Your PoE Pros and Cons: 5 and 5

[Stun]

Also, also. RPGs with historical accuracy can and do sell woth a damn, just saying.

Name one.

[Arakasi01]

 

Also, also. RPGs with historical accuracy can and do sell woth a damn, just saying.

Name one.

 

Mount & Blade series to a varying degree. Maybe not in the map and power elements, but in time period weapon/armour design, combat elements architecture etc. it seems fairly accurate.

Shogun II is apparently similarly accurate.

Crusader Kings II apparently is even more historically accurate.

 

I'm sure I could go looking for more, but I have to go to bed, so I'll just leave you with this Kickstarter that I backed: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1294225970/kingdom-come-deliverance

That got over 3x its funding goal.

[Shevek]

Theres no need to have gender inequality. We all know women got short end of the stick on Earth but PoE doesnt take place on Earth. It is a fantasy representation of a time VAGUELY reminiscient and MILDLY analgous to a period of Earth's past. The small degree of added "suspension of disbelief" isn't worth creating a FANTASY world that is toxic to a huge chunk of the possible gaming population.

Edited June 29, 2014 by Shevek

[Shevek]

1. Also, to inject a small bit of logic, this is a world governed by more than just brawn. There is psionics and all kinds of magic (plus new tech). In such a place, why would some small amount of additional muscle mass give men more say?

 

2. This is an alien world. In this place, perhaps the physical strength between men and women may not be all that different.

Edited June 29, 2014 by Shevek

[NWN_babaYaga]

feudal europe or victorian london is not PoE so we dont realy need child abuse or anything like that. It´s a medieval FANTASY game and not a terrible real live sim where the inquisition burned trough the lands and killed of half the female population if not way more. Nobody knows what reality the medival period realy was. We only have some books which "honest" accounts are always questionable and paintings which tell much more. You can never portray the dark ages in a game that comes close to these times. You would create a nightmare of a game where death is everywhere, fear your best friend and starvation and torture an ordinary thing!

 

So all in all, good that PoE is a fantasy game and not a sinister portrait of the medieval times where the demon worshipping popes ruled!

 

Because if you take out all the silly history "professors" tell you about this time... books were rewritten how many times just to fit in the right context of rulership and just look at the drawings of torture etc. Thats where the reality looks back to you and i doubt there was ever something romantic. Even the sex was dull and boring, sex was a sin. Everything good was a sin!

 

Just not for the establishment. WE know that the elite enjoyed everything and didnt cared about god... or lets say they made their own portrait of a god and religion way better then what the people had thrown at like a dog bone. The most priests in the drawings are FAT how is that?--- well....

Edited June 29, 2014 by NWN_babaYaga

[Elerond]

 

 

Also, also. RPGs with historical accuracy can and do sell woth a damn, just saying.

Name one.

 

Mount & Blade series to a varying degree. Maybe not in the map and power elements, but in time period weapon/armour design, combat elements architecture etc. it seems fairly accurate.

Shogun II is apparently similarly accurate.

Crusader Kings II apparently is even more historically accurate.

 

I'm sure I could go looking for more, but I have to go to bed, so I'll just leave you with this Kickstarter that I backed: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1294225970/kingdom-come-deliverance

That got over 3x its funding goal.

 

 

Mount & Blade isn't historically accurate and it wasn't well received and it sale figures were at best mediocre.

Shogun II and Crusader Kings II are both grand strategy games not RPGs.

 

Most historically accurate RPG that I know is Darklands that is placed in late middle ages of Germany, but it has fantastic elements and it don't portray workings of society that accurately.

 

And generally games that seek funding from Kickstarter do so because there isn't enough market for them so that publishers would be interested on them. 

[Sensuki]

5 (of many) pros :

• A true infinity engine style game in 2014.
• Kazunori Aruga is working on the game, as far as I'm concerned he's a splendid hire. Every piece of art he has produced has been absolutely fantastic and he really captures the IE look and feel in his work.
• We're also probably quite lucky to have Josh Sawyer as Project Director and Lead Designer. While not everyone may agree with his system design philosophy, Josh really seems to understand "the IE feel" and if someone else was in his place we may not get a game that is very much like the IE games at all.
• Environment Art: IE style. In High Definition (100 woohoos)
• The possibility that there might be MORE games using this engine

Most of the things that I've previously thought were cons I've come to terms with but I have a few concerns about the game:

• The Spell FX art style might be really modern and flashy with too many lights. I'd prefer more subdued IE style FX
• The portrait quality might be sacrificed for quantity
• Character animations may not be very good
• The game might not be as long as I was expecting
• The game may have some of the hitches I've experienced with other Unity games (popping audio, stuttering, bad FPS)

Edited June 29, 2014 by Sensuki

[bonarbill]

 

 

 

Also, also. RPGs with historical accuracy can and do sell woth a damn, just saying.

Name one.

 

Mount & Blade series to a varying degree. Maybe not in the map and power elements, but in time period weapon/armour design, combat elements architecture etc. it seems fairly accurate.

Shogun II is apparently similarly accurate.

Crusader Kings II apparently is even more historically accurate.

 

I'm sure I could go looking for more, but I have to go to bed, so I'll just leave you with this Kickstarter that I backed: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1294225970/kingdom-come-deliverance

That got over 3x its funding goal.

 

 

Mount & Blade isn't historically accurate and it wasn't well received and it sale figures were at best mediocre.

 

Medicre sales compared to the most popular titles, but for a niche indie like Mount & Blade  those sales were pretty decent.  Decent enough that it's getting a sequal.  And while the review on gaming news sites were around the averge-above average category, it's rated highly by users and famous youtube reviewers.

 

And I don't see how it's not historically accurate.  Of course, it can't be totally accurate since it's still a game and it needs its gamey elements to be a fun game.

Edited June 29, 2014 by bonarbill

[Stun]

And I don't see how it's not historically accurate.  Of course, it can't be totally accurate since it's still a game and it needs its gamey elements to be a fun game.

Well that's kinda the whole point, isn't it. You can't have total historical accuracy in an RPG because if you do, the sheer dreary *dullness* will overpower its main purpose: Which is to be a Role playing game; to be fun to play.

 

And I think that's the main reason why having a game set in a feudal setting, and then taking the details of such a setting all the way to 100% - where you have to implement complete gender inequality in virtually all aspects of the game's systems, from the Story, to the quest lines, to the NPC interactions, to the visuals, and even to the player character generation screen choices... will end up being a very unappealing 'game' to even the fringe of the gaming masses.... even if it does end up being more 'interesting' than sitting in class and simply listening to the professor giving a standard lecture on the subject.

Edited June 29, 2014 by Stun

[Nonek]

 

And I don't see how it's not historically accurate.  Of course, it can't be totally accurate since it's still a game and it needs its gamey elements to be a fun game.

Well that's kinda the whole point, isn't it. You can't have total historical accuracy in an RPG because if you do, the sheer dreary *dullness* will overpower its main purpose: Which is to be a Role playing game; to be fun to play.

 

And I think that's the main reason why having a game set in a feudal setting, and then taking the details of such a setting all the way to 100% - where you have to implement complete gender inequality in virtually all aspects of the game's systems, from the Story, to the quest lines, to the NPC interactions, to the visuals, and even to the player character generation screen choices... will end up being a very unappealing 'game' to even the fringe of the gaming masses.... even if it does end up being more 'interesting' than sitting in class and simply listening to the professor giving a standard lecture on the subject.

 

 

Just so long as we are not cherry picking certain aspects to sweep under the rug for the sake of political correctness (i.e. lying) then yes I agree, the main point of a game is to have fun. The internal consistency of a game may mean that it has to deal with a thorny subject or two however, meaning part of the fun is in embracing that setting and dealing with the subject in a more mature manner. For instance if we have a sexist feudal society where the good book states that woman is evil and the mother of sin, let the protagonist be a woman and fight such a role, or have npcs who show how ridiculous such generalisation is through their every action.

 

There is plenty of inspiration, Eleanor of Aquitaine is a quite good example of a power player, independent minded, clever and a very real force in politics and the world. Joan of Arc, though never having fought in a battle or killed a man, served as a rallying cry for the French when it looked like we English had finally come close to ending their tyrannous reign as the European superstate. There are plenty more examples in history, not to mention other cultures where womens roles though strictly defined meant that they were honoured and had power over certain aspects, for instance the Old Norse believed that a woman ruled the home, could divorce her husband if unsatisfied and could lead the house if her husband died.

 

However i'm rather against making a modern day setting with a slight renaissance fayre flavour such as Bioware favours, with no seperate cultures, no downsides, no oppression or any other detail. If one has allready achieved a perfect society, with no problems or issues then what is the point of adventuring. If one deals with no thorny subjects then what of combat as a feature, thievery, grave robbing and all the elements that make up the game.

 

Personally as I see it, deal with any issue, but deal with it in a nuanced, intelligent and mature manner. In the case of female npcs do not have idle, unmotivated, incompetent, idiots who cannot even dress themselves appropriately for the weather or combat, and come and go slavishly at the protagonists bidding for years at a time for no reason whatsoever. Instead have self motivated women who take control of their own lives, are integral to the plot, are clever and potent, and pursue their own agenda with or without the protagonists help.

 

This is only my own humble opinion however, respectfully presented, and personally I would prefer that everything were presented subtly. Less preaching and obvious moralising, more raising questions for ones audience to answer as they see fit, after all we are all intelligent grown ups to be respected, not talked down to.

[Valmy]

feudal europe or victorian london is not PoE so we dont realy need child abuse or anything like that. It´s a medieval FANTASY game and not a terrible real live sim where the inquisition burned trough the lands and killed of half the female population if not way more. Nobody knows what reality the medival period realy was.  We only have some books which "honest" accounts are always questionable and paintings which tell much more. You can never portray the dark ages in a game that comes close to these times. You would create a nightmare of a game where death is everywhere, fear your best friend and starvation and torture an ordinary thing!

 

So all in all, good that PoE is a fantasy game and not a sinister portrait of the medieval times where the demon worshipping popes ruled!

 

Because if you take out all the silly history "professors" tell you about this time... books were rewritten how many times just to fit in the right context of rulership and just look at the drawings of torture etc. Thats where the reality looks back to you and i doubt there was ever something romantic. Even the sex was dull and boring, sex was a sin. Everything good was a sin!

 

Just not for the establishment. WE know that the elite enjoyed everything and didnt cared about god... or lets say they made their own portrait of a god and religion way better then what the people had thrown at like a dog bone. The most priests in the drawings are FAT how is that?--- well....

 

Don't listen to actual professors who study the mountains of evidence left behind on an entire continent.  Because history is all about studying books?  Um and if drawings of torture is reality why can we trust drawings of torture, why were they the only things to escape the vast Historian conspiracy to lie about everything?  Granted I guess they have done a very good job hiding the fact that the Inquisition, an organization invented after the Middle Ages, went through the countryside killing half or more of the women...which is bizarre I have no idea what you are talking about.  Unless you are talking about the witch burnings but that happened, again, well after the Middle Ages and mostly in Protestant countries so not sure what the Inquisition had to do with it.  And it seems the demonic Pope ruled all during the Middle Ages...except the Pope had no temporal power at all until right at the end of the Dark Ages and the idea the Pope had supremacy over the temporal powers was an idea that came along pretty late in the Middle Ages.  That and during the Middle Ages huge parts of Europe were pagan, muslim, or were part of the Eastern Church (though that distinction did not really come about until very late...the Pope hardly was the absolute master of those areas to say the least)

 

I especially like the idea that an era that saw increasing life expectancy, population expansion, and rises in the quality of life for many long periods in many places was a period of constant death and torture where everybody had a horrible life.

 

But I guess you are saying everything we think we know about the Middle Ages is a lie and somehow you know everything about the truth?  That all your darkest fantasies are the reality?

 

In any case I very much enjoy history but I do not play RPGs for that.  There are plenty of historical references in them but RPGs are for modern people to explore modern themes in different exotic settings.  Most of what happened in the Middle Ages would not be relevant to people today, and to the extent that things were I think they can safely be explored without trying to recreate Dark Ages gender roles (which are highly varied and complex over centuries and dozens and dozens of cultures anyway).

[Valmy]

 

There is plenty of inspiration, Eleanor of Aquitaine is a quite good example of a power player, independent minded, clever and a very real force in politics and the world. Joan of Arc, though never having fought in a battle or killed a man, served as a rallying cry for the French when it looked like we English had finally come close to ending their tyrannous reign as the European superstate. There are plenty more examples in history, not to mention other cultures where womens roles though strictly defined meant that they were honoured and had power over certain aspects, for instance the Old Norse believed that a woman ruled the home, could divorce her husband if unsatisfied and could lead the house if her husband died.

 

 

My God France as a Eurpean Superstate?   Anyway English victory in the Hundred Years War would have enhanced French power, not decreased it.  It would have combined England and France into a giant kingdom that would have been ruled from Paris.  Just saying...England was better off losing.  And France was a chaotic mass of local power centers that the French King had mostly informal power over, hence the Anjou conquest of Naples of Provence and the Norman conquest of...well...you know.  The thing that made France possible to be a European Superstate was the Hundred Years War itself when the French nobles gave the King tax power to fight the war.  Since the war went on so long they sort of became permanent.  But you know this.  English always gotta be busting French balls.

 

Anyway the key here is the second part of the paragraph.  This is a big and complicated topic.  It is not nearly so simple as 'the Middle Ages were just one big misogynist fantasy from 400 AD to 1453 nonstop" as you say.  It is also one that would invite lots of controversy.  Are RPGs really the right places to be exploring these topics?  I guess they could be but that strikes me as a lot of effort that would be better spent on making a great game.

Edited June 29, 2014 by Valmy

[Nonek]

Busting French balls, certainly not sir, one cannot break the non existent. Ha only jesting, entente cordiale and whatnot. Eradicating France to make the Angevin Empire a reality would not I think have increased French dominance in Europe, more eradicated it. Generally I agree the English kings should have been content with the lands of home and securing their throne and lands, rather than adventuring on the continent, but I suppose one has to have a hobby.

 

I'm personally fine with controversy, exploration of interesting themes and very deep nuanced settings, these make a fun and great game for me.

Edited June 29, 2014 by Nonek

[Yonjuro]

2. This is an alien world. In this place, perhaps the physical strength between men and women may not be all that different.

 

 This is a good point and we already know the answer to this. Men and women are equally physically capable in the PoE world (just as they were in BG and IWD). So, the inequalities that arose in our own world due to strength differences between the genders wouldn't exist in the PoE world. 

[Bryy]

I'd like to point out we are discussing the "strength differences" of a fictional work.

[Sarex]

This is a good point and we already know the answer to this. Men and women are equally physically capable in the PoE world (just as they were in BG and IWD). So, the inequalities that arose in our own world due to strength differences between the genders wouldn't exist in the PoE world. 

 

I'm not so sure that strength equality=gender equality.

[Arakasi01]

 

 

 

Also, also. RPGs with historical accuracy can and do sell woth a damn, just saying.

Name one.

 

Mount & Blade series to a varying degree. Maybe not in the map and power elements, but in time period weapon/armour design, combat elements architecture etc. it seems fairly accurate.

Shogun II is apparently similarly accurate.

Crusader Kings II apparently is even more historically accurate.

 

I'm sure I could go looking for more, but I have to go to bed, so I'll just leave you with this Kickstarter that I backed: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1294225970/kingdom-come-deliverance

That got over 3x its funding goal.

 

 

Mount & Blade isn't historically accurate and it wasn't well received and it sale figures were at best mediocre.

Shogun II and Crusader Kings II are both grand strategy games not RPGs.

 

Most historically accurate RPG that I know is Darklands that is placed in late middle ages of Germany, but it has fantastic elements and it don't portray workings of society that accurately.

 

And generally games that seek funding from Kickstarter do so because there isn't enough market for them so that publishers would be interested on them. 

 

See what other person said about M&B.

Shogun II and Crusader Kings II are both grand strategy and RPGs.

The reason that Kickstarter I showed is on Kickstarter is that they needed to prove to an external investor that there was an interest in the market, and they did more than prove that. They raised over a million dollars, if that isn't good enough, I don't know what is.

[Failion]

Since this is a colonial setting how about tribes like the aztecs and amazons but on steroids. A native tribe that sexually humiliates their captives. Impregnating them and uses tribal voodoo magic to steal the power from their soul and instills it in the baby which becomes a new tribal. The host that got impregnated is now a short term zombie servant for their dark god. The servants can be identified by their chastity locks. Both men and women of the tribe can impregnate either sex of captives. While the tribals can form relationships with each other and keep the tribe going that way their dark god however demands sacrifices if they wish to be physically superior over others.

[Zombra]

Don't worry.  I'm sure someone will be along soon to claim that women are "inherently" victim personalities who invite systematic repression in all worlds, regardless of their physical strength.

[Elerond]

See what other person said about M&B.

Shogun II and Crusader Kings II are both grand strategy and RPGs.

The reason that Kickstarter I showed is on Kickstarter is that they needed to prove to an external investor that there was an interest in the market, and they did more than prove that. They raised over a million dollars, if that isn't good enough, I don't know what is.

RPG elements don't make game RPG, even if dozens of reviewers say that Bioshock is a RPG.

 

M&B don't set any historical time period and it don't have any historical faction or societies, it only has fewer fantastical elements than most fantasy RPGs. It weapons, armors, etc. things are quite accurate representations of historical weapons, armors, etc. things. But even in them there are mixed different time periods. M&B is in my opinion good game but I don't see how it is any more historically accurate than any other fantasy RPG, it only uses more simulate system than what most RPGs, but such don't in my opinion make game more accurate it only changes how game is played. M&B did sold enough to make profit, but it also was much lower budget game than what you typical top selling games are. And it got sequel only because of Paradox was it publisher, because Paradox view of gaming business is to make games they like.

 

Million pounds are nice sum (but small compared to budgets of tens of millions that your typical top seller games from AAA publishers have), but 35k backers is quite small, as it will mean with optimistic prediction that game will sell from 300k-700k copies if it gets decent reviews (this prediction is from Paradox CEO about his expectations for PoE ), which isn't much on these days standards where multi million selling games can be considered selling poorly. It is like movies from Finnish studios that get 300k watcher in whole time they are theaters, are considered to be success, but Hollywood movies that get 10 million viewers in their opening weekend are often considered as flops.

 

So there is market for smaller budget stuff (which PoE is excellent example), but that don't mean that most of those smaller budget products will be top sellers, but of course they don't need to be as they had much lower budget than those your typical top seller products.

[Valmy]

 

I'm personally fine with controversy, exploration of interesting themes and very deep nuanced settings, these make a fun and great game for me.

 

I am with you to some extent.  I mean it would be awesome to me, a history dork, if they created a fictional society with gender roles almost perfectly lifted from 8th century Mercia.  That would be fascinating.  It might even be very confronting to see how their values created a rich culture and society.

 

Problem though is that there is no real nuance or exploration that could be done.  Mercia had a society that worked in a lot of ways for everybody who lived there and the ways it didn't...but the problem is we are not operating with 8th century values.  To 21st century people alot of what the Mercians did is just plain wrong.  I mean we might talk about how they made sense in their time period or were progressive by the standards of our view of the Dark Ages or even the actual Dark Ages.  But, at the end of the day, any suggestion that these values are anything but wrong would basically be an endorsement of say...gender inequality by the game.  Um yeah that is not going to work.  We can only ever say something as uninteresting as 'sexism is wrong mmmkay?'  Since there is not alot of debate about this I do not really see how it could be explored in an interesting way.  Maybe I am wrong about that.

Edited June 29, 2014 by Valmy

[Nonek]

Well i'm totally against the Bioware method of "sexism is wrong mmmkay" and preaching at ones audience like they're children, but there are an almost infinite amount of methods to approach any subject, one simply needs imagination. Showing how women are an integral part of Mercian society, their strength and potency in the face of adversity, dealing with the individuals who make up society rather than generalisations, this can be done through simple demonstrations of people and places rather than the protagonist being bluntly told. I'm not familiar with Offa's realm so I can't particularly expand on this particular aspect but almost any scenario could be played out subtly and with nuance.

 

As for the developers endorsing gender inequality that's just silly, and even the most progressive game with empowered female role models will attract idiots who look for outrage, while others that portray women in a positively demeaning light will be lauded because they spout a few appropriate press releases and say they support politically correct causes while doing nothing substantive. As usual artists should court controversy and seek to push the boundaries, because society at large is usually wrong and refuses to move on.

 

Edit: And once again if we are seeking to make a game that offends nobody then what features can possibly be left in?

Edited June 29, 2014 by Nonek

[HoonDing]

it will have realistic female armours

[Yonjuro]

 

This is a good point and we already know the answer to this. Men and women are equally physically capable in the PoE world (just as they were in BG and IWD). So, the inequalities that arose in our own world due to strength differences between the genders wouldn't exist in the PoE world. 

 

I'm not so sure that strength equality=gender equality.

 

 

Yeah, now that you mention it,  I'm not sure of that either but I think it (strength inequality) must be a factor.

[Stun]

it will have realistic female armours

Hopefully some will be magical too!