[Possible Spoilers] Pillars of Eternity will be livestreamed at Gamescom

[Lephys]

Ok, let me clarify. Beetles better NOT drop dragon hoards, or 6-packs of powerful alchemical mixtures (potions), otherwise this game has far bigger design issues than anything we're discussing here.

See, that's a completely different, and perfectly reasonable, statement. Wasn't so hard, was it? I, too, hope for this, but have no idea just how valuable beetle loot, in whatever form it takes, may be in the land of Eora.

[Silent Winter]

 

Your reward for overcoming the beetles (in this case) threat is that you can access those otherwise inaccessible areas.

(See also: Delayed XP)

I'll ask again. Where are you getting this from? Is that dungeon inaccessible until the beetles are slain? Are you prevented from accessing ANY Area transition on the entire map until you've dealt with the beetle threat?

 

As for delayed XP....will the rewards be less if you run away from the beetles and just make a bee-line to the Ogre den?

 

And then people wonder why Lephys writes longer posts to thoroughly explain what he means - it's because others can't get it without being led through it:

 

I said 'deal with the threat' which from the video and in this case means you'll probably have to combat them.  Assuming you're faster, then you might be able to run away but getting past without incurring lots of 'disengagement attacks' would be tricky (and thus worthy of reward)

 

'Run away from' = deal with the threat

'Sneak past' = deal with the threat

'kill-em-all' = deal with the threat

'kill just the ones in your way through careful party management and not antagonising those further afield' = deal with the threat

THAT'S THE POINT!

 

There are multiple ways to overcome the threats - the game just takes into account that you did it and then awards xp / you get to the cave / piglet-pet / etc

[Stun]

'Run away from' = deal with the threat

I want to focus on this, because it's false.

 

Running away from encounters specifically designed to challenge your party and (according to you) also designed to justify the "objective XP" that you're gonna get at the end of the quest, is every bit the degenerate behavior that Kill Grinding is. You are literally doing what the developers did not mean for you to do.

 

And this is why I asked you how you know that areas will be inaccessible until you deal with those beetles. Because if, for example, the Ogre den IS closed off to you until those beetles are slain, or scared off, or stealthed-past, then that's totally fine. But if not, then we've got a design problem: you were able to bypass the beetle threat without employing ANY skill whatsoever, and therefore, your objective XP rewards should be lessened as a result. I doubt they will be, though, because the OGRE is the objective, not the beetles.

Edited August 15, 2014 by Stun

[BrokenMask]

 

'Run away from' = deal with the threat

I want to focus on this, because it's false.

 

Running away from encounters specifically designed to challenge your party and (according to you) also designed to justify the "over all objective XP" that you're gonna get later as a reward) is every bit the degenerate behavior that Kill Grinding is. You are literally doing what the developers did not mean for you to do.

 

And this is why I asked you how you know that areas will be inaccessible until you deal with those beetles. Because if, for example, the Ogre den IS closed off to you until those beetles are slain, or scared off, or stealthed-past, then that's totally fine. But if not, then we've got a design problem: you were able to bypass the beetle threat without employing ANY skill whatsoever, and therefore, your objective XP rewards should be lessened as a result. I doubt they will be, though, because the OGRE is the objective, not the beetles.

 

This is why Numenera P&P doesn't give you exp for killing creatures Because the game designers know that if you are rewarded exp for killing them, player feels that most optimal solution is killing them instead of role playing it in any other way. In Numenera its perfectly valid solution to run away, negotiate or deal with creature any way possible that may or may not involve killing.

[Volourn]

"^because the devs decided that killing your way through those beetles and finding the cave and getting past the spiders AND dealing with the ogre was worth [number]XP

Or didn't you read my point about 'delayed reward'?"

 

But, killing the beetles has nothing to do with the cave. Their just random monster on a area map. they have no connection to the ogre. In fact, you may very well be on that map for some non ogre related reason.

 

 

"'Run away from' = deal with the threat

'Sneak past' = deal with the threat"

 

 

Neither of these are 'dealing with the threat'. The threat is still there. Now, negoiating (can't be done with beetles obviously) and killing are dealing with the threat.

 

 

Again, why is the ogre worth xp but not the beetles? Because you were told  by a NPC to talk/kill him? Huh.

 

 

"There are multiple ways to overcome the threats - the game just takes into account that you did it and then awards xp / you get to the cave / piglet-pet / etc"

 

The cave/piglet has NOTHING to do with the beetles.

 

 

Anyways, now my actual dev question is buried. L0L Well done. A serious question now ruin by the 'must do what the npc tell you to do to get rewrad'c rew won.

 

I'll leave it there until the Obsidianites answer it (if they do). It's a fair question.  Why shouldn't the PC be rewarded for overcoming the beetles in a meaningful way that helps them grow their abilities which is what xp is supposed to represent? Hmm..

 

 

"This is why Numenera P&P doesn't give you exp for killing creatures Because the game designers know that if you are rewarded exp for killing them, player feels that most optimal solution is killing them instead of role playing it in any other way."

 

Don't speak for me. You certainly don't speak for me as a player.

Edited August 15, 2014 by Volourn

[BrokenMask]

Well, you ARE basically arguing that the game should give out exp for killing beetles because every other rpg gives exp for killing individual enemies. The thing about "Wouldn't combat with beetles give you "experience" in fighting beetles" thing is... Well, you DO actually get "experience" in fighting beetles considering you get bestiary entry. Anyway, point was that exp systems in any games are rather abstract. Like, for some reason killing thousand rats gives you level up while at same time killing one dragon gives you level up. Its an abstract game system, you can't really claim that it makes sense that after you kill multiple or just one creature, you suddenly get physically and mentally stronger and gain suddenly new abilities. So I don't get it why you are arguing it makes more sense to get exp from killing enemies when exp doesn't really make sense in first place.

Edited August 15, 2014 by BrokenMask

[Stun]

Neither of these are 'dealing with the threat'. The threat is still there.

In fact, if you run away from the beetles, get to the Ogre den, then kill the Ogre and receive the Objective XP reward...what then?

 

Can you claim that the beetles were part of the Quest objective, even though you're still totally free to deal with them AFTER receiving the XP rewards for completing the Objective?

Edited August 15, 2014 by Stun

[Karkarov]

And this is why I asked you how you know that areas will be inaccessible until you deal with those beetles. Because if, for example, the Ogre den IS closed off to you until those beetles are slain, or scared off, or stealthed-past, then that's totally fine. But if not, then we've got a design problem: you were able to bypass the beetle threat without employing ANY skill whatsoever, and therefore, your objective XP rewards should be lessened as a result. I doubt they will be, though, because the OGRE is the objective, not the beetles.

Uh they aren't being clear enough and you are reading too much into it.

 

Basically the idea is the beetles are actually aggressive (red target circle, that's how it was in BG) and will attack you on sight.  So unless you want to stealth your whole party every time you go through there you have to stop and take them out.  I also would not be shocked to find out there is some objective or additional motivation (beyond convenience) for killing them as well.  Like say the beetle shells can be used to make a shield, or some farmer who is pissed about the beetles will pay a bounty for proof of beetle kills.

 

Lastly.... there is no evidence to indicate you can perform an area transition while in combat.

Edited August 15, 2014 by Karkarov

[Panteleimon]

 

Your reward for overcoming the beetles (in this case) threat is that you can access those otherwise inaccessible areas.

(See also: Delayed XP)

I'll ask again. Where are you getting this from? Is that dungeon inaccessible until the beetles are slain? Are you prevented from accessing ANY Area transition on the entire map until you've dealt with the beetle threat?

 

As for delayed XP....will the rewards be less if you run away from the beetles and just make a bee-line to the Ogre den?

You're prevented from getting from one area to the next until you somehow get past the creatures.

 

KILLING the beetles is not the objective, overcoming them is. Maybe you sneak past, maybe you kill them, maybe both, maybe you take the long way. But rewarding you with XP for the whole quest as you see fit rather than inherently rewarding mindless killing machines and farming is the way I go. You get some neat stuff from killing them maybe, and they simply must be fought o get to, say, a treasure stash in the back end of the spider cave. But the stash is the reward, NOT the simple act that you killed the beetles/spiders/whatever.

 

The real challenge here is the conflict between the villagers and the ogre, and the journey to his cave. The beetles are a component.

Edited August 15, 2014 by Panteleimon

[Stun]

You're prevented from getting from one area to the next until you somehow get past the creatures.

This is false and confirmed as such in the video.

 

You're only prevented from *resting* when hostiles are around. But you can still leave the area, or enter the dungeon within the area, while hostiles are still around. Adam clicked on the entrance of one of the ruins and got the scripted event. The option to pick the lock was there but he chose not to do it. he then walked away and.... engaged in more combat.

Edited August 15, 2014 by Stun

[Panteleimon]

 

You're prevented from getting from one area to the next until you somehow get past the creatures.

This is false and confirmed as such in the video.

 

You're only prevented from *resting* when hostiles are around. But you can still leave the area, or enter the dungeon within the area, while hostiles are still around. Adam clicked on the entrance of one of the ruins and got the scripted event. The option to pick the lock was there but he chose not to do it. he then walked away and.... engaged in more combat.

Jeez dude, I'm saying they're an OBSTACLE, not that you literally can't leave one area for the next while 'in combat'. Stop thinking in such gamey terms. Edited August 15, 2014 by Panteleimon

[Stun]

Well, I wouldn't call them an Obstacle when Adam had to actively search for some of them. lol

Edited August 15, 2014 by Stun

[Panteleimon]

Well, I wouldn't call them an Obstacle when Adam had to actively search for some of them. lol

They were pretty in the way considering they were ON the road up north and all along the east side, but you could still get past without wiping out 2/3rds of the local ecosystem. Sounds like a pretty decent balance between "kill kill kill" and...not. At the end of the day it places the emphasis where it belongs, on the quest and journey as a while, not some dang wildlife.

Edited August 15, 2014 by Panteleimon

[Yonjuro]

 

I want to focus on this, because it's false.

 

Running away from encounters specifically designed to challenge your party and (according to you) also designed to justify the "objective XP" that you're gonna get at the end of the quest, is every bit the degenerate behavior that Kill Grinding is. You are literally doing what the developers did not mean for you to do.

 

 

 This is a fair point. Let me me rephrase this a bit. Objective XP is supposed to make the objective of having fun and the objective of in-game rewards line up as closely as possible.  It will be useful to give feedback to the devs during the beta test if the fun objective function is out of whack with the XP rewards objective function.

 

 The intent of not including kill XP is to prevent (unfun) things like grinding. An unintended consequence could be to make a game that rewards you for running away as often as possible (by 'rewards' I mean that you might be better off running than, say, using up a limited resource such as camping supplies) which, one could argue, might not be the most fun way to play (the Brave Sir Robin method of adventuring).

 

 It is a real issue, let's not turn it into a oneupmanshipfest and lose the point.

[Silent Winter]

 

'Run away from' = deal with the threat

I want to focus on this, because it's false.

 

Running away from encounters specifically designed to challenge your party and (according to you) also designed to justify the "objective XP" that you're gonna get at the end of the quest, is every bit the degenerate behavior that Kill Grinding is. You are literally doing what the developers did not mean for you to do.

 

And this is why I asked you how you know that areas will be inaccessible until you deal with those beetles. Because if, for example, the Ogre den IS closed off to you until those beetles are slain, or scared off, or stealthed-past, then that's totally fine. But if not, then we've got a design problem: you were able to bypass the beetle threat without employing ANY skill whatsoever, and therefore, your objective XP rewards should be lessened as a result. I doubt they will be, though, because the OGRE is the objective, not the beetles.

 

You seem to use 'reward' as only a mechanical term, I'm using it to literally mean you can get to the cave but you must go through the beetles to get there.

Beeltes are in the way - sneaking past them is maybe an option - in which case it's rewarded the same way.

'run away from' would involve getting all those disengagement attacks and is therefore risky - but the threat is out of the way and therefore 'dealt with' from the purposes of no longer being a threat - until you want to run past them again on the way back (and again - this involves your entire party being faster than the enemy, not sure that's right here) (and the enemy not following you through area transitions like the cave entrance).

Your concern of degenerate behaviour is valid, and the devs should take note that it shouldn't be possible to simply run around all enemies while laughing - I'm pretty sure that once you're within a certain distance, they'll be able to close and engage you - giving the aforementioned disengagement attacks if you run - one dead fighter, 2 dead wizards, whatever)

 

But, killing the beetles has nothing to do with the cave. Their just random monster on a area map. they have no connection to the ogre. In fact, you may very well be on that map for some non ogre related reason.

Those beetles are on the way to the cave - they are in the way of exploring the map - if you don't want to explore the map, go to another area.

The beetles needn't be mechanically tied to the cave or the ogre in order to constitute a step on the way.

Methinks that's where you're misunderstanding (or simply not accepting) the point - things needn't be mechanically bound in order to be a part of the whole.

 

 

"'Run away from' = deal with the threat

'Sneak past' = deal with the threat"

 

 

Neither of these are 'dealing with the threat'. The threat is still there. Now, negoiating (can't be done with beetles obviously) and killing are dealing with the threat.

 

 

Again, why is the ogre worth xp but not the beetles? Because you were told  by a NPC to talk/kill him? Huh.

 

 

"There are multiple ways to overcome the threats - the game just takes into account that you did it anzd then awards xp / you get to the cave / piglet-pet / etc"

 

The cave/piglet has NOTHING to do with the beetles.

 

 

As I said 'deal with the threat' can be understood to simply mean 'remove the threat from your party or remove your party from the threat'

That's how I mean it and that's the point I'm making - there are risks and rewards with the different solutions - the risk of leaving the beetles alive is that they're still there next time you traverse the area.

 

"why is the ogre worth xp but not the beetles? Because you were told  by a NPC to talk/kill him? Huh."

You can tackle the ogre without getting the quest from someone, so no.  It's worth xp to deal with the whole objective.  The ogre is at the back of a spider cave through an area full of beetles - go the whole hog and get the xp, or leave an area half-uncovered and accept that you may get nothing for it.

 

As to the 3rd point - piglet is result of cave - cave is beyond beetles

 

 

 

 

Neither of these are 'dealing with the threat'. The threat is still there.

In fact, if you run away from the beetles, get to the Ogre den, then kill the Ogre and receive the Objective XP reward...what then?

 

Can you claim that the beetles were part of the Quest objective, even though you're still totally free to deal with them AFTER receiving the XP rewards for completing the Objective?

Given that I consider sneaking past them to be 'dealt with' then yes, I can claim that.  Sneaking past them again to report to the farmer (IF you're on the quest) is antoher part of that objective.

If you want to kill them 2nd time then that's an option too.

Again - needn't be mechanically bound to be part of an obstacle to an objective.

 

Well, I wouldn't call them an Obstacle when Adam had to actively search for some of them. lol

SOME of them, yes - so depending on how careful you are, you may not pull all the beeltes on your way to the cave - great tactics - (of course, exploring the rest of the area involves scouting past/killing/using the mystical potion of beeltes'bane you found in the ruin on/etc the beetles.).

So the beetles aren't all part of the objective of the cave - but they are part of the various objectives in the area.

Edited August 15, 2014 by Silent Winter

[Stun]

 

Well, I wouldn't call them an Obstacle when Adam had to actively search for some of them. lol

They were pretty in the way considering they were ON the road up north and all along the east side, but you could still get past without wiping out 2/3rds of the local ecosystem. Sounds like a pretty decent balance between "kill kill kill" and...not. At the end of the day it places the emphasis where it belongs, on the quest and journey as a while, not some dang wildlife.

 

He missed them the first time. Period. Something designed to be an obstacle (your words) fails to be one when it's so easily missed. (not avoided. MISSED)

 

And we weren't discussing the balance between "Kill kill, Kill" and "pleasant stroll through the forest".

Edited August 15, 2014 by Stun

[ManifestedISO]

 

Am I the only one that occasionaly tries to control the cursor while watching these videos in fullscreen?

So it's not just me then

 

 

I probably did it three times just in regular window mode. Does this mean I have control issues or simply exceptional coordination.   

[BrokenMask]

Wasn't Adam playing on easy setting anyway?

I mean, haven't they stated that they have different enemy placements of different difficulties?

[Stun]

The beetles needn't be mechanically tied to the cave or the ogre in order to constitute a step on the way.

WTF! If you're going to falsely claim that they're part of the Objective that you're getting XP for then YES, they in fact MUST be mechanically tied to the objective. otherwise, you're not getting XP for dealing with them. Edited August 15, 2014 by Stun

[Sensuki]

https://twitter.com/jesawyer/status/499854395463712768

 

seeing a lot of TPKs at the #pillarsofeternity booth on the show floor #yikes

I'm going to guess a large part of this is due to auto-attack not working properly. The casual player would not handle the extra micromanagement that requires.

[ManifestedISO]

How does he "see" them ... literally, or some kind of data collection.

 

Is that what those three screens are showing in the pic, party wipes. 

Edited August 15, 2014 by ManifestedISO

[Silent Winter]

 

The beetles needn't be mechanically tied to the cave or the ogre in order to constitute a step on the way.

WTF! If you're going to falsely claim that they're part of the Objective that you're getting XP for then YES, they in fact MUST be mechanically tied to the objective. otherwise, you're not getting XP for dealing with them.

I think we just view the world differently - you must overcome the beetles in some way to get to the cave - for me that constitutes a step on the path and thus is part of the objective.  It needn't be mechanically so.  You can deal with many (not all) threats in different ways, including killing and stealthing, but to get to the xp, you must overcome it.

'Fun' is also part of the objective - it needn't be awarded as an in-game achievement.

 

Also: "If you're going to falsely claim" - presupposing it's false doesn't support your point.  I'm not trying to falsely claim anything - I'm claiming it.

 

But I can see we simply look at the terms 'objective' and 'reward' in different ways - so be it.  The game's got quest-xp, not kill-xp so it doesn't really matter.

[Sensuki]

How does he "see" them ... literally, or some kind of data collection.

 

Is that what those three screens are showing in the pic, party wipes.

He's standing there watching. The three screens are people that haven't loaded the game yet I think.

[Volourn]

" The intent of not including kill XP is to prevent (unfun) things like grinding. "

 

While I'm not a big fan of grinding for grinding sake this idea that 'grinding' in of itself is 'unfun is bogus. It's super bogus when entire games are made where 'grinding' is the entirety of the game and those games ar epopular and the player base finds it fun.

 

*cough* Diablo series *cough*

 

I'm no huge Diablo series fan. Played 1 and enjoyed it well enoguh. Have not played part 2 or 3.

 

So, you just bashed  tons of players who enjoyed and had fun with Diablo, IWD,  and a host of other games. LMAO

 

Anyways, you still haven't clarified - how is killing the ogre worth xp but not the beetles? because a NPC tells you to kill him. Come on.

[BrokenMask]

" The intent of not including kill XP is to prevent (unfun) things like grinding. "

 

While I'm not a big fan of grinding for grinding sake this idea that 'grinding' in of itself is 'unfun is bogus. It's super bogus when entire games are made where 'grinding' is the entirety of the game and those games ar epopular and the player base finds it fun.

 

*cough* Diablo series *cough*

 

I'm no huge Diablo series fan. Played 1 and enjoyed it well enoguh. Have not played part 2 or 3.

 

So, you just bashed  tons of players who enjoyed and had fun with Diablo, IWD,  and a host of other games. LMAO

 

Anyways, you still haven't clarified - how is killing the ogre worth xp but not the beetles? because a NPC tells you to kill him. Come on.

 

Because killing ogre is goal of quest and quest wasn't about killing beetles.

 

After all, you don't HAVE to kill the beetles to kill the ogre.

 

Besides, you'd probably have gotten same amount of exp if instead of killing ogre you had told him to go away. Goal is to just get rid of Ogre in some way so they won't bother the village.

Edited August 15, 2014 by BrokenMask