[Possible Spoilers] Pillars of Eternity will be livestreamed at Gamescom

[PrimeJunta]

As an aside, killing the ogre isn't worth XP either. Josh said there are other ways to deal with him as well. The objective was to stop the ogre from stealing the farmer's pigs. That's worth XP.

[Volourn]

You just stated what I said. You get xp for killing ogre because you are told by a NPC to do kill him. You don't get xp for killing beetles because no NPC tells you to kill them. What's the point of exploration then? I'll just let the npcs tell me where I should go. L0L

[Yonjuro]

" The intent of not including kill XP is to prevent (unfun) things like grinding. "

 

While I'm not a big fan of grinding for grinding sake this idea that 'grinding' in of itself is 'unfun is bogus. It's super bogus when entire games are made where 'grinding' is the entirety of the game and those games ar epopular and the player base finds it fun.

 

 By 'grinding' I don't mean killing things, I mean things like in IWD where the yeti respawn in the vale of shadows. If you wanted to, you could hit the level cap by resting there and killing yeti. Do you agree that it wouldn't be fun to do that? 

 

So, you just bashed  tons of players who enjoyed and had fun with Diablo, IWD,  and a host of other games.

 

 If someone likes Diablo or IWD that's fine with me and I never said otherwise.

 

... LMAO

 

 Ok, great, when you get done with that, pick your ass up off of the floor and we can continue the discussion based on what I actually said   (see above for what I meant by grinding). 

 

Anyways, you still haven't clarified - how is killing the ogre worth xp but not the beetles? because a NPC tells you to kill him. Come on.

 

 Why would I 'clarify' something I never said? You might be confusing me with someone else. The only comment I've made about this issue is that there may very well be problems with how/when objective XP  is handed out in the game and it will be good feedback for the devs if people can identify those cases during the beta test.  You seem to think I am arguing exactly the opposite of that.

[Volourn]

"If you wanted to, you could hit the level cap by resting there and killing yeti. Do you agree that it wouldn't be fun to do that? "

 

Ok. Good clarification. I would never do that nor do I find it fun. But, if other people do in a SP game... big deal? 

 

\And, if you want to stop that type of 'grinding' there are better  ways to do it. Either a ) don't have respawns at all or b) more enemies of the same type you kill the less value they are.

 

Afterall, one of my personal arguments in this is that why shouldn't the player gain xp after successfully defeating the beetles since xp is supposed to be extraction of 'learning'. Well, if you just killed your 50th beetle you probably aren't learning anything new compared to when you defeated your first.

Edited August 15, 2014 by Volourn

[PrimeJunta]

Edit: never mind

Edited August 15, 2014 by PrimeJunta

[BrokenMask]

You just stated what I said. You get xp for killing ogre because you are told by a NPC to do kill him. You don't get xp for killing beetles because no NPC tells you to kill them. What's the point of exploration then? I'll just let the npcs tell me where I should go. L0L

What, you don't find exploring and finding items to be fun?

 

And like the other guy said, you don't even NEED to kill the ogre to get the exp. So I guess that makes combat pointless for you? *shrugs* And I would have thought that people played these games because they like fighting, talking, exploring, looting, etc and not just exp rewards for doing those things. And if you do think those things are fun, then why would they require exp reward?

[Volourn]

Why have any xp at all then huh?

[BrokenMask]

Its relatively simple way to simulate character growth xD

[Volourn]

That's been my point all along.  So, why are you arguing that xp isn't needed to make something fun (something I haven't argued otherwise so that argument is useless against me since it wasn't my argument in the first place).

 

 

Why is beating the ogre worthy of xp but not the beetles (and I said beatle not kill so that implies talking or whatever method of 'beating' them)? And,d on't tell me it's ebcause the ogre is 'tougher'. I didn't see HIM kill any parties in the videos. L0L

 

So, the beetles are a worthy challenge to be overcome. They should be worth xp.

 

How 'bout a compromise.  You get x ammount of xp for ridding the map of violent over aggresive monsters like the beetles or spiders. You don't have to do this through combat. It cna be done like in FO where you can trap them inside a cave with explosives or whatever ala scorpions or  trick them into following a food source away from civilization. All these ways can lead you to get getting xp. See,  I win again.

Edited August 15, 2014 by Volourn

[Yonjuro]

"If you wanted to, you could hit the level cap by resting there and killing yeti. Do you agree that it wouldn't be fun to do that? "

 

Ok. Good clarification. I would never do that nor do I find it fun. But, if other people do in a SP game... big deal? 

 

 Nope, not a big deal to me as a player. It might be a big deal to a game designer (or to the therapist prescribing the OCD meds of the aforementioned people).

 

\And, if you want to stop that type of 'grinding' there are better  ways to do it. Either a ) don't have respawns at all or b) more enemies of the same type you kill the less value they are.

 

 Sure, I agree that there are other ways to do it.

 

 My point, if it isn't clear, is that Obsidian decided, for better or for worse, to use objective XP and so constructive feedback during the beta will be to tell them about places where the XP awards are encouraging people play the game in a way that isn't fun for them.

[Silent Winter]

That's been my point all along.  So, why are you arguing that xp isn't needed to make something fun (something I haven't argued otherwise so that argument is useless against me since it wasn't my argument in the first place).

 

 

Why is beating the ogre worthy of xp but not the beetles (and I said beatle not kill so that implies talking or whatever method of 'beating' them)? And,d on't tell me it's ebcause the ogre is 'tougher'. I didn't see HIM kill any parties in the videos. L0L

 

So, the beetles are a worthy challenge to be overcome. They should be worth xp.

 

^It could be argued that taking down/sneaking past all the beetles is a challenge in and of itself, sure.

It's just that in this case the devs decided it was only a step towards the other task.

 

The ogre isn't the objective by itself (though it is the quest) - it's just at that point (the end of the cave, after getting there) that you're awarded the XP

 

 

How 'bout a compromise.  You get x ammount of xp for ridding the map of violent over aggresive monsters like the beetles or spiders. You don't have to do this through combat. It cna be done like in FO where you can trap them inside a cave with explosives or whatever ala scorpions or  trick them into following a food source away from civilization. All these ways can lead you to get getting xp. See,  I win again.

 

That could also be a cool objective

Edited August 15, 2014 by Silent Winter

[BrokenMask]

Why is beating the ogre worthy of xp but not the beetles (and I said beatle not kill so that implies talking or whatever method of 'beating' them)? And,d on't tell me it's ebcause the ogre is 'tougher'. I didn't see HIM kill any parties in the videos. L0L

Yeah, but you aren't awarded for killing the ogre, you are awarded for completing the quest. You could have completed the quest without killing ogre. Killing any other ogre in the game wouldn't give exp.

 

And honestly, I prefer idea of not getting exp for killing enemies. I'm kinda sick of killing everything on the map just so that I don't have to worry about being underleveled. Besides, lots of time I'd rather not kill random wolves in forest just so I can get exp, it feels wasteful.

Edited August 15, 2014 by BrokenMask

[Volourn]

" My point, if it isn't clear, is that Obsidian decided, for better or for worse, to use objective XP and so constructive feedback during the beta will be to tell them about places where the XP awards are encouraging people play the game in a way that isn't fun for them."

 

And, this is my feedback.... well.. before all the drama started.. L0L

 

 

"The ogre isn't the objective by itself (though it is the quest) - it's just at that point (the end of the cave, after getting there) that you're awarded the XP"

 

The ogre is irrelevant to the beetles though. They aren't a part of the 'ogre quest'. That isn't the 'ogre map'. It';s just a huge overland map where the ogre cave/quest is just one aspect of it. There are other stuff/dungeons/etc. a part. of it. The betteles are just 'random' (more placed) enemies on the map found right near the entrance to the area so unavoidable mostly (barring sneaking though a full aprty isn't gonna be able to mass sneak barring a mass invisibility or alike).

 

So,  saying you get 'rewarded' for beating the beetles later when you beat the ogre doesn't make sense since they're not part of the ogre quest.

 

 

"Yeah, but you aren't awarded for killing the ogre, you are awarded for completing the quest. You could have completed the quest without killnig ogre. Killing any other ogre in the game wouldn't give exp."
 

So the quest ogre gives you xp but non quest ogre  doesn't? Why? Because npc tells you to hunt him down. So, this game is larping you as  a lap dog? No need to explore because npcs will tell you want you need to kill/talk to/sneak past to get xp?  Talk about opening the game up to metagaming.

 

This is so silly all because I had one simply question  on what was otherwise an awesome video.

Edited August 15, 2014 by Volourn

[Tuckey]

This debate reminds me of Schrödinger's cat. Does the journey exist if not rewarded with experience (and therefore observed? )

 

Either the journey is worthwhile or it isn't on its own terms. What I mean is that experience points is far from all we are getting from exploration, i.e. gear, meeting creatures/people, finding secrets etc

 

We will probably meet quest objectives unknowingly on the road and I'm okay with that, it could even be an optimal solution, either way a journey should be organic and not dictated by random quest givers, and it isn't from what I understand it to be.

[Silent Winter]

"The ogre isn't the objective by itself (though it is the quest) - it's just at that point (the end of the cave, after getting there) that you're awarded the XP"

 

The ogre is irrelevant to the beetles though. They aren't a part of the 'ogre quest'. That isn't the 'ogre map'. It';s just a huge overland map where the ogre cave/quest is just one aspect of it. There are other stuff/dungeons/etc. a part. of it. The betteles are just 'random' (more placed) enemies on the map found right near the entrance to the area so unavoidable mostly (barring sneaking though a full aprty isn't gonna be able to mass sneak barring a mass invisibility or alike).

 

So,  saying you get 'rewarded' for beating the beetles later when you beat the ogre doesn't make sense since they're not part of the ogre quest.

I see what you're saying - I just think that having a challenge on a map, when you can't complete any objectives without tackling that challenge in some way, makes it part of the objective.  If there are 3 caves on that map and there are different quests in each one, you still need to deal with the beetles.  The devs can take this into account when deciding how much xp an area's quests are worth.

We're getting enough xp to level and address the challenges in dealing with things but we're not having to deal with everything the same way.

I'll agree to disagree since we're going round in circles.\

(Though I do like your 'deal with the hostiles is an objective' idea)

[Volourn]

Good post. Can't argue with it. That's mean of you.

[salo]

Wow, this discussion is nuts. To the guys arguing for objective XP: you have the patience of saints, keep up the good work.

[Sensuki]

News at 5: Druid most OP class in the game atm.

[Sensuki]

steve fixed the auto-attack bug in #pillarsofeternity btw. not sure if it will be in the initial backer beta release but it will be soonish.

[ryukenden]

I didn't see this until now. I was there at the twitch gamescom channel. 

 

http://www.twitch.tv/paradoxinteractive/b/558125934

[PrimeJunta]

Why have any xp at all then huh?

That one's easy.

 

If you have character advancement and want to give the player a degree of control over it, you need some form of 'currency' with which to buy it. XP is a simple, general, and workable solution to this problem. Not the only one of course but IMO better than most of the alternatives.

 

"Why have ability scores, classes, or levels at all then huh?" would have been a better question. They are IMO an unnecessary layer of complexity. I prefer systems where you buy abilities directly.

 

FWIW I also like Numenera's solution of having other things to spend XP on than character advancement.

Edited August 15, 2014 by PrimeJunta

[Endrosz]

I didn't see this until now. I was there at the twitch gamescom channel. 

 

http://www.twitch.tv/paradoxinteractive/b/558125934

 

Adam: *shown rubbing his hands*

Josh: "... because this area is teeming with dangerous critters like giant beetles."

[Silent Winter]

News at 5: Druid most OP class in the game atm.

Druid? Where? What'd I miss?

[Mannock]

 

News at 5: Druid most OP class in the game atm.

Druid? Where? What'd I miss?

 

 

That's what Josh wrote on twitter. He will be playing as druid later today.

[Silent Winter]

^ah, ok - can't get on twitter here.

Will hopefully catch a stream later.