Excellent read on more progressive games

[Blarghagh]

Hah, I missed this backhand   Nicely couched too.

 

 

Most people here don't seem to have that luxury. Not a judgement, not saying people here don't know women or "can't get a girl" or whatnot

 

 

 

Not a backhand at all, I was sincere in that I'm not saying that. Lotsa married people here. It says a lot about your cynicism that you decided to take it otherwise and that makes me take your claims about BruceVC acting with a grain of salt as it seems more your filter than anything else. I added it simply because "some people don't have that luxury" made it seem like that backhand.

[Orogun01]

 

Monte, why do I get the feeling that I will one day read about you on the news?

 

Why do you say that? 

 

Is like your avatar might turn awfully prophetic.

[HoonDing]

btw where is oby?

[BruceVC]

 

 

Monte, why do I get the feeling that I will one day read about you on the news?

 

Why do you say that? 

 

Is like your avatar might turn awfully prophetic.

 

 

Falling Down is one of my best movies of all time. I have seen it about 5-6 times. Every scene is brilliant, like the part in the burger take-way ... "can anyone tell me what is wrong with this burger"... and that kid puts his hand up ..

[Malcador]

That's what I thought, you can't give me a logical  and relevant answer to why my posting style is an act. And I don't fault you for this because its not true

 

And the Ukrainian thread is a terrible justification for me being an act, considering all the dozens of other discussions I have participated in. I would argue my perspective is more or less consistent, yes I am wrong sometimes but I generally don't flip-flop on issues like social justice

 

You asked why as in your goal in doing it not the reason I think it is one - read your last line. Why I think it is one is just from reading your posts about your perversions with game romances, or Ukraine or the lazy social justice awareness routine. Fine and all, and it is amusing.

 

Not a backhand at all, I was sincere in that I'm not saying that. Lotsa married people here. It says a lot about your cynicism that you decided to take it otherwise and that makes me take your claims about BruceVC acting with a grain of salt as it seems more your filter than anything else. I added it simply because "some people don't have that luxury" made it seem like that backhand.

Well I highly doubt you'd take my claims about Bruce seriously before, regardless of my cynicism (why do people always refer to that in a negative way, heh). But when people advertise they're not trying to do something, in my experience, they are and are just allowing themselves some wiggle room for retreat. Was a funny backhand anyway, heh.

Edited June 30, 2014 by Malcador

[Monte Carlo]

I live in England. If I ever go postal I'll be armed with a banana and maybe a sandwich.

[Malcador]

Not an umbrella ?

[Monte Carlo]

Someone might lose an eye. I might deploy a facetious tone though, if I get really angry.

[Sofaking]

Well these comments have certainly been much more interesting then the article.

 

One question that always kind of pops up in the back of my head when these discussions about race and gender in video games comes up is, where are the female game developers? I could understand the argument about "white dudes in a conference room" and how it relates to a repression of female characters when it comes to big budget titles. But where are the female indy game developers? With the sucess of indy games like Minecraft, Super Meat Boy, Braid, Fez etc. We're living in a time where people are eliminating the white suits and bypassing the normal development system. Literally the only game I can think of is Journey. But even that hasn't satisfied what people want beacuse ultimatley the characters are genderless.

 

The reason this irks me so is because I constantly see people turn to the established developers and cry "where are the strong females?" Well, I am asking the same question, but I ask the female gaming community not the establishment. With the way the market is now, with the tools like Steam Greenlight and Kickstarter, the tools are out there and avaliable. Could this game be sucessfully markeded without just being sold as a "girrrrl gamerz!" game? I look at fantastic story driven games like Gone Home, which had a wonderful atmosphere and story and wonder, "why couldn't this have been done by a woman?"

 

Let's face it, most writers and content producers creat characters which they can easily self identify with. I also read a blog, Should a Black Writer Write White Characters?

 in which an aspiring black writer asks the question, "Do I make the character black because I’m black?" and "Is it wrong that I see the main character as white?" I think these questions sort of hit on why we mostly see white male characters in games, they are developed by white male creators. The post brings advice from author Marita Golden, she says: to simply "tell the story you want to tell." Start from there, and then if the character turns out have a racial identity that isn't yours, go with it.

 

And I think that this is the sentiment we, as gamers, need to take more into consideration. There is a reason women are so often poorly represented in video games, that is because it can be difficult for men to wirte them well. And when you ask a content creator to change the story they want to tell in order to fit your expectations you're going to get a poor product. I think creators should be free to write characters of any culture they want to if that is where their story naturally flows. They should not feel pressured to stay within their own culture nor should the be pressured to wirte outside of it in order to avoid the lable "oppressor" or not "progressive."

 

"We need to be the change we wish to see in the world." - Mahatma Gandhi

 

But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[Volourn]

Eh. I loved the Gromnir 'cameo' though I wouldn't call it a cameo since he had a pretty sizeable role considering he was running an entire town. And, the battle was fun and the character was well done. He was your enemy but he wasn't neccessarily flat out evil (like all the other Bhaalspawn you had to fight as the 'bosses').

 

Lanfear's was a cameo which it did it thing along with cameos of two BG characters.

 

And, Draconis was  a very solid combat encounter and the character had decent perosnality considering you only have one convo with him.

[Orogun01]

@SofaKing

 

I would had just told her to grow a pair and stop giving a fluffing **** about what people think. Guess that's why I'm not going to be published....ever.

[AwesomeOcelot]

Journey wasn't made by a female developer, producers aren't designers or content creators. Portal on the other hand is an indie game with a female developer, Kim Swift.

 

For games like Super Meat Boy, Braid, Fez, Quacamelee, World of Goo, Castle Crashers, Dust: An Elysian Tail, Limbo, FTL, Minecraft... some of these games were designed by one person with contracted art/sound assets and that requires a programmer that's going to build an engine, the others are small groups (2 or 3 people) of geeky friends including a programmer. While there's a lack of female programmers, especially ones capable of writing game engines, the only reason why there's no more female artists and designers making indie games is that they're not forming the social connections needed, and many of the artists of the mentioned games grew up loving games and dreaming of designing their own, which were designed and played primarily by other males.

 

In larger studios roles might be significantly more distanced from games, so concept artists, composers, producers, musicians, they're important to the development of the game but they're doing jobs that might not be significantly different to work on other media.

 

This isn't unique to games, there's lots of creative activities that are very one gender dominated, people have groups a bunch of them into what's called the "feminine arts". Even if a male would be very good and interested in one of those, they're not necessarily going to have the social connections or feel comfortable doing it, it's not necessarily even going to be considered by them. Things like that can change significantly, there have been periods where significant portions of males wore make-up for instance, that would mean some of them acquiring the skills and enjoying the art of it.

[Calax]

Slightly off topic, but if we get what Bruce etc want and have equal representation of genders among protagonists... would they object to antagonists being similar?

 

Or are we saying that it's A-OK to have a female protagonist mass murdering the male population of a universe, but god forbid a female model be used in a "mook" capacity?

[Volourn]

BIO's done that. Just like their protagnists have been male and female. I'm sure this is true for other companies too.

[Calax]

True, but I was more referring to something like is referenced in the OP's article. A Generic Hero Person who's rescuing the Generic Love Interest from the hordes of Evildoers.

 

So Female soldiers in most shooters.

 

Consider Last of Us. A game that generally is considered good about gender politics. The only women who are "enemies" are when they're not considered "human" anymore.

[BruceVC]

True, but I was more referring to something like is referenced in the OP's article. A Generic Hero Person who's rescuing the Generic Love Interest from the hordes of Evildoers.

 

So Female soldiers in most shooters.

 

Consider Last of Us. A game that generally is considered good about gender politics. The only women who are "enemies" are when they're not considered "human" anymore.

Good question actually but I have played many games that have a female antagonist. Like Dungeon Siege 3?

 

Or NWN2 with that lady sorcerer who is a member of the Host Tower of the Arcane. What about any game that features Drow and there matriarchal society?

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Slightly off topic, but if we get what Bruce etc want and have equal representation of genders among protagonists... would they object to antagonists being similar?

 

IWD2 did it with both a male and female antagonist in the one game with the end battle. Can't get more equal than that.

[Volourn]

Yeah, but they weren't human. They were half DEMONS (or was it devils)? L0L

[Calax]

I'm not saying an antogonist boss-style character... I mean on the most basic level, generic enemies that you usually plow through by the hundreds/thousands during the course of a game.

[BruceVC]

I'm not saying an antogonist boss-style character... I mean on the most basic level, generic enemies that you usually plow through by the hundreds/thousands during the course of a game.

 

Oh..okay

 

Its actually an interesting point. Personally I probably would have  an issue going into a room and killing hundreds of women. And reason is I know about the prevalence of violence against women and  children that exists in RL. I wouldn't be able to separate that from the fact its just a game

Edited July 2, 2014 by BruceVC

[Chilloutman]

 

I'm not saying an antogonist boss-style character... I mean on the most basic level, generic enemies that you usually plow through by the hundreds/thousands during the course of a game.

 

Oh..okay

 

Its actually an interesting point. Personally I probably would have  an issue going into a room and killing hundreds of women. And reason is I know about the prevalence of violence against women and  children that exists in RL. I wouldn't be able to separate that from the fact its just a game

 

 

BOOOO misogyny! They are equal, slay them all!

[Sofaking]

I'm not saying an antogonist boss-style character... I mean on the most basic level, generic enemies that you usually plow through by the hundreds/thousands during the course of a game.

 

MGS4 had the FROGS, does that count?

[BruceVC]

 

I'm not saying an antogonist boss-style character... I mean on the most basic level, generic enemies that you usually plow through by the hundreds/thousands during the course of a game.

 

MGS4 had the FROGS, does that count?

 

 

Sofa I wanted to say earlier how are you enjoying being active on these forums? I know you come from the old days of BSN\Black Isle forums but its good to see your perspective and the fact that you do contribute towards certain topics

 

I am enjoying your views

 

I a m

[Sofaking]

 

 

 

 

I'm not saying an antogonist boss-style character... I mean on the most basic level, generic enemies that you usually plow through by the hundreds/thousands during the course of a game.

 

MGS4 had the FROGS, does that count?

 

 

Sofa I wanted to say earlier how are you enjoying being active on these forums? I know you come from the old days of BSN\Black Isle forums but its good to see your perspective and the fact that you do contribute towards certain topics

 

I am enjoying your views

 

I a m

 

 

Oh hey, thanks. It's nice, an interesting crowd here. You guys don't goof off nearly as much though. I just wish more of the people who brought me here were sticking around too...

Edited July 2, 2014 by Sofaking

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

I'm not saying an antogonist boss-style character... I mean on the most basic level, generic enemies that you usually plow through by the hundreds/thousands during the course of a game.

 

MGS4 had the FROGS, does that count?

 

 

Sofa I wanted to say earlier how are you enjoying being active on these forums? I know you come from the old days of BSN\Black Isle forums but its good to see your perspective and the fact that you do contribute towards certain topics

 

I am enjoying your views

 

I a m

 

 

Oh hey, thanks. It's nice, an interesting crowd here. You guys don't goof off nearly as much though. I just wish more of the people who brought me here were sticking around too...

 

 

Yeah, I wasn't around in those days but from what you guys told me we debate more seriously and there is less of a "family vibe"

 

I don't think its an indictment on any one person its just how the Internet has changed as we have so many choices and places where we can discuss topics there is less need to look for that kinship or connections that existed back in the older days of BSN