers, "Has Feminism Gone Too Far?" Think Tank with Ben Wattenberg, Produced by New River Media, Washington, DC, November 4, 1994.)

At the University of Maryland, some female students posted the names of male students selected at random, young men about whom they knew nothing, under the heading "Potential Rapists." The message was that all men are potential rapists, though the men actually named probably did not find much comfort in that... Far more serious are the accusations of actual rape when nothing of the sort occurred. A female student came to a male student's quarters with her toothbrush, planning to stay the night. The next morning she was seen having a peaceable breakfast with the man. Later she charged him with rape and he was briefly held in jail. (John Leo, "De-escalating the gender war" U.S. News and World Report, April 18,1994, p.24.)

Accusations of date rape are flung freely by women who consented and later changed their minds about what they did. -- From: Robert H. Bork (1996): Slouching Towards Gomorrah: Modern Liberalism and American Decline, Regan Books/HarperCollins, NY (pp.193-225)

"Female heterosexuality is not a biological drive or an individual women's erotic attraction or attachment to another human animal which happens to be male. Female heterosexuality is a set of social institutions and practices... Those definitions... are about the oppression and exploitation of women [by men]." Marilyn Frye, Willful Virgin: Essays in Feminism, 1976-1992 ( Freedom: Crossing Press,1992) p.132

Edited August 13, 2014 by Bester

[Leferd]

Can't we all just agree to be humanists?

[BruceVC]

Can't we all just agree to be humanists?

 

What is your definition of a humanist?

 

The reality is even if its the  right thing to do purely from a moral perspective that we treat the genders equally that's not how many societies and people function, so we need to legislate certain rights and ways that people need to behave. In an ideal world we shouldn't have to do this, but we don't live in an ideal world. We live in a world where some people feel women are inferior to men and that's not acceptable

[BruceVC]

>All feminism means is the belief that the genders are equal

Yeah, right. If genders are equal, then why do you call your doctrine FEMINism? Call it MANism, then I'll believe you.

 

>As most of you know I consider myself a committed feminist.

Nice one xD I had a short burst of uncontrollable laughter when I saw this xD

 

Alright, one more time. Here's what feminism actually is.

 

Feminist theory on sex consists of three distinct theories:

 

1. If you're not gay or lesbian, then you're mentally ill (See "Feminism and the connection to homosexuality").

2. Any sex with a man is rape, and even married women who consent are just plain too stupid to know they've been raped, even if it was a pleasant experience.

3. That all forms of pornography and sex are fine, so long as it is not connected to any type of traditional values or morals, such as marriage and family.

 

 

 

This piece outlines most of the material from section 2:

 

"All sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of violence perpetrated against a woman." Catherine MacKinnon

 

"All men are rapists and that's all they are" -- Marilyn French Author, "The Women's Room" (quoted again in People Magazine)

 

 

 

"[Rape] is nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which ALL MEN KEEP ALL WOMEN IN A STATE OF FEAR" [emphasis added] -- Susan Brownmiller (Against Our Will p. 6)

 

"Marriage as an institution developed from rape as a practice. Rape, originally defined as abduction, became marriage by capture. Marriage meant the taking was to extend in time, to be not only use of but possession of, or ownership." -- Andrea Dworkin.

 

"Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women's bodies." -- Andrea Dworkin

 

"Romance is rape embellished with meaningful looks." Andrea Dworkin in the Philadelphia Inquirer, May 21, 1995..

 

"Under patriarchy, no woman is safe to live her life, or to love, or to mother children. Under patriarchy, every woman is a victim, past, present, and future. Under patriarchy, every woman's daughter is a victim, past, present, and future. Under patriarchy, every woman's son is her potential betrayer and also the inevitable rapist or exploiter of another woman," Andrea Dworkin, Liberty, p.58..

 

"One can know everything and still be unable to accept the fact that sex and murder are fused in the male consciousness, so that the one without the imminent possibly of the other is unthinkable and impossible." Andrea Dworkin, Letters from a War Zone, p. 21..

 

"In every century, there are a handful of writers who help the human race to evolve. Andrea is one of them."--Gloria Steinem

 

"And if the professional rapist is to be separated from the average dominant heterosexual [male], it may be mainly a quantitative difference." -- Susan Griffin "Rape: The All-American Crime"

 

"The institution of sexual intercourse is anti-feminist" -- Ti-Grace Atkinson "Amazon Odyssey" (p. 86)

 

"When a woman reaches orgasm with a man she is only collaborating with the patriarchal system, eroticizing her own oppression..." -- Sheila Jeffrys

 

"I claim that rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has not been initiated by the woman, out of her own genuine affection and desire." -- Robin Morgan, "Theory and Practice: Pornography and Rape" in "Going to Far," 1974.

 

"Who cares how men feel or what they do or whether they suffer? They have had over 2000 years to dominate and made a complete hash of it. Now it is our turn. My only comment to men is, if you don't like it, bad luck - and if you get in my way I'll run you down." -- Letter to the Editor: "Women's Turn to Dominate" -- Signed: Liberated Women, Boronia -- Herald-Sun, Melbourne, Australia - 9 February 1996

 

 

 

Toward a Feminist Theory of the State. Catharine A. MacKinnon, 1989, First Harvard University Press (paperback in 1991) [a legal treatise comparing and contrasting feminism with COMMUNISM AND SOCIALISM]

 

"It is not only men convicted of rape who believe that the only thing they did that was different from what men do all the time is get caught."

 

"If sexuality is central to women's definition and forced sex is central to sexuality, rape is indigenous, not exceptional, to women's social condition."

 

"Under law, rape is a sex crime that is not regarded as a crime when it looks like sex. The law, speaking generally, defines rape as intercourse with force or coercion and without consent., Like sexuality under male supremacy, this definition assumes the sadomasochistic definition of sex: intercourse with force or coercion can be or become consensual."

 

"Compare victims' reports of rape with women's reports of sex. They look a lot alike....[T]he major distinction between intercourse (normal) and rape (abnormal) is that the normal happens so often that one cannot get anyone to see anything wrong with it." Catherine MacKinnon, quoted in Christina Hoff Sommers, "Hard-Line Feminists Guilty of Ms.-Representation," Wall Street Journal, November 7, 1991.

 

"In a patriarchal society all heterosexual intercourse is rape because women, as a group, are not strong enough to give meaningful consent." Catherine MacKinnon in Professing Feminism: Cautionary Tales from the Strange World of Women's Studies, p. 129..

 

"[Acquaintance rape] is more common than left-handedness, alcoholism and heart attacks." Naomi Wolf, The Beauty Myth (in the feminist attempt to build a case that "one in four" women have been raped in America.)

 

"Rape is a violent expression of a pattern of male supremacy, an outgrowth of age-old economic, political and cultural exploitation of women by men." From a pamphlet entitled "Woman Against Myth" by Betty Millard published in 1948 by CPUSA (the Communist Party of USA.)

 

"[R]ape represents an extreme behavior, but one that is on a continuum with normal male behavior within the culture." Prof. Mary Koss of Kent State University (1982)

 

"Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience." Catherine Comins, Vassar College Assistant Dean of Student Life in Time, June 3, 1991, p. 52..

 

As cited in Andrea Dworkin's "Right-Wing Women" "...I submit that any sexual intercourse between a free man and a human being he owns or controls is rape." -- Alice Walker in "Embracing the Dark and the Light," Essence, July 1982. (Feminists believe that marriage = ownership).

 

"Compare victims' reports of rape with women's reports of sex. They look a lot alike....[T]he major distinction between intercourse (normal) and rape (abnormal) is that the normal happens so often that one cannot get anyone to see anything wrong with it." Catherine MacKinnon, quoted in Christina Hoff Sommers, "Hard-Line Feminists Guilty of Ms.-Representation," Wall Street Journal, November 7, 1991.

 

"I feel that 'man-hating' is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them." -- Robin Morgan, (editor of MS magazine)

 

A young woman at the University of Pennsylvania who wore a short skirt complained of a "mini-rape" because a young man walked past her and said, "Nice legs." (Camille Paglia and Christine Hoff Sommers, "Has Feminism Gone Too Far?" Think Tank with Ben Wattenberg, Produced by New River Media, Washington, DC, November 4, 1994.)

 

At the University of Maryland, some female students posted the names of male students selected at random, young men about whom they knew nothing, under the heading "Potential Rapists." The message was that all men are potential rapists, though the men actually named probably did not find much comfort in that... Far more serious are the accusations of actual rape when nothing of the sort occurred. A female student came to a male student's quarters with her toothbrush, planning to stay the night. The next morning she was seen having a peaceable breakfast with the man. Later she charged him with rape and he was briefly held in jail. (John Leo, "De-escalating the gender war" U.S. News and World Report, April 18,1994, p.24.)

 

Accusations of date rape are flung freely by women who consented and later changed their minds about what they did. -- From: Robert H. Bork (1996): Slouching Towards Gomorrah: Modern Liberalism and American Decline, Regan Books/HarperCollins, NY (pp.193-225)

 

"Female heterosexuality is not a biological drive or an individual women's erotic attraction or attachment to another human animal which happens to be male. Female heterosexuality is a set of social institutions and practices... Those definitions... are about the oppression and exploitation of women [by men]." Marilyn Frye, Willful Virgin: Essays in Feminism, 1976-1992 ( Freedom: Crossing Press,1992) p.132

 

Can you provide some links and present your argument in a way so that I research it properly?

Also keep it simple, I can't possibly respond to all those points, focus on one or two lines of information with links so I can confirm the context

[Leferd]

 

 

Can't we all just agree to be humanists?

 

What is your definition of a humanist?

 

The reality is even if its the right thing to do purely from a moral perspective that we treat the genders equally that's not how many societies and people function, so we need to legislate certain rights and ways that people need to behave. In an ideal world we shouldn't have to do this, but we don't live in an ideal world. We live in a world where some people feel women are inferior to men and that's not acceptable

I'd start with Sir Thomas More...but having grown up reading his work, and opting for something more recent, I'm deferring to my favorite mensch:

 

Edited August 13, 2014 by Leferd

[BruceVC]

 

 

Can't we all just agree to be humanists?

What is your definition of a humanist?

 

The reality is even if its the right thing to do purely from a moral perspective that we treat the genders equally that's not how many societies and people function, so we need to legislate certain rights and ways that people need to behave. In an ideal world we shouldn't have to do this, but we don't live in an ideal world. We live in a world where some people feel women are inferior to men and that's not acceptable

I'd start with Sir Thomas More...but having grown up reading his work, and opting for something more recent, I'm deferring to my favorite mensch:

 

 

 

That's an excellent video and I watched the whole thing,  and I now understand what you mean by a humanist.

 

But in relation to feminism I don't see humanism as being diametrically opposed to it. In fact I now consider myself a feminist and a humanist. But because feminism is about something that raises the issue of equality in society are we now saying that someone who doesn't believe in gender equality should be  entitled to his belief? Of course he should, I may reject this view but that's his right. But it doesn't change the fact that feminist agenda expects equality in the eyes of law and a person who goes on radio or a forum and says " I don't think women are my equal, they shouldn't be allowed to get certain jobs " is going to get criticised as is my right to do? I am not saying " he must change his view"...I am saying "I don't agree " and  the fact we are all allowed to have our views is also a principle of humanism

[kirottu]

Look! A word that has different meanings for different people. Lets now debate which one is the most rightest.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

>All feminism means is the belief that the genders are equal

Yeah, right. If genders are equal, then why do you call your doctrine FEMINism? Call it MANism, then I'll believe you.

 

>As most of you know I consider myself a committed feminist.

Nice one xD I had a short burst of uncontrollable laughter when I saw this xD

 

Alright, one more time. Here's what feminism actually is.

 

Feminist theory on sex consists of three distinct theories:

 

1. If you're not gay or lesbian, then you're mentally ill (See "Feminism and the connection to homosexuality").

2. Any sex with a man is rape, and even married women who consent are just plain too stupid to know they've been raped, even if it was a pleasant experience.

3. That all forms of pornography and sex are fine, so long as it is not connected to any type of traditional values or morals, such as marriage and family.

 

 

 

This piece outlines most of the material from section 2:

 

"All sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of violence perpetrated against a woman." Catherine MacKinnon

 

"All men are rapists and that's all they are" -- Marilyn French Author, "The Women's Room" (quoted again in People Magazine)

 

 

 

"[Rape] is nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which ALL MEN KEEP ALL WOMEN IN A STATE OF FEAR" [emphasis added] -- Susan Brownmiller (Against Our Will p. 6)

 

"Marriage as an institution developed from rape as a practice. Rape, originally defined as abduction, became marriage by capture. Marriage meant the taking was to extend in time, to be not only use of but possession of, or ownership." -- Andrea Dworkin.

 

"Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women's bodies." -- Andrea Dworkin

 

"Romance is rape embellished with meaningful looks." Andrea Dworkin in the Philadelphia Inquirer, May 21, 1995..

 

"Under patriarchy, no woman is safe to live her life, or to love, or to mother children. Under patriarchy, every woman is a victim, past, present, and future. Under patriarchy, every woman's daughter is a victim, past, present, and future. Under patriarchy, every woman's son is her potential betrayer and also the inevitable rapist or exploiter of another woman," Andrea Dworkin, Liberty, p.58..

 

"One can know everything and still be unable to accept the fact that sex and murder are fused in the male consciousness, so that the one without the imminent possibly of the other is unthinkable and impossible." Andrea Dworkin, Letters from a War Zone, p. 21..

 

"In every century, there are a handful of writers who help the human race to evolve. Andrea is one of them."--Gloria Steinem

 

"And if the professional rapist is to be separated from the average dominant heterosexual [male], it may be mainly a quantitative difference." -- Susan Griffin "Rape: The All-American Crime"

 

"The institution of sexual intercourse is anti-feminist" -- Ti-Grace Atkinson "Amazon Odyssey" (p. 86)

 

"When a woman reaches orgasm with a man she is only collaborating with the patriarchal system, eroticizing her own oppression..." -- Sheila Jeffrys

 

"I claim that rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has not been initiated by the woman, out of her own genuine affection and desire." -- Robin Morgan, "Theory and Practice: Pornography and Rape" in "Going to Far," 1974.

 

"Who cares how men feel or what they do or whether they suffer? They have had over 2000 years to dominate and made a complete hash of it. Now it is our turn. My only comment to men is, if you don't like it, bad luck - and if you get in my way I'll run you down." -- Letter to the Editor: "Women's Turn to Dominate" -- Signed: Liberated Women, Boronia -- Herald-Sun, Melbourne, Australia - 9 February 1996

 

 

 

Toward a Feminist Theory of the State. Catharine A. MacKinnon, 1989, First Harvard University Press (paperback in 1991) [a legal treatise comparing and contrasting feminism with COMMUNISM AND SOCIALISM]

 

"It is not only men convicted of rape who believe that the only thing they did that was different from what men do all the time is get caught."

 

"If sexuality is central to women's definition and forced sex is central to sexuality, rape is indigenous, not exceptional, to women's social condition."

 

"Under law, rape is a sex crime that is not regarded as a crime when it looks like sex. The law, speaking generally, defines rape as intercourse with force or coercion and without consent., Like sexuality under male supremacy, this definition assumes the sadomasochistic definition of sex: intercourse with force or coercion can be or become consensual."

 

"Compare victims' reports of rape with women's reports of sex. They look a lot alike....[T]he major distinction between intercourse (normal) and rape (abnormal) is that the normal happens so often that one cannot get anyone to see anything wrong with it." Catherine MacKinnon, quoted in Christina Hoff Sommers, "Hard-Line Feminists Guilty of Ms.-Representation," Wall Street Journal, November 7, 1991.

 

"In a patriarchal society all heterosexual intercourse is rape because women, as a group, are not strong enough to give meaningful consent." Catherine MacKinnon in Professing Feminism: Cautionary Tales from the Strange World of Women's Studies, p. 129..

 

"[Acquaintance rape] is more common than left-handedness, alcoholism and heart attacks." Naomi Wolf, The Beauty Myth (in the feminist attempt to build a case that "one in four" women have been raped in America.)

 

"Rape is a violent expression of a pattern of male supremacy, an outgrowth of age-old economic, political and cultural exploitation of women by men." From a pamphlet entitled "Woman Against Myth" by Betty Millard published in 1948 by CPUSA (the Communist Party of USA.)

 

"[R]ape represents an extreme behavior, but one that is on a continuum with normal male behavior within the culture." Prof. Mary Koss of Kent State University (1982)

 

"Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience." Catherine Comins, Vassar College Assistant Dean of Student Life in Time, June 3, 1991, p. 52..

 

As cited in Andrea Dworkin's "Right-Wing Women" "...I submit that any sexual intercourse between a free man and a human being he owns or controls is rape." -- Alice Walker in "Embracing the Dark and the Light," Essence, July 1982. (Feminists believe that marriage = ownership).

 

"Compare victims' reports of rape with women's reports of sex. They look a lot alike....[T]he major distinction between intercourse (normal) and rape (abnormal) is that the normal happens so often that one cannot get anyone to see anything wrong with it." Catherine MacKinnon, quoted in Christina Hoff Sommers, "Hard-Line Feminists Guilty of Ms.-Representation," Wall Street Journal, November 7, 1991.

 

"I feel that 'man-hating' is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them." -- Robin Morgan, (editor of MS magazine)

 

A young woman at the University of Pennsylvania who wore a short skirt complained of a "mini-rape" because a young man walked past her and said, "Nice legs." (Camille Paglia and Christine Hoff Sommers, "Has Feminism Gone Too Far?" Think Tank with Ben Wattenberg, Produced by New River Media, Washington, DC, November 4, 1994.)

 

At the University of Maryland, some female students posted the names of male students selected at random, young men about whom they knew nothing, under the heading "Potential Rapists." The message was that all men are potential rapists, though the men actually named probably did not find much comfort in that... Far more serious are the accusations of actual rape when nothing of the sort occurred. A female student came to a male student's quarters with her toothbrush, planning to stay the night. The next morning she was seen having a peaceable breakfast with the man. Later she charged him with rape and he was briefly held in jail. (John Leo, "De-escalating the gender war" U.S. News and World Report, April 18,1994, p.24.)

 

Accusations of date rape are flung freely by women who consented and later changed their minds about what they did. -- From: Robert H. Bork (1996): Slouching Towards Gomorrah: Modern Liberalism and American Decline, Regan Books/HarperCollins, NY (pp.193-225)

 

"Female heterosexuality is not a biological drive or an individual women's erotic attraction or attachment to another human animal which happens to be male. Female heterosexuality is a set of social institutions and practices... Those definitions... are about the oppression and exploitation of women [by men]." Marilyn Frye, Willful Virgin: Essays in Feminism, 1976-1992 ( Freedom: Crossing Press,1992) p.132

 

Can you provide some links and present your argument in a way so that I research it properly?

 

Basically he took lots of quotes from people whose work is generally seen in today's academic discussions either as highly dated, or having nothing to do with mainstream feminism (generally both).

[Rostere]

This is like a debate on socialism, where suddenly someone says that Stalin killed so and so many people. What do you make out of that?

 

Well, guess what, ideologies are never clear-cut and in any case there is good stuff and bad stuff in all of them. There's no point in debating unless you define what the ideology means first.

 

Bruce should give examples of the feminism he espouses and then people can attack that if they want, instead of ridiculous straw-men statements. The usage of the word "feminism" becomes pointless when it means two different things to the people who are involved in the discussion.

[BruceVC]

 

 

>All feminism means is the belief that the genders are equal

Yeah, right. If genders are equal, then why do you call your doctrine FEMINism? Call it MANism, then I'll believe you.

 

>As most of you know I consider myself a committed feminist.

Nice one xD I had a short burst of uncontrollable laughter when I saw this xD

 

Alright, one more time. Here's what feminism actually is.

 

Feminist theory on sex consists of three distinct theories:

 

1. If you're not gay or lesbian, then you're mentally ill (See "Feminism and the connection to homosexuality").

2. Any sex with a man is rape, and even married women who consent are just plain too stupid to know they've been raped, even if it was a pleasant experience.

3. That all forms of pornography and sex are fine, so long as it is not connected to any type of traditional values or morals, such as marriage and family.

 

 

 

This piece outlines most of the material from section 2:

 

"All sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of violence perpetrated against a woman." Catherine MacKinnon

 

"All men are rapists and that's all they are" -- Marilyn French Author, "The Women's Room" (quoted again in People Magazine)

 

 

 

"[Rape] is nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which ALL MEN KEEP ALL WOMEN IN A STATE OF FEAR" [emphasis added] -- Susan Brownmiller (Against Our Will p. 6)

 

"Marriage as an institution developed from rape as a practice. Rape, originally defined as abduction, became marriage by capture. Marriage meant the taking was to extend in time, to be not only use of but possession of, or ownership." -- Andrea Dworkin.

 

"Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women's bodies." -- Andrea Dworkin

 

"Romance is rape embellished with meaningful looks." Andrea Dworkin in the Philadelphia Inquirer, May 21, 1995..

 

"Under patriarchy, no woman is safe to live her life, or to love, or to mother children. Under patriarchy, every woman is a victim, past, present, and future. Under patriarchy, every woman's daughter is a victim, past, present, and future. Under patriarchy, every woman's son is her potential betrayer and also the inevitable rapist or exploiter of another woman," Andrea Dworkin, Liberty, p.58..

 

"One can know everything and still be unable to accept the fact that sex and murder are fused in the male consciousness, so that the one without the imminent possibly of the other is unthinkable and impossible." Andrea Dworkin, Letters from a War Zone, p. 21..

 

"In every century, there are a handful of writers who help the human race to evolve. Andrea is one of them."--Gloria Steinem

 

"And if the professional rapist is to be separated from the average dominant heterosexual [male], it may be mainly a quantitative difference." -- Susan Griffin "Rape: The All-American Crime"

 

"The institution of sexual intercourse is anti-feminist" -- Ti-Grace Atkinson "Amazon Odyssey" (p. 86)

 

"When a woman reaches orgasm with a man she is only collaborating with the patriarchal system, eroticizing her own oppression..." -- Sheila Jeffrys

 

"I claim that rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has not been initiated by the woman, out of her own genuine affection and desire." -- Robin Morgan, "Theory and Practice: Pornography and Rape" in "Going to Far," 1974.

 

"Who cares how men feel or what they do or whether they suffer? They have had over 2000 years to dominate and made a complete hash of it. Now it is our turn. My only comment to men is, if you don't like it, bad luck - and if you get in my way I'll run you down." -- Letter to the Editor: "Women's Turn to Dominate" -- Signed: Liberated Women, Boronia -- Herald-Sun, Melbourne, Australia - 9 February 1996

 

 

 

Toward a Feminist Theory of the State. Catharine A. MacKinnon, 1989, First Harvard University Press (paperback in 1991) [a legal treatise comparing and contrasting feminism with COMMUNISM AND SOCIALISM]

 

"It is not only men convicted of rape who believe that the only thing they did that was different from what men do all the time is get caught."

 

"If sexuality is central to women's definition and forced sex is central to sexuality, rape is indigenous, not exceptional, to women's social condition."

 

"Under law, rape is a sex crime that is not regarded as a crime when it looks like sex. The law, speaking generally, defines rape as intercourse with force or coercion and without consent., Like sexuality under male supremacy, this definition assumes the sadomasochistic definition of sex: intercourse with force or coercion can be or become consensual."

 

"Compare victims' reports of rape with women's reports of sex. They look a lot alike....[T]he major distinction between intercourse (normal) and rape (abnormal) is that the normal happens so often that one cannot get anyone to see anything wrong with it." Catherine MacKinnon, quoted in Christina Hoff Sommers, "Hard-Line Feminists Guilty of Ms.-Representation," Wall Street Journal, November 7, 1991.

 

"In a patriarchal society all heterosexual intercourse is rape because women, as a group, are not strong enough to give meaningful consent." Catherine MacKinnon in Professing Feminism: Cautionary Tales from the Strange World of Women's Studies, p. 129..

 

"[Acquaintance rape] is more common than left-handedness, alcoholism and heart attacks." Naomi Wolf, The Beauty Myth (in the feminist attempt to build a case that "one in four" women have been raped in America.)

 

"Rape is a violent expression of a pattern of male supremacy, an outgrowth of age-old economic, political and cultural exploitation of women by men." From a pamphlet entitled "Woman Against Myth" by Betty Millard published in 1948 by CPUSA (the Communist Party of USA.)

 

"[R]ape represents an extreme behavior, but one that is on a continuum with normal male behavior within the culture." Prof. Mary Koss of Kent State University (1982)

 

"Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience." Catherine Comins, Vassar College Assistant Dean of Student Life in Time, June 3, 1991, p. 52..

 

As cited in Andrea Dworkin's "Right-Wing Women" "...I submit that any sexual intercourse between a free man and a human being he owns or controls is rape." -- Alice Walker in "Embracing the Dark and the Light," Essence, July 1982. (Feminists believe that marriage = ownership).

 

"Compare victims' reports of rape with women's reports of sex. They look a lot alike....[T]he major distinction between intercourse (normal) and rape (abnormal) is that the normal happens so often that one cannot get anyone to see anything wrong with it." Catherine MacKinnon, quoted in Christina Hoff Sommers, "Hard-Line Feminists Guilty of Ms.-Representation," Wall Street Journal, November 7, 1991.

 

"I feel that 'man-hating' is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them." -- Robin Morgan, (editor of MS magazine)

 

A young woman at the University of Pennsylvania who wore a short skirt complained of a "mini-rape" because a young man walked past her and said, "Nice legs." (Camille Paglia and Christine Hoff Sommers, "Has Feminism Gone Too Far?" Think Tank with Ben Wattenberg, Produced by New River Media, Washington, DC, November 4, 1994.)

 

At the University of Maryland, some female students posted the names of male students selected at random, young men about whom they knew nothing, under the heading "Potential Rapists." The message was that all men are potential rapists, though the men actually named probably did not find much comfort in that... Far more serious are the accusations of actual rape when nothing of the sort occurred. A female student came to a male student's quarters with her toothbrush, planning to stay the night. The next morning she was seen having a peaceable breakfast with the man. Later she charged him with rape and he was briefly held in jail. (John Leo, "De-escalating the gender war" U.S. News and World Report, April 18,1994, p.24.)

 

Accusations of date rape are flung freely by women who consented and later changed their minds about what they did. -- From: Robert H. Bork (1996): Slouching Towards Gomorrah: Modern Liberalism and American Decline, Regan Books/HarperCollins, NY (pp.193-225)

 

"Female heterosexuality is not a biological drive or an individual women's erotic attraction or attachment to another human animal which happens to be male. Female heterosexuality is a set of social institutions and practices... Those definitions... are about the oppression and exploitation of women [by men]." Marilyn Frye, Willful Virgin: Essays in Feminism, 1976-1992 ( Freedom: Crossing Press,1992) p.132

 

Can you provide some links and present your argument in a way so that I research it properly?

 

Basically he took lots of quotes from people whose work is generally seen in today's academic discussions either as highly dated, or having nothing to do with mainstream feminism (generally both).

 

Yeah, that's exactly what I thought, for the last 18 months every time I have raised issues around feminism there are certain people who have criticized me for " hijacking threads" or " not understanding the issue "

 

Now I have created a platform where we can discuss this is a mature and reasonable way  and I am interested in the feedback. If people like Bester cant contribute towards this topic in a meaningful way then he is a troll as others have mentioned. And that would disappoint me as I have always given him the benefit of the doubt

[BruceVC]

Look! A word that has different meanings for different people. Lets now debate which one is the most rightest.

 

This is a completely unhelpful comment, I have posted 2 direct dictionary definitions of feminism. As I said if you disagree then post your definition?

[Bester]

Bruce, as a man who doesn't understand feminazism, I have for now 2 questions that I'd like you to answer without you wriggling like a snake on a cooking pan, can we agree to that?

[BruceVC]

Bruce, as a man who doesn't understand feminazism, I have for now 2 questions that I'd like you to answer without you wriggling like a snake on a cooking pan, can we agree to that?

Of course, please ask

[Bester]

What do you think of the fact that in chess, the most genius women in the world can hardly achieve 2600 ELO rating, while men easily achieve 2800 and beyond?

[Blarghagh]

What's the sample audience there, Bester? There's going to be more standouts in a larger group, and much more men play competetive chess than women. That question is horribly oversimplified, not to mention leading. Even if it wasn't, what does it matter? ELO rating is about win/loss ratio, anything else people would derive from it is projection.

[BruceVC]

What do you think of the fact that in chess, the most genius women in the world can hardly achieve 2600 ELO rating, while men easily achieve 2800 and beyond?

 

I don't know why that is, I will need to research it further or see what others say. Are we saying men are better than women at chess as they have a genetic intellectual advantage?

 

If that's what you think then you must say so, I would rather people were completely honest on this thread, there is no judgement. I know plenty of men who do believe that

[Bester]

 

What do you think of the fact that in chess, the most genius women in the world can hardly achieve 2600 ELO rating, while men easily achieve 2800 and beyond?

 

I don't know why that is, I will need to research it further or see what others say. Are we saying men are better than women at chess as they have a genetic intellectual advantage?

 

If that's what you think then you must say so, I would rather people were completely honest on this thread, there is no judgement. I know plenty of men who do believe that

 

Well, do you deny that on average men are smarter than women?

 

Looking at this picture, does it not come to mind that throughout history men had to be inventive and only the strongest and the most cunning survived, while a woman's role in society was to cook and reproduce, thus giving modern women an evolutionary-based disadvantage in strength and intellect?

 

Edited August 13, 2014 by Bester

[Sarex]

I still have flash backs from the "women are as strong as men" discussion we had, so I am going to sit this one out.

[BruceVC]

Nothing anyone says will change Bester's opinion. Maybe a 20-life sentence for rape because the bitch wouldn't give him what all bitches owe him would shut him up (assuming he was ALPHA enough to go through with it, kill a bunch of people and make a youtube video whining about how he doesn't understand why his self-entitled misogynistic douchebag personality drives women away,) but that still would not likely change his opinion.

 

People's beliefs are practically set in stone.

 

Guys even if I agree with this sentiment I would prefer if we don't criticize anyone or make them feel uncomfortable when they express there opinion, This way we can get the real truth around peoples views and why seem to dismiss feminist ideals

 

 

I still have flash backs from the "women are as strong as men" discussion we had, so I am going to sit this one out.

 

Sarex you can be honest here. I don't remember that debate so what is your opinion on feminism?

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

Well, do you deny that on average men are smarter than women?

 

 

It's kind of hard not to deny, given the fact that average IQ ratings of the two are about on par (differences are generally small and variable in direction, when you look at a lot of studies - and there's a lot of them). There's a greater variability in men as far as I'm aware (meaning that there are more geniuses and more really dumb bastards out there who are male), but those two even each other out when counting averages. (Also, socioeconomic factors and the fact that the IQ scale is really, really bad at measuring actual intelligence are usually not taken into account in these studies.)

 

 

 

Looking at this picture, does it not come to mind that throughout history men had to be inventive and only the strongest and the most cunning survived, while a woman's role in society was to cook and reproduce, thus giving modern women an evolutionary-based disadvantage in strength and intellect?

[snip]

 

I'm no cultural anthropologist, but isn't that view something that has been so thoroughly debunked since the 60s that if you mention it to anybody in academia, they will just point and laugh at you?

Edited August 13, 2014 by aluminiumtrioxid

[Sarex]

Sarex you can be honest here. I don't remember that debate so what is your opinion on feminism?

 

While it may have started out as a movement for giving women equal rights, it's anything but that today. Today feminist only ask for rights but never mention the privileges that women enjoy. There is no equality to be had in the movement today. I won't even touch upon the subject of hardcore feminists, which seems to outnumber every other type (of feminists) today.

[Malcador]

Hard to pin it down but I still have the sense it is advocacy for one side rather than some lofty idea of both improving.

[BruceVC]

 

Sarex you can be honest here. I don't remember that debate so what is your opinion on feminism?

 

While it may have started out as a movement for giving women equal rights, it's anything but that today. Today feminist only ask for rights but never mention the privileges that women enjoy. There is no equality to be had in the movement today. I won't even touch upon the subject of hardcore feminists, which seems to outnumber every other type (of feminists) today.

 

 

This is an honest response and I appreciate it, when you talk about feminists asking for rights what in your opinion would these rights be that they want that are negated by the fact they already have privileges. And of course this will differ from country to country. So let me give you an example, there is a huge movement to get more women CEO in the Fortune 500 companies in the USA, but based on what you are saying would you feel feminists shouldn't be pushing for this because a counter argument to this could be " there is no need to get women into top positions in Fortune 500 companies because there are already many women CEO in normal companies"

 

Also what is your definition of normal feminists and hardcore feminists?

Hard to pin it down but I still have the sense it is advocacy for one side rather than some lofty idea of both improving.

 

So this is an interesting perspective, IMO as the definitions explain feminism is the advocacy of womens right because at the moment there isn't equality between the sexes. So you are right in that sense feminism isn't about mens rights. But  do you think men need  campaigns or societal  attention  to ensure this , are we discriminated against in the workplace and in society just because we are men?

 

Maybe you can give some examples where you personally have been  discriminated against because you are a man?  I'm  not saying you are wrong, its just never happened to me so I can't identify with it

[JadedWolf]

I would say that at this point the word feminism is hurting the cause of women more than aiding it. You can argue about the why of it, but the word feminism has aquired a certain stigma that is hard to get rid of. 

 

Let's put it this way, if I was championing a cause for women, say wage equality, I wouldn't call myself a feminist. I would probably get done more that way.