Excellent read on more progressive games

[Gromnir]

 

 

To be fair, the character they included as you was a paranoid dictator. Just sayin'.

actually, we had assumed we would be included as a flatulent xvart or somesuch. the fact that we were included as a "paranoid" dictator who were proven ultimately correct, were far better treatment than we expected.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps amentep were a mod from time to time. might be best to ask him if there were a biowarian or black isle directive to stifle openly homosexual posters.

I kinda think that Dave was trolling you when he quoted you instead with "HAH! Good Fun!"

 

and making it a half-orc... but again, it turned out better than we expected. dave had emailed to warn us that they were intending on including Gromnir in bg2. our response was, "do your worst." a mini-boss character in tob with voice-over who were tragically given the Cassandra role? far, Far better than expectations.  

 

actual, it woulda' been in biowarian best interest to have simple used Gromnir as comic relief. shoulda' realized that boards would react poorly to significant cameos.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Leferd]

I remember when Dave actually posted publicly that he wanted to use you. He was cackling with evil glee.

[Valmy]

 

Bruce, by your own admission you like frequenting strip joints and salivating over digital RPG babes.

 

OTOH when it comes to White Knighting you are the most insufferable bore, a sort of tireless missionary for moribund political correctness. Can you explain the ying and yang of these two positions? Are they linked?

If I had to take a guess, Bruce is using SJWing as an attempt to attract women. Wouldn't do that myself, but sometimes you have to work with what you've got.

 

 

Around here?  I have to question his tactics.

[BruceVC]

I wonder if this article would have gone over better if someone else posted it.

 

Probably not. The article was pretty badly written and illogical.

 

And that by far  is one of the most insightful posts I've heard, well played

 

I know certain people will automatically dismiss this article just because I posted it. But that's fine, I would rather debate with people who want to debate and to add constructive comments to these types of  issues ( and I don't mean people have to agree with me ) Remember TN you don't raise SJ issues to be popular, its actually the opposite. Because most people don't like to be reminded of the ubiquitous inequality that's exists around us but generally doesn't effect them. But I don't care about popular opinion when it comes to my principles, I raise certain issues because I feel its the right thing to do

 

But saying all that I acknowledge that article isn't excellent, its interesting but I can see where it fails to deliver the message

Edited June 30, 2014 by BruceVC

[TheChris92]

The BSN is already having this discussion and I think I said my peace on that thread at their forums. It's safe to say that I'd like to see more female characters in main character roles, where they are written in context with the story, or rather "written as people/characters first" and not as a feature, or a superficial addition to a story that doesn't connect. In other words, where emphasis was placed on creating a good game, where the main character happened to be female. I feel Naughty Dog has managed to get their priorities straight and also chosen to make games they way the want, disregarding what some would say "sells". Going back to the whole coverart thing of BioShock Infinite & The Last of Us, yikes.

Edited June 30, 2014 by TheChris92

[Valmy]

'Progressive.'

 

I could wax lyrical about the Left's appropriation of certain words, and their mastery of semiotics, but I shant.

 

Suffice it to say I refuse to play their game. They say 'progressive' I say 'Khmer Rouge.' They say 'redistribution' I say 'theft.' They say 'Social Justice' I say 'make everyone equally miserable.'

 

The culture warriors lost the war in 1989, my friends, when their wall came down. But in academia and journalism they're still up there, fighting a brave rearguard action.

 

Wait you think the culture wars ended in 1989?  You think the right wing is winning?  Fascinating.

[Gfted1]

 

Im going with Majek on this one.

 

Ah Gfted1, my stalwart companion in the thankless job of raising SJ issues and encouraging debate on said topics, its like I always say " a SJ discussion is not a SJ discussion until you have added your voice of support to mine " 

 

But...I added my support to Majek. With you its more pointing and laughing.

[Valmy]

 

 

actual, it woulda' been in biowarian best interest to have simple used Gromnir as comic relief. shoulda' realized that boards would react poorly to significant cameos.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Was it really bad?  I had a tough year in school when BG2:TOB came out and was not on the boards much.  Strange, I thought that was a great cameo.  This is why we cannot have nice things.

[BruceVC]

 

'Progressive.'

 

I could wax lyrical about the Left's appropriation of certain words, and their mastery of semiotics, but I shant.

 

Suffice it to say I refuse to play their game. They say 'progressive' I say 'Khmer Rouge.' They say 'redistribution' I say 'theft.' They say 'Social Justice' I say 'make everyone equally miserable.'

 

The culture warriors lost the war in 1989, my friends, when their wall came down. But in academia and journalism they're still up there, fighting a brave rearguard action.

 

Wait you think the culture wars ended in 1989?  You think the right wing is winning?  Fascinating.

 

 

Beware when you ask Monte those types of questions Valmy ....how deep are you prepared to go into the rabbit hole .....

[Amentep]

 

actual, it woulda' been in biowarian best interest to have simple used Gromnir as comic relief. shoulda' realized that boards would react poorly to significant cameos.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Was it really bad?  I had a tough year in school when BG2:TOB came out and was not on the boards much.  Strange, I thought that was a great cameo.  This is why we cannot have nice things.

 

Well I think it was the other cameos (like the Lanfear one) and the people who were all "Why didn't I get a cameo?" that proved to be the problem, as opposed to the Gromnir one.

 

RE: The article - I think the signal gets lost in the noise the author throws around.

[Valmy]

Um what?  Bioware had a contest on the boards and Lanfear, Gromnir, and Draconis (I think?) won.  Them being in the game was hardly some shock.

[Amentep]

Um what?  Bioware had a contest on the boards and Lanfear, Gromnir, and Draconis (I think?) won.  Them being in the game was hardly some shock.

And people still complained about it.*

 

And Lanfear complained about her inclusion in the game (and, IIRC, left the boards) because of the execution.

 

*heck there are people in the PoE forums here complaining that people who pledged more money in the pledge tiers than them got the ability to make stuff in the game and how this was unfair to them, being that they were too poor to pledge more but wanted to create stuff in the game. And that to be fair, Obsidian should also raffle off design space to the poorer forum members.

Edited June 30, 2014 by Amentep

[Malcador]

Well that's the most ridiculous thing I've seen.

[Monte Carlo]

 

'Progressive.'

 

I could wax lyrical about the Left's appropriation of certain words, and their mastery of semiotics, but I shant.

 

Suffice it to say I refuse to play their game. They say 'progressive' I say 'Khmer Rouge.' They say 'redistribution' I say 'theft.' They say 'Social Justice' I say 'make everyone equally miserable.'

 

The culture warriors lost the war in 1989, my friends, when their wall came down. But in academia and journalism they're still up there, fighting a brave rearguard action.

 

Wait you think the culture wars ended in 1989?  You think the right wing is winning?  Fascinating.

 

 

'The Right?' No. Capitalism won the war when Communism collapsed. Their 'progressive' outriders are doing a great job, actually, keeping the flame alive and preventing real progress. Which is letting people figure out their own differences without a narrow, unrepresentative and utopian elite hectoring them about it.

[Monte Carlo]

 

 

 

To be fair, the character they included as you was a paranoid dictator. Just sayin'.

actually, we had assumed we would be included as a flatulent xvart or somesuch. the fact that we were included as a "paranoid" dictator who were proven ultimately correct, were far better treatment than we expected.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps amentep were a mod from time to time. might be best to ask him if there were a biowarian or black isle directive to stifle openly homosexual posters.

I kinda think that Dave was trolling you when he quoted you instead with "HAH! Good Fun!"

 

and making it a half-orc... but again, it turned out better than we expected. dave had emailed to warn us that they were intending on including Gromnir in bg2. our response was, "do your worst." a mini-boss character in tob with voice-over who were tragically given the Cassandra role? far, Far better than expectations.  

 

actual, it woulda' been in biowarian best interest to have simple used Gromnir as comic relief. shoulda' realized that boards would react poorly to significant cameos.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

It was obvious that the brown-nosing fanbots on the Bio boards (as was) would be furious that the disputatious forum contrarian won the honour of a cameo. Personally I think it taught them a lesson.

[Blarghagh]

I wasn't even on forums back then (I was 13) so for the longest time I thought Gromnir was actually patterned after the character, rather than the other way around. The story about Lanfear and her Coran obsession was hilarious when I found out, I swear I thought it was a reference to Wheel of Time.

 

 

I wonder if this article would have gone over better if someone else posted it.

 

Probably not. The article was pretty badly written and illogical.

 

And that by far  is one of the most insightful posts I've heard, well played

 

I know certain people will automatically dismiss this article just because I posted it. But that's fine, I would rather debate with people who want to debate and to add constructive comments to these types of  issues ( and I don't mean people have to agree with me ) Remember TN you don't raise SJ issues to be popular, its actually the opposite. Because most people don't like to be reminded of the ubiquitous inequality that's exists around us but generally doesn't effect them. But I don't care about popular opinion when it comes to my principles, I raise certain issues because I feel its the right thing to do

 

But saying all that I acknowledge that article isn't excellent, its interesting but I can see where it fails to deliver the message

 

 

Trust me, I know. I've raised a fair amount of ruckus about the particular subject of how women are treated in the game industry myself - and I've also learned that my perspective was also skewed in some ways because people here actually responded to the contents of the things I posted rather than just attack me personally. An article I posted by game designer Ernest Adams about how "we" are responsible for how women are treated comes to mind, which I came to realize through that discussion was the finest example of white knighting on the planet, guy may as well have been wearing a sign that said "come hither weak women, for I shallt protect thou" and I was wrong to defend him even if he raised some good points. One of the reasons I like this board is because it challenges me, a lot of people here are smarter than I am and it keeps me on my toes.

 

Which is part of the reason why I think it's unfair that what you post is automatically being dismissed. The article you posted is poorly written but it has some meat to it and I'm glad some posters are actually talking about it because different perspective means everyone stands to learn something, even if it's just about other posters. The posters that came in only to dismiss you might as well be wearing their own signs: "Look how edgy I am". Dismissing someone by taking the time to write a post about it for everyone to see isn't really dismissing someone anyway, it's just asking for attention. Trolling at it's finest.

 

On another note, I find it interesting most women you know don't care. For me, I took an interest in the subject in the first place was because I've seen it first hand from the perspective of most of the women in my life and I've heard them complain about it regularely. I'm lucky in that I know a *lot* of female gamers. From my best friends, my girlfriend, my colleagues and even my mother. Most people here don't seem to have that luxury. Not a judgement, not saying people here don't know women or "can't get a girl" or whatnot, I just know a lot of women gamers and this issue is a much more active part of my life than most others - and if they were here, they could fight their own battles and I wouldn't have to bring it up. It makes me concerned that you may be white knighting, like my aforementioned example, which would be a big disappointment to me personally because I happen to enjoy your positive outlook. It's a nice contrast to all the snark.

[BruceVC]

I wasn't even on forums back then (I was 13) so for the longest time I thought Gromnir was actually patterned after the character, rather than the other way around. The story about Lanfear and her Coran obsession was hilarious when I found out, I swear I thought it was a reference to Wheel of Time.

 

 

I wonder if this article would have gone over better if someone else posted it.

 

Probably not. The article was pretty badly written and illogical.

 

And that by far  is one of the most insightful posts I've heard, well played

 

I know certain people will automatically dismiss this article just because I posted it. But that's fine, I would rather debate with people who want to debate and to add constructive comments to these types of  issues ( and I don't mean people have to agree with me ) Remember TN you don't raise SJ issues to be popular, its actually the opposite. Because most people don't like to be reminded of the ubiquitous inequality that's exists around us but generally doesn't effect them. But I don't care about popular opinion when it comes to my principles, I raise certain issues because I feel its the right thing to do

 

But saying all that I acknowledge that article isn't excellent, its interesting but I can see where it fails to deliver the message

 

 

Trust me, I know. I've raised a fair amount of ruckus about the particular subject of how women are treated in the game industry myself - and I've also learned that my perspective was also skewed in some ways because people here actually responded to the contents of the things I posted rather than just attack me personally. An article I posted by game designer Ernest Adams about how "we" are responsible for how women are treated comes to mind, which I came to realize through that discussion was the finest example of white knighting on the planet, guy may as well have been wearing a sign that said "come hither weak women, for I shallt protect thou" and I was wrong to defend him even if he raised some good points. One of the reasons I like this board is because it challenges me, a lot of people here are smarter than I am and it keeps me on my toes.

 

Which is part of the reason why I think it's unfair that what you post is automatically being dismissed. The article you posted is poorly written but it has some meat to it and I'm glad some posters are actually talking about it because different perspective means everyone stands to learn something, even if it's just about other posters. The posters that came in only to dismiss you might as well be wearing their own signs: "Look how edgy I am". Dismissing someone by taking the time to write a post about it for everyone to see isn't really dismissing someone anyway, it's just asking for attention. Trolling at it's finest.

 

On another note, I find it interesting most women you know don't care. For me, I took an interest in the subject in the first place was because I've seen it first hand from the perspective of most of the women in my life and I've heard them complain about it regularely. I'm lucky in that I know a *lot* of female gamers. From my best friends, my girlfriend, my colleagues and even my mother. Most people here don't seem to have that luxury. Not a judgement, not saying people here don't know women or "can't get a girl" or whatnot, I just know a lot of women gamers and this issue is a much more active part of my life than most others - and if they were here, they could fight their own battles and I wouldn't have to bring it up. It makes me concerned that you may be white knighting, like my aforementioned example, which would be a big disappointment to me personally because I happen to enjoy your positive outlook. It's a nice contrast to all the snark.

 

Good post TN, some valid insights there

 

I am definitely not white-knighting, some people just use this as way to dismiss a valid argument

 

Also I think it should be painfully clear to everyone that there are almost no active lady members who generally  contribute towards these types of discussions. So I'm not sure who I would be white-knighting to

[Malcador]

Bruce's 'outlook' is just a good act, though.  Next time though, avoid tumblr-drivel, are some decent "social justice" rants by people who want to change the world but are too lazy for it out there

Edited June 30, 2014 by Malcador

[Amentep]

Not a judgement, not saying people here don't know women or "can't get a girl" or whatnot, I just know a lot of women gamers and this issue is a much more active part of my life than most others - and if they were here, they could fight their own battles and I wouldn't have to bring it up.

I think for me that while I know some women gamers, they're not of a unified opinion on game content¹ and I'm not sure - not being a woman  - I'm in the position to best judge what anyone outside of myself would think.

 

I can, however, still judge an argument on the merits of the argument that don't presuppose certain gender-specific knowledge. For me, the article linked here was built on weak arguments - for example it pre-supposed that the games the author is against are "****ty" which immediately is a set up to imply the people who like ****ty things are also ****ty. Others may feel differently.

 

Which gets to the heart of the problem, in my eyes, that often these complaints are brought up in a vacuum, without any attempt to contextualize or understand the intent of the creation or storytelling.²

 

¹Heck, I know women who disagree about online actions that I find kinda creepy and that can't even be classed as "game content" controlled by the game maker - some dislike the unwanted attention, others don't care.  So which side am I to fall on regarding guys messaging women, in game, a/s/l (or the modern equivalent) much less what's actually in a game - with respect to the female gender?

 

²For me the ultimate justification for game content is the game itself; I think a lot of these problems could be side-stepped if a developer could just step in and say "we chose to do this because of..." and then use the game or game creation aspect of why that choice was made.  There may still be disagreement over whether the choice was right, but at least there's a defensible position that's already been thought about because a choice was made rather than becoming something that exists without thought or consideration within the game.

Edited June 30, 2014 by Amentep

[BruceVC]

Bruce's 'outlook' is just a good act,

 

I'm sure you say things like that just to annoy me, its like when people think I'm Trolling when I'm trying to be serious. And guess what, it is one of the few things that does annoy me 

 

But explain to me what would be the purpose of this act, what's the endgame?

[Orogun01]

 

 

 

 

To be fair, the character they included as you was a paranoid dictator. Just sayin'.

actually, we had assumed we would be included as a flatulent xvart or somesuch. the fact that we were included as a "paranoid" dictator who were proven ultimately correct, were far better treatment than we expected.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps amentep were a mod from time to time. might be best to ask him if there were a biowarian or black isle directive to stifle openly homosexual posters.

I kinda think that Dave was trolling you when he quoted you instead with "HAH! Good Fun!"

 

and making it a half-orc... but again, it turned out better than we expected. dave had emailed to warn us that they were intending on including Gromnir in bg2. our response was, "do your worst." a mini-boss character in tob with voice-over who were tragically given the Cassandra role? far, Far better than expectations.  

 

actual, it woulda' been in biowarian best interest to have simple used Gromnir as comic relief. shoulda' realized that boards would react poorly to significant cameos.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

It was obvious that the brown-nosing fanbots on the Bio boards (as was) would be furious that the disputatious forum contrarian won the honour of a cameo. Personally I think it taught them a lesson.

 

Monte, why do I get the feeling that I will one day read about you on the news?

[Malcador]

 

Bruce's 'outlook' is just a good act,

 

I'm sure you say things like that just to annoy me, its like when people think I'm Trolling when I'm trying to be serious. And guess what, it is one of the few things that does annoy me 

 

But explain to me what would be the purpose of this act, what's the endgame?

 

 

Why people with issues do things is something I've never bothered with uncovering, to be honest.  Why you do this is your own business.  But really that is an act, the Ukraine thread showed decent examples to me of otherwise.

 

Hah, I missed this backhand   Nicely couched too.

 

 

Most people here don't seem to have that luxury. Not a judgement, not saying people here don't know women or "can't get a girl" or whatnot

 

[BruceVC]

 

 

Bruce's 'outlook' is just a good act,

 

I'm sure you say things like that just to annoy me, its like when people think I'm Trolling when I'm trying to be serious. And guess what, it is one of the few things that does annoy me 

 

But explain to me what would be the purpose of this act, what's the endgame?

 

 

Why people with issues do things is something I've never bothered with uncovering, to be honest.  Why you do this is your own business.  But really that is an act, the Ukraine thread showed decent examples to me of otherwise.

 

Hah, I missed this backhand   Nicely couched too.

 

 

Most people here don't seem to have that luxury. Not a judgement, not saying people here don't know women or "can't get a girl" or whatnot

 

 

 

That's what I thought, you can't give me a logical  and relevant answer to why my posting style is an act. And I don't fault you for this because its not true

 

And the Ukrainian thread is a terrible justification for me being an act, considering all the dozens of other discussions I have participated in. I would argue my perspective is more or less consistent, yes I am wrong sometimes but I generally don't flip-flop on issues like social justice

[Monte Carlo]

 

 

Monte, why do I get the feeling that I will one day read about you on the news?

 

Why do you say that? 

[HoonDing]

5 pages.