The Official Romance Thread

[Blarghagh]

Actually, didn't BG2 already fix that by halting romance progression while in dungeons? I know the progression pretty much stopped in The Underdark.

[TMZuk]

 

 

2. You know what? Trained killers do fall in love with eachother. Shocking isn't it?

While traversing Ancient haunted crypts filled with Flesh rotting Ghasts? (Ie. the example of mine that you're attempting to counter)? Aaah. No they don't. Except maybe in poorly written Bioware fantasies.

 

 

You see the this is where the argument " people on an adventure to save the world wouldn't think about Romance" is utterly false and ridiculous

 

This is EXACTLY where Romance would flourish, you can try position other anti-Romance perspectives but not this one

 

 

If a group of people are on some epic quest to defeat some diabolical demi-god, and they know everyday could be there last, they spend time around a campfire and they are prepared to die for each other and they are attracted to each other  why wouldn't Romance happen? Romance could be a expression of many different types of  emotional states

 

There are numerous cases that people can give where Romance has happened where people face death. I had a teacher at school who didn't know his father as his mother fell pregnant  in the dark during the Blitzkrieg in London during WW2 while they hiding in bomb shelter

 

This I do agree with.

 

However, this is exactly what Bioware romances is not. They are contrived and feels out of place. They aren't integrated into the storyline. They feel like a stalker mini-game, artificially added to the game. The Morrigan romance in DA:O was well written and was a natural part of the game. Zevran was amusing when I played as a female warden. All the rest of the "romances" in DA:O, in Mass Effect, Mass Effect 2 and Mass Effect 3, not to mention the travesty of a game that was DA2, made my toes cringe.

 

So if Josh Sawyer want to make something better than that, I applaud it. And if it's between the typical Bioware romance and no romance, I'll take the no romance option any day.

[ashtonw]

Actually, didn't BG2 already fix that by halting romance progression while in dungeons? I know the progression pretty much stopped in The Underdark.

 

iirc your companions won't try to romance you in a dungeon, but for some reason Firkraag's bedroom is not included in the list, and since his dungeon is so long, chances are good that your SO will try to get romantic as soon as you enter it.

[Blarghagh]

I've never noticed that, but just the idea of it made my day.

[BruceVC]

Actually, didn't BG2 already fix that by halting romance progression while in dungeons? I know the progression pretty much stopped in The Underdark.

 

 

 

 

 

2. You know what? Trained killers do fall in love with eachother. Shocking isn't it?

While traversing Ancient haunted crypts filled with Flesh rotting Ghasts? (Ie. the example of mine that you're attempting to counter)? Aaah. No they don't. Except maybe in poorly written Bioware fantasies.

 

 

 

This I do agree with.

 

However, this is exactly what Bioware romances is not. They are contrived and feels out of place. They aren't integrated into the storyline. They feel like a stalker mini-game, artificially added to the game. The Morrigan romance in DA:O was well written and was a natural part of the game. Zevran was amusing when I played as a female warden. All the rest of the "romances" in DA:O, in Mass Effect, Mass Effect 2 and Mass Effect 3, not to mention the travesty of a game that was DA2, made my toes cringe.

 

So if Josh Sawyer want to make something better than that, I applaud it. And if it's between the typical Bioware romance and no romance, I'll take the no romance option any day.

 

 

You guys have  made me think about another Romance arc that will add to the realism of a Romance implementation

 

The basis of this Romance idea is you can't Romance someone if they haven't been in your party a while because how would feelings develop realistically if they haven't  developed over time, so for example if you keep changing party characters it would be hard to build Romance with new members

 

But to add to this your chance of Romance would increase if the party faces certain epic challengers together. So take Firkraag, at the end of the battle when the party is recovering and resting in a Tavern or around a campfire someone that you have been particularly friendly with  through previous dialog choices, like Viconia, would initiate a discussion with comments like "facing that Dragon made me realize what is important to me...life is too short to not be happy " ( obviously I'm not a writer so this is just an example  ) , but the point is the Romance only starts if she is in the party a while and you have faced  certain death before

 

I believe this would make the Romance less contrived and definitely more believable. And this seems to be one of the issues people have with Romance, previous implementations are just not  believable?

Edited August 3, 2014 by BruceVC

[Mannock]

 

Well, PoE is not part of this discussion anyway, since even if it WAS a pure dungeon crawler, it's still a Kickstarted game who's developers do not have the resources to make into a Dungeon Crawler-Soap Opera hybrid.

 While traversing Ancient haunted crypts filled with Flesh rotting Ghasts? (Ie. the example of mine that you're attempting to counter)? Aaah. No they don't. Except maybe in poorly written Bioware fantasies.

 

 

You can make up the most vile and horrible situation you could ever think of, it won't matter.

 

People fall in love all, feel sexual attraction, etc, all the time, even during horrible circumstances. So if a writer wishes to write a romance, it's fully possible to do so in any RPG imaginable.

 

It doesn't matter that you find them horrible, that's just your subjective perspective, which matters as much as my subjective perspective (or anyone elses for that matter).

[Stun]

You can make up the most vile and horrible situation you could ever think of, it won't matter.

Obviously. Promancers aren't very picky.

[BruceVC]

 

You can make up the most vile and horrible situation you could ever think of, it won't matter.

Obviously. Promancers aren't very picky.

 

 

Well if its any consolation you guys have definitely convinced me of a more realistic way that Romance should happen, like the example I gave. I actually am going to start actively advocating more realistic Romance implementations in future. So this should be progress for a someone like you who appears to not like or want Romance

[redneckdevil]

 

You had to say things that they agreed with, do things they agreed with, etc etc. I havent found one yet that i could roleplay someone with an opposing view point and actions without getting rejected.

Don't get me wrong, I understand wanting to shake things up a bit because the current format of romances doesn't really work. But... NPCs are supposed to be their own person. Is it really such a problem that they might not like you?

I have no problem whats so ever them not liking me, i have a problem of there only being ONE "way" or "type" to romance said person. Theres people today that fall for people they thought was disqusting, mean, to nice, a pushover, etc etc (aka being someone totally different than they usually like). You CAN'T be that person they usually dont like or enjoy and have them fall in love with you.

Romance in games is very STATIC and thats my problem with it. Theres no flexiblity out of it (besides spamming gifts or something totally unrelated)

[Sylvanpyxie]

 

 

Romance in games is very STATIC and thats my problem with it. Theres no flexiblity out of it

That's fair enough, but the entire "opposites attract" troupe is something I disagree with in certain video games. The environment that classic adventurers are in wouldn't exactly foster such a relationship. Player Characters are often dealing with major political story lines and life or death scenarios, if they are in disagreement with their party is it a much larger issue.

 

Minor disagreements certainly wouldn't be a problem, but when you have a party full of religious fanatics and decide that you're going to defile a sacred temple to one of their Gods then poop will hit the fan.

 

For the record, I have no problem with approaching romance from a different angle. There are just some things that I personally don't think will work in the environment of a Player Character.

[redneckdevil]

I will agree i didnt give the best example but ive only seen so far thats its static. And "fullon railroading" isnt inspiring or roleplaying goodness like people proclaim when u have tons of options of completing or doing quest objectives, factions, companions, etc with different ways and options but romances u have to do or say this or it doesnt happen.

now only one romance i can think of in my 20some years of gaming that was optional and wasnt forced upon you and that one i can see people saying it added another level of roleplaying because while it was optional and wasnt forced upon, it swayed the main story in different directions.

[Sylvanpyxie]

Yes, the recent history of romances certainly does not inspire.

[Mangonel]

I'd say what's missing from a lot of game romances is tension. There is never any will-they won't-they or sexual tension between characters at all. It's generally either tensionless lovey-dovey or more sex than you can shake your stick at and it is designed so players can make it happen via simple choice of dialogue (I'm going to pick the nice conversation option because that'll get me laid). If someone could figure out a way to generate some proper tension in a game romance I'm sure they would be much better.

 

I think part of the problem RPG's lack tension is we, as the PC know what our own goals are so that removes a source of tension from the relationship. Perhaps a way to reintroduce this would be to have Love Interests act in a manner that would test PC commitment?

 

The writing would have to get creative to put the LI in a situation to act out-of-character enough to shake the PC's opinion though.

[Fluffle]

 

I think part of the problem RPG's lack tension is we, as the PC know what our own goals are so that removes a source of tension from the relationship. Perhaps a way to reintroduce this would be to have Love Interests act in a manner that would test PC commitment?

 

 

In a way this does happen in Dragon Age 2.

In no way do I want to promote the romances of Dragon Age 2 but this one point is included there, where your commitment to Anders is tested at that one time.

 

Anders loves you but at the same time he uses you to further his goals, up to the point where you can unknowingly help him in blowing up the church.

 

You can forgive him for that.

You can kill him for that.

Or if "rivalmanced" you can convince him to commit suicide.

[BruceVC]

 

 

I think part of the problem RPG's lack tension is we, as the PC know what our own goals are so that removes a source of tension from the relationship. Perhaps a way to reintroduce this would be to have Love Interests act in a manner that would test PC commitment?

 

 

In a way this does happen in Dragon Age 2.

In no way do I want to promote the romances of Dragon Age 2 but this one point is included there, where your commitment to Anders is tested at that one time.

 

Anders loves you but at the same time he uses you to further his goals, up to the point where you can unknowingly help him in blowing up the church.

 

You can forgive him for that.

You can kill him for that.

Or if "rivalmanced" you can convince him to commit suicide.

 

 

Also the betrayal by Isabella when the Desire Demon seduces her, you can choose to forgive her or not. I obviously forgave her

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Anders loves you but at the same time he uses you to further his goals, up to the point where you can unknowingly help him in blowing up the church.

 

You can forgive him for that.

You can kill him for that.

Or if "rivalmanced" you can convince him to commit suicide.

 

Nothing like realism in a game. roflmao.

[BruceVC]

 

Anders loves you but at the same time he uses you to further his goals, up to the point where you can unknowingly help him in blowing up the church.

 

You can forgive him for that.

You can kill him for that.

Or if "rivalmanced" you can convince him to commit suicide.

 

Nothing like realism in a game. roflmao.

 

 

I'm not with you, don't you think love and betrayal  can cause people to react excessively?

[Hiro Protagonist II]

I'm not with you, don't you think love and betrayal  can cause people to react excessively?

 

It's a computer game. You have 3 options, One option he stays alive, the other two he dies. That's not realism. You wouldn't kill a person in real life or convince someone to commit suicide. Or would you Bruce?

Edited August 4, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Blarghagh]

Just breaking up is not an option? You mean my choice is forgiveness or death?

 

... I'll have the chicken then.

[Darkpriest]

 

Brothels are everywhere and having a good F**** after an adventure gives you more then having a headache or a depression why your silly henchman is angry with your cooking skills (oh dear it doesnt tastes like on da first date...you dont LOVE me anymore)... it´s ridicolous to compare a brothel (everyone should visit one in their life) and a romance!

 

I guess I fail to see the appeal of going to a video game brothel to have video game sex.  A romance is at least a RPing thing.

 

 

the only difference i see is that in so called romance you hit 3 lines of text while in brothel you hit 1 line of text with payment. result is exactly the same, i.e. virtual banging scene... and that's what people are after, if believing the romance direction bioware went for (oh, you must be sure that in brothels you can bang freaks to make it more appealing)

[BruceVC]

 

I'm not with you, don't you think love and betrayal  can cause people to react excessively?

 

It's a computer game. You have 3 options, One option he stays alive, the other two he dies. That's not realism. You wouldn't kill a person in real life or convince someone to commit suicide. Or would you Bruce?

 

 

 

Just breaking up is not an option? You mean my choice is forgiveness or death?

 

... I'll have the chicken then.

 

Okay I see the point you boys are making, I suppose it depends on what culture you live in. We know for a fact that even in our modern age prearranged marriages and honour killings exist. So for some people the choices in DA 2 may not seem that absurd. And it doesn't mean I support this but people getting killed because of scorned love does happen

Edited August 4, 2014 by BruceVC

[Blarghagh]

That might have been relevant if it wasn't the player making the choice.

[Doppelschwert]

Okay I see the point you boys are making, I suppose it depends on what culture you live in. We know for a fact that even in our modern age prearranged marriages and honour killings exist. So for some people the choices in DA 2 may not seem that absurd. And it doesn't mean I support this but people getting killed because of scorned love does happen

 

 

Really? That's your argument?

 

I'm pretty sure the main demographic for video games is central europe, north-america and australia. I don't know of any culture there where prearranged marriages or honour killings are part of.

 

Also, what's up with the assumption that every party member should be single in the first place?

If you want your realism in a medieval world and not just some 20th century with swords and magic, given the life expectancy, most people are probably married by the time they join your party, especially if they are usually not a full time adventurer.

 

I argue that in most settings it's probably more logical and realistic if your party members are married, so romance makes no sense. Feel free to bring some counterarguments.

[Fluffle]

Okay guys, I had to refresh my memories.

Those options I presetened were not all of them. Here is the excerpt from the wiki.

 

"Anders sits on a crate and talks facing away while he awaits Hawke's judgement:

• If Anders is Hawke's rival, he says that Vengeance took him over and expresses deep regret for his actions. He does not trust himself to control Vengeance any longer and begs Hawke to kill him "before there is nothing left of [him]". Hawke can tell Anders that they forgive him if the amount of rivalry is high enough.
• If Anders is Hawke's friend, he insists that the decision was his own as he and Justice are one now. He tells Hawke that he wanted to make Thedas see the injustice of the Circle and thus to change the world. Anders still wishes to be killed, seeing it as bringing justice to those who were sacrificed for his cause. If the amount of friendship is high enough, Hawke can tell Anders that they might have understood if he'd only told them.

Hawke has the following options:

• Whoever the Champion has chosen to support, Hawke can kill Anders by stabbing him in the back.
• If Anders is spared, Sebastian leaves the party, vowing to return to Starkhaven and build an army to attack Kirkwall and avenge Grand Cleric Elthina.
  • If Hawke sides with the templars then allows Anders to walk away, he later confronts Hawke inside the Gallows and all dialogue options lead to Hawke having to kill him in combat.
  • Anders maintains a firm conviction in his cause and refuses to turn against the mages, unless Hawke is his 100% rival and has previously spoken to him. If Hawke persuades him to atone for what he has done by helping the templars, he is crushed and hints at wishing to take his own life after the final battle if he is not killed first. A romanced Anders will exchange a final kiss with Hawke if the star option is chosen.
  • If Hawke supports the mages then tells Anders to leave, he is later encountered again inside the Gallows, wanting to be a part of the battle. If his aid is accepted, he rejoins the party. If it is rejected, he wishes Hawke victory and leaves permanently.
  • If Hawke asks Anders to defend the mages, he is surprised by Hawke allowing him to stay in addition to his life, but eagerly agrees to fight the templars; however, he admits that it is worse than he thought it would be. If he is in romance with Hawke, he offers Hawke to come on the run with him as a fugitive after the final battle."

 

And yes there is the option of breaking up with Anders beforehand.

[Fluffle]

How many options do you wish until you can call a romance "realistic" ?

 

And do other non-romance situations in roleplaying games have to live up to the same realism standards

that some would like to see in romances?

 

Does realism in romances mean that there must be so many options available that

the amount of programming so many options means too much effort for the developers in the first place?

 

If realism is a reason for or against inclusion of romances should we not check

if we should include or exclude other non-romantic situations from a game based on realism standards?