The degree of character classes customization?

[konst3d]

Hello everybody (my first posting here)!

At the moment we finally have all of the class updates published. And reading these updates I feel that each character class is somewhat specialized. Fighters are "tanks"; Barbarians are melee damage dealers and so on...

I love D&D\AD&D games and mostly I love it for its reach character customization abilities, you can take a single class and create thousands of different characters that could take different party positions (tank, healer, melee damage dealer, buffer\debuffer, etc) out of it.

I realize that PoE isn't a D&D\AD&D but... The question is - how much could you customize your character within its class in PoE?

Will there be anything like D&D feats, or MMORPG-like skill-trees, or something that will allow you build different characters within the same class?

[Elerond]

It is said that you can build your characters to be much different from their class roles.

 

Class updates give only small sample of abilities that those particular classes can choose when they level up, it is said that there is much bigger pool of abilities which you can choose from. And addition to abilities there is also talents which give you ability personalize and differentiate your build from other build for same class. But I can't tell you any specifics because Obsidian hasn't yet released more specific information about this subject. 

[Sensuki]

Attributes, Gear and Talents (and spell selection for caster classes).

 

We are not sure if there's any choice of abilities for classes yet. The Fighter has 15 abilities listed on the wiki, but it's only possible to have 14 total as a level 12 character ....

[curryinahurry]

It is said that you can build your characters to be much different from their class roles.

 

 If you have a quote for this, please share.  I got a very different impression and would love to be wrong.

[Osvir]

 

It is said that you can build your characters to be much different their class roles.

 

 If you have a quote for this, please share.  I got a very different impression and would love to be wrong.

I don't have a quote but my impression is that classes will be flexible within their class roles (though, not necessarily different from their class roles). A Wizard in robes versus a Wizard in heavy plate armor for instance. You could probably specialize your Wizard to become a swordsman even, but it's not going to be the best kind of swordsman. Both are Wizards, but they are just different kinds of Wizards with different specializations.

 

A Dual-Wielding Fighter in Medium Armor might be a great single-target DPS killer, whilst a Sword & Shield Fighter is a crowd-control tank. Both are Fighters, but just different types of Fighters.

 

This is mostly my impression of what Obsidian has said, but there's also a hint of wishful thinking.

[curryinahurry]

 

 

It is said that you can build your characters to be much different their class roles.

 

 If you have a quote for this, please share.  I got a very different impression and would love to be wrong.

I don't have a quote but my impression is that classes will be flexible within their class roles (though, not necessarily different from their class roles). A Wizard in robes versus a Wizard in heavy plate armor for instance. You could probably specialize your Wizard to become a swordsman even, but it's not going to be the best kind of swordsman. Both are Wizards, but they are just different kinds of Wizards with different specializations.

 

A Dual-Wielding Fighter in Medium Armor might be a great single-target DPS killer, whilst a Sword & Shield Fighter is a crowd-control tank. Both are Fighters, but just different types of Fighters.

 

This is mostly my impression of what Obsidian has said, but there's also a hint of wishful thinking.

 

 

I agree with you, but I think it depends on how many class abilities are baked-in to the class.  Some classes will likely be more flexible than others; mage, thief, cipher, druid all look to be fairly flexible from what we've seen.  Ranger, monk, paladin, seem to be less flexible as of right now.  Either way, I think classes are going to be optimized for the roles; that's part of the Obsidian "no bad builds" objective.  How good they can become at other roles is what concerns me.  Even if your example fighter can't become as good a striker as a well optimized rogue or ranger, it should still be a heavy damage dealer for this system to be successful for what I want out of my gaming experience.

[teknoman2]

you cant make a spell casting fighter, but you can make an intelligent fighter that can hold several enemies in a deadlock or you can make a strong fighter that does a lot of damage or a resilient fighter that can outtank a dragon or a stealthy fighter that can move undetected in the middle of the enemy group and then draw all attention to himself while the spell casters wreak havoc undisturbed or any combination of the above

[Stun]

^On the other side of the coin, it is my understanding that you can do something similar with the Wizard class. You can take a wizard, put heavy armor on him, equip him with a decent weapon and shield, and then tinker with his stats so that he becomes a competent, but maybe not optimal, melee character.

 

At least I hope that's how it is. It's what I'm leaning towards as the first character I take through this game.

Edited June 30, 2014 by Stun

[AGX-17]

You can be a wizard with plate armor and a broadaxe (whether or not that's effective is questionable.) I think that's all that needs to be said. Actually, I'd like to be a fighter whose primary weapon type is "grimoire."

Edited June 30, 2014 by AGX-17

[forgottenlor]

It seems to me most classes can do a few things well. For example, the primary role of the wizard and druid is crowd control. This also seems to be the secondary role of the barbarian. The primary role of the barbarian is holding the front line, the secondary role of the wizard is doing damage to a single opponent, the secondary role of the druid is support. The wizard especially also has access to spells which fall outside both of his roles. I could slap armour and a shield on my barbarian and raise his stamina so he is a better line holder. Or I could give him high damage weapons and raise his stats to improve the area effect of his crowd control abilities. I could pick lots of stamina restoration spells for my druid, or I could focus on damage area effects. I imagine a melee wizard for example will fall back on the defensive spells a wizard has to offer, as well as short range/high damage output spells.

Edited June 30, 2014 by forgottenlor

[Lephys]

The thing is, you've got a whole party of 6 (if you want). I don't think the game's going to demand that each and every one of your party members is fully optimized according to class, just for you to be successful.

 

If you want to play all the characters "against" their class roles, then yeah, you're probably going to have a rough time of things. However, you could probably easily do 1 or 2 quite differently and it wouldn't hurt anything much. You could have your Wizard run about on the frontlines, if you wanted. Just, your frontline would have to consist of more people than just your Wizard, whereas, in a lot of situations, maybe your Fighter could stand alone holding the ling (especially at choke points).

 

You probably just hafta strike a balance between pure effectiveness and pure unique/specific build.

[konst3d]

You can be a wizard with plate armor and a broadaxe (whether or not that's effective is questionable.) I think that's all that needs to be said. Actually, I'd like to be a fighter whose primary weapon type is "grimoire."

The question is not about could you equip your wizard with heavy armor and sword and put him frontline - I believe you could, almost any game having wizards allows you to do this. The question is - could you make your wizard efficient in this role, or in any other role different then casting damaging\controlling spells staying outside of the battle? Let's take D&D games again - stone skin, (improved) mage armor, mirror image, (greater) heroism, intuitive strike, blades of fire, displacement, tenser's transformation, iron body, a-lot-of-other-spells, feats, prestige classes... I can keep counting for ages, these things allow your mage to be very good in melee and even outtank your fighter, sure you have to cast these spells each time melee engagement starts, but you can make melee mage if you wish and he will not be completely underpowered to fighters\barbarians.

And I would like to know the degree of PoE's character classes flexibility. Their ability to be efficient in different roles, not only in most straightforward one: fighter - tank, barbarian - melee aoe damage, rogues - melee single target burst damage and so on.

[AGX-17]

 

You can be a wizard with plate armor and a broadaxe (whether or not that's effective is questionable.) I think that's all that needs to be said. Actually, I'd like to be a fighter whose primary weapon type is "grimoire."

The question is not about could you equip your wizard with heavy armor and sword and put him frontline - I believe you could, almost any game having wizards allows you to do this. The question is - could you make your wizard efficient in this role, or in any other role different then casting damaging\controlling spells staying outside of the battle? Let's take D&D games again - stone skin, (improved) mage armor, mirror image, (greater) heroism, intuitive strike, blades of fire, displacement, tenser's transformation, iron body, a-lot-of-other-spells, feats, prestige classes... I can keep counting for ages, these things allow your mage to be very good in melee and even outtank your fighter, sure you have to cast these spells each time melee engagement starts, but you can make melee mage if you wish and he will not be completely underpowered to fighters\barbarians.

And I would like to know the degree of PoE's character classes flexibility. Their ability to be efficient in different roles, not only in most straightforward one: fighter - tank, barbarian - melee aoe damage, rogues - melee single target burst damage and so on.

 

Some Sawyerisms on the topic:

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66195-update-78-the-leaders-of-the-band-chanters-and-priests/page-3?do=findComment&comment=1449513

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/65832-update-74-wizard-druid-reflections/page-3?do=findComment&comment=1432828

[Valorian]

Here's what we know about talents:

 

Josh (21 January 2013): "Talents are our equivalent of feats.  In addition to gaining them through leveling (currently every three levels), you can also gain talents (often unique) from quests and story/NPC interactions." 

 

I don't know if it's still only 1 talent every 3 levels, but I'd prefer to be able to pick talents more often than that.

 

Abilities are class specific, gained every level, and I don't know if we'll be allowed to select any (apart from spells perhaps).

 

 

[Gromnir]

It is said that you can build your characters to be much different from their class roles.

 

 

in one sense, this sounds like a good thing. nevertheless, one does wonder what is the point of classes if you can customize outta class roles.

 

also, 'cause is becoming a theme for Gromnir, we feel compelled to mention that we has been told by obsidian via interviews and such that we know everything about poe other than story spoilers. and yet we find it more than a little perplexing that we know so little detail 'bout how we will be able to customize characters.  

 

weird.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Stun]

Here's what we know about talents:

 

Josh (21 January 2013): "Talents are our equivalent of feats.  In addition to gaining them through leveling (currently every three levels), you can also gain talents (often unique) from quests and story/NPC interactions." 

 

I don't know if it's still only 1 talent every 3 levels, but I'd prefer to be able to pick talents more often than that.

 

Abilities are class specific, gained every level, and I don't know if we'll be allowed to select any (apart from spells perhaps).

Hmm... interesting. I didn't know this. So... 1 talent every 3 levels? That's it? So with an exp cap of 12th level, we'll only be able to choose 4 talents. Ok, unless these talents are super powerful, I don't quite see how a player can use them to make their characters much different from their base class roles.

 

As for talents being handed out via quests... I'm ok with that, I suppose. Although it would be silly if such talents were feats of great human physical prowess. Like say...Whirlwind Attack or Weapon Finesse

 

"hey, I just found and returned Bob's missing family heirloom. Now I can suddenly do a spinning move with my sword that hits 4 enemies at once! 3x a day! Sweet."

Edited July 4, 2014 by Stun

[Silent Winter]

As for talents being handed out via quests... I'm ok with that, I suppose. Although it would be silly if such talents were feats of great human physical prowess. Like say...Whirlwind Attack or Weapon Finesse

 

"hey, I just found and returned Bob's missing family heirloom. Now I can suddenly do a spinning move with my sword that hits 4 enemies at once! 3x a day! Sweet."

Maybe it'll be more like - do a quest for the weapons-master and he'll teach you how to do it.

Or help the druid save the forest and he'll teach you how to 'call animals' to your aid (or whatever talents we have).

[Namutree]

 

As for talents being handed out via quests... I'm ok with that, I suppose. Although it would be silly if such talents were feats of great human physical prowess. Like say...Whirlwind Attack or Weapon Finesse

 

"hey, I just found and returned Bob's missing family heirloom. Now I can suddenly do a spinning move with my sword that hits 4 enemies at once! 3x a day! Sweet."

Maybe it'll be more like - do a quest for the weapons-master and he'll teach you how to do it.

Or help the druid save the forest and he'll teach you how to 'call animals' to your aid (or whatever talents we have).

 

I think Obsidian is smart enough to do it as you've described. I actually think that would be cool.

[forgottenlor]

 

Here's what we know about talents:

 

Josh (21 January 2013): "Talents are our equivalent of feats.  In addition to gaining them through leveling (currently every three levels), you can also gain talents (often unique) from quests and story/NPC interactions." 

 

I don't know if it's still only 1 talent every 3 levels, but I'd prefer to be able to pick talents more often than that.

 

Abilities are class specific, gained every level, and I don't know if we'll be allowed to select any (apart from spells perhaps).

Hmm... interesting. I didn't know this. So... 1 talent every 3 levels? That's it? So with an exp cap of 12th level, we'll only be able to choose 4 talents. Ok, unless these talents are super powerful, I don't quite see how a player can use them to make their characters much different from their base class roles.

 

As for talents being handed out via quests... I'm ok with that, I suppose. Although it would be silly if such talents were feats of great human physical prowess. Like say...Whirlwind Attack or Weapon Finesse

 

"hey, I just found and returned Bob's missing family heirloom. Now I can suddenly do a spinning move with my sword that hits 4 enemies at once! 3x a day! Sweet."

 

I think Valorian is just stating that in D&D characters got feats once every 3 levels (unless they were a fighter or wizard) and since Josh is saying talents are like feats, it would mean 1 feat every 3 levels in the old system. He's hoping they change this in POE, as it would seem to not allow much character

customization if it remained like the D&D system.

[curryinahurry]

 

Here's what we know about talents:

 

Josh (21 January 2013): "Talents are our equivalent of feats.  In addition to gaining them through leveling (currently every three levels), you can also gain talents (often unique) from quests and story/NPC interactions." 

 

I don't know if it's still only 1 talent every 3 levels, but I'd prefer to be able to pick talents more often than that.

 

Abilities are class specific, gained every level, and I don't know if we'll be allowed to select any (apart from spells perhaps).

Hmm... interesting. I didn't know this. So... 1 talent every 3 levels? That's it? So with an exp cap of 12th level, we'll only be able to choose 4 talents. Ok, unless these talents are super powerful, I don't quite see how a player can use them to make their characters much different from their base class roles.

 

As for talents being handed out via quests... I'm ok with that, I suppose. Although it would be silly if such talents were feats of great human physical prowess. Like say...Whirlwind Attack or Weapon Finesse

 

"hey, I just found and returned Bob's missing family heirloom. Now I can suddenly do a spinning move with my sword that hits 4 enemies at once! 3x a day! Sweet."

 

 

Highlighted the part that I've been sort of repeating for the past few weeks.  Yes, a rogue will always be a striker in the PoE system.  He/she can be a ranged striker or a melee striker, a finesse striker or a muscle striker, a sneaky striker or a jump into a the fray boldly striker, but always a striker.  Now there might be some talents that allow us to give the rogue a more thief-ly portfolio a la IE games that involve crowd control (traps, wand use, etc.), but we won't be able to change the fundamental role in combat as most of those characteristics are baked-in to the class.

 

I was hoping that we would have options for class abilities when levelling that allowed us to choose paths for our chracters; offensive rogue vs thief-ly rogue, etc..  But I haven't heard anything that supports that in the updates or comments.  The way the class roles have been presented, I don't think we will have a choice of which abilities we can choose upon levelling (certainly not distinct class paths)

Edited July 4, 2014 by curryinahurry

[Valorian]

 

Here's what we know about talents:

 

Josh (21 January 2013): "Talents are our equivalent of feats.  In addition to gaining them through leveling (currently every three levels), you can also gain talents (often unique) from quests and story/NPC interactions." 

 

I don't know if it's still only 1 talent every 3 levels, but I'd prefer to be able to pick talents more often than that.

 

Abilities are class specific, gained every level, and I don't know if we'll be allowed to select any (apart from spells perhaps).

Hmm... interesting. I didn't know this. So... 1 talent every 3 levels? That's it? So with an exp cap of 12th level, we'll only be able to choose 4 talents. Ok, unless these talents are super powerful, I don't quite see how a player can use them to make their characters much different from their base class roles.

 

Yes, only 5 talents total I think (without the quest talents); 1st 3rd 6th lvl etc. If they insist on maintaining the absolute dominance of abilities, I'd much rather they weaken talents a bit and let us pick one every other level. It's better because it would allow many more combinations.

 

Another quote. Josh (17 September 2013): "You also gain Talents at about 1/3 the rate that you gain Abilities, so they comprise much less of your character's makeup."

 

 

@forgottenlor

I quoted J.E. Sawyer and commented the quote.

[JFSOCC]

Hello everybody (my first posting here)!

At the moment we finally have all of the class updates published. And reading these updates I feel that each character class is somewhat specialized. Fighters are "tanks"; Barbarians are melee damage dealers and so on...

I love D&D\AD&D games and mostly I love it for its reach character customization abilities, you can take a single class and create thousands of different characters that could take different party positions (tank, healer, melee damage dealer, buffer\debuffer, etc) out of it.

I realize that PoE isn't a D&D\AD&D but... The question is - how much could you customize your character within its class in PoE?

Will there be anything like D&D feats, or MMORPG-like skill-trees, or something that will allow you build different characters within the same class?

in D&D you were pretty much shoehorned into certain builds though, because taking high intelligence for your barbarian or low wisdom for your monk was just plain stupid. In that sense PoE promises to give you a much broader range of charater builds than any D&D game ever had. Time will tell of course, but it sounds really promising.

[Stun]

in D&D you were pretty much shoehorned into certain builds though, because taking high intelligence for your barbarian or low wisdom for your monk was just plain stupid. In that sense PoE promises to give you a much broader range of charater builds than any D&D game ever had. Time will tell of course, but it sounds really promising.

That's not even remotely true. In fact, PoE's system is very similar to D&D's. Its class roles are probably more Defined though. (which isn't necessarily a good thing at all) In D&D, if you dumped Wisdom on your Monk and put those points into Strength instead, you ended up with a high damage output Monk who's Quivering Palm and Stunning Blows were weak. And if you put those points into Dexterity, your monk did less damage, but the trade off was that he was a defensive beast who evades everything and can't be hit except very rarely. And if you made a high intelligence Fighter or Barbarian, they got more skill points on level up. And the sky's the limit on what that could produce. Sneak, lockpicking, trap disarming, and tumble are all skills in D&D, and thus, a huge chunk of the rogue skillset is available to the high intelligence Barbarian or Fighter if he wants it.

 

In D&D, all classes benefit from Constitution.(health + Fortitude saves) And all classes benefit from Dexterity (Armor class + Attack score bonusses for missile weapons and finessed weapons.) And Wisdom (will saves). The only stat in D&D that the majority of classes can dump without any combat penalties is Charisma, and what a surprise, there's no charisma stat in POE.

 

 

Lets see things as they are, now. The only significant difference between the two systems is that unlike PoE, D&D lets you multi-class. Which, interestingly enough, forces the stats to be more valuable. (ie. a mage who multi-classes to fighter will suddenly have more need for Strength; A Cleric who multi-classes to Mage, will have more need to pump intelligence etc.)

Edited July 4, 2014 by Stun

[Quetzalcoatl]

You do realize that D&D had multi-classing precisely because the classes had limited flexiblity, right? Especially AD&D. It's not exactly the best argument to support your case.

 

 

 

And if you made a high intelligence Fighter or Barbarian, they got more skill points on level up. And the sky's the limit on what that could produce. Sneak, lockpicking, trap disarming, and tumble are all skills in D&D, and thus, a huge chunk of the rogue skillset is available to the high intelligence Barbarian or Fighter if he wants it.

You could take those skills, but their progression was weighted and limited. A thief would always have twice the amount of levels in those skills while investing half the amount of skillpoints.

 

 

 

That's not even remotely true. In fact, PoE's system is very similar to D&D's.

 

In D&D, all classes benefit from Constitution.(health + Fortitude saves) And all classes benefit from Dexterity (Armor class + Attack score bonusses for missile weapons and finessed weapons.) And Wisdom (will saves). The only stat in D&D that the majority of classes can dump without any combat penalties is Charisma, and what a surprise, there's no charisma stat in POE.

A huge difference in usefulness though. Wisdom (for non-divine spellcasters) only affects will saves, whereas Strength affects melee damage, carry capacity, and a bunch of other stuff (feat requirements, resistance to knockdown, etc.) for all classes. Constitution and Dexterity are obviously even more unequivocally useful for everyone than the mental stats (wisdom, intelligence and especially charisma). Going from 'D&D has a dedicated dump stat and some stats with limited usefulness' to 'D&D is just like PoE' is quite a stretch. And of course, the games that this is a spiritual successor to, used AD&D and didn't even have any of those things.

Edited July 4, 2014 by Quetzalcoatl

[Stun]

You could take those skills, but their progression was weighted and limited.

And that's exactly how it is in PoE, as well. Josh flat out said that every class can sneak (for example) but none will excel at it as well as rogues.

 

 

 

A huge difference in usefulness though. Wisdom (for non-divine spellcasters) only affects will saves

And spot checks, Listen Checks, Survival, Heal, Sense motive and probably a half dozen more I'm forgetting at the moment . For everyone. And then there's Monks. Wisdom increases the DC of their stunning blows and quivering palms, as well as improves their armor class.

 

Wait a minute. Is it your contention that the attributes in PoE will be more useful (like, literally have more uses) than they do in D&D? Really? Do list us all the uses for Constitution in PoE. all 2 of them. Then lets discuss How it is in D&D.

 

 

 

whereas Strength affects melee damage, carry capacity, and a bunch of other stuff (feat requirements, resistance to knockdown, etc.) for all classes. Constitution and Dexterity are obviously even more unequivocally useful for everyone than the mental stats (wisdom, intelligence and especially charisma). Going from 'D&D has a dedicated dump stat and some stats with limited usefulness' to 'D&D is just like PoE' is quite a stretch. And of course, the games that this is a spiritual successor to, used AD&D and didn't even have any of those things.

Boy, you sure are stating a ton of bizarre claims here. Either that or your D&D knowledge does not extend past its various lackluster computer game implementations. In my Pen and Paper days, stats like intelligence and wisdom were of primary importance to any class who wishes to solve any complex problem that arises in the wilds, or in a dungeon.

 

Listen, I know it's cool and all to jump on the D&D sux band wagon. And I don't mind that in the slightest. But do me a favor. Get your facts straight.

Edited July 4, 2014 by Stun