Update #81: The Front Line: Fighters and Barbarians

[Gfted1]

I will play on easy so I get the maximum quantity of camping supplies.

[Stun]

Why should I bother to fight a lych at level 10,

It's *lich*, and I would think the answer to that is obvious: FOR THE CHALLENGE (not to mention the fact that the City Gates lich drops Daystar and a wand of cloudkill, and a ring of invisibility)

 

 

considering that I DON'T NEED to at the point of the game (usually when people say underlivelled, they talk about this kind of situations. You know? When you meet an encounter that you are not supposed to beat at your actual level, but you can always try)[/size][/font]

What do you mean by "not supposed to beat"? BG2 is a minimally chapter-gated open world game. Where are you getting these make-believe developer intentions from? Your head? Your ass?

 

 

 

2) Cast sunray against a Lych and then come back and tell me how hard was your fight. LOL ...[/size][/font]

No one can cast Sunray until they reach 14th level, or until they get a hold of Daystar (which you have to kill a lich for)

 

So basically what you're saying here is that many of BG2's encounters are flat out HARD until you're pretty darn far into the game. Yes. That's true. That's also NOT AT ALL what you were saying just a couple of pages ago.

 

3) Even without that spell, Lych are easy to trick with resistant to magic summons.

Summons? Wait. Wait one stinkin minute. You ever actually fought a BG2 lich? There is no lich in BG2 that doesn't immediatly cast death spell the second he sees an enemy summon. And Death spell insta kills all summons, regardless of their magic resistance.

 

They are simply annoying because they force you to wait until their protections expires and during this period they can cast lots of offensive spells.  [/size][/font]

^^Standard definition of Cake walk right there!

 

PS: caster doesn't mean [/size]necessarily wizard/sorcerer. Try a cleric once in a while. He/she may surprise you :asd:... [/size]

I have. 78 times. I was trying to make it easy on you, since mages are the most powerful class in BG2. Or at least that was your claim 3 pages ago, when you were ranting about how unbalanced the classes are in the IE games. Edited July 2, 2014 by Stun

[Baudolino05]

 

Why should I bother to fight a lych at level 10,

It's *lich*, and I would think the answer to that is obvious: FOR THE CHALLENGE (not to mention the fact that the City Gates lich drops Daystar and a wand of cloudkill, and a ring of invisibility)

 

 

considering that I DON'T NEED to at the point of the game (usually when people say underlivelled, they talk about this kind of situations. You know? When you meet an encounter that you are not supposed to beat at your actual level, but you can always try)[/size][/font]

What do you mean by "not supposed to beat"? BG2 is a minimally chapter-gated open world game. Where are you getting these make-believe developer intentions from? Your head? Your ass?

 

 

 

2) Cast sunray against a Lych and then come back and tell me how hard was your fight. LOL ...[/size][/font]

No one can cast Sunray until they reach 14th level, or until they get a hold of Daystar (which you have to kill a lich for)

 

So basically what you're saying here is that many of BG2's encounters are flat out HARD until you're pretty darn far into the game. Yes. That's true. That's also NOT AT ALL what you were saying just a couple of pages ago.

 

3) Even without that spell, Lych are easy to trick with resistant to magic summons.

Summons? Wait. Wait one stinkin minute. You haven't actually PLAYED BG2 have you. There is no lich in BG2 that doesn't immediatly cast death spell the second he sees an enemy summon. And Death spell insta kills all summons, regardless of their magic resistance.

 

They are simply annoying because they force you to wait until their protections expires and during this period they can cast lots of offensive spells.  [/size][/font]

^^Standard definition of Cake walk right there!

 

PS: caster doesn't mean [/size]necessarily wizard/sorcerer. Try a cleric once in a while. He/she may surprise you :asd:... [/size]

I have. 78 times. I was trying to make it easy on you, since mages are the most powerful class in BG2. At least that was your claim 3 pages ago, when you were ranting about how unbalanced the classes are in the IE games.

 

a) I just said that, like I the vast majority RPGs out there, you are not supposed to kill every single mob the first time you meet him. SHOCKING, ehn? Of course, if in your strange universe a game is challenging when provides you optional (temporary) overpowered mobs, you are right. BG2 is DAMN hard :asd.

 

b) Yeah, Sunray is a level 7 spell. Remind me what's the level cap in BG2 and how much time does it take to reach level 14th.. 

 

c) Try with Animate Dead, come back here and tell me who's the one that doesn't know what is taking about. And BTW, they don't instant cast ****. You can even use low level summons as moving targets to attract Lich's attacks. LOL.

 

d) Actually, I CLEARLY said that all casters are overpowered in AD&D. You know? When I talk about buffs and defenses usually I talk about clerics, not wizards.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Baudolino05

[Stun]

a) I just said that, like I the vast majority RPGs out there, you are not supposed to kill every single mob the first time you meet him. SHOCKING, ehn?

Not shocking, just incoherent. Are you saying that the vast majority of players are not supposed to kill all hostile enemies when they see them? Or are you saying that in the vast majority of RPGs, hostile enemies you encounter are optional?

 

Of course, if in your strange universe a game is challenging when provides you optional (temporary) overpowered mobs, you are right.

Yes, That's precisely what I'm saying. And you should probably get with the program, because PoE is being developed in "my strange universe". Josh Sawyer has stated that the toughest encounters WILL be optional.

 

b) Yeah, Sunray is a level 7 spell. Remind me what's the level cap in BG2 and how much time does it take to reach level 14th.. [/size]

Alright.

 

The Level cap for BG2 is 2,950,000. With the Throne of Bhaal Expansion, it is 8,000,000. This translates, for clerics, to 20th Level and 40th Level respectively.

 

As for how long it takes a cleric, in a party of 6, to reach 14th level: I'd say about 30 f*cking hours... or more. Now, I don't know about you, but for me, that's too long to be without Daystar. Or the staff of the Magi.

 

 

 

c) Try with Animate Dead, come back here and tell me who's the one who doesn't know what is taking about. LOL.[/size]

Animate dead? First off, Skeletons aren't magic resistant (didn't you say magic resistant summons?). Second, What can a lone Skeleton Warrior do to a lich....besides NOTHING AT ALL?

 

d) Actually, I CLEARLY said that all casters are overpowered in AD&D.

Then you have made an erroneous claim. Beast Masters (a druid kit) are among the weakest classes in AD&D, and they most definitely are the most worthlessly underpowered class in BG2. Edited July 2, 2014 by Stun

[Namutree]

Skeleton Warriors can beat a lich. That was how I beat them on my first playthrough. I never found liches to be challenging at all in Bg2. 

[Baudolino05]

 

a) I just said that, like I the vast majority RPGs out there, you are not supposed to kill every single mob the first time you meet him. SHOCKING, ehn?

Not shocking, just incoherent. Are you saying that the vast majority of players are not supposed to kill all hostile enemies when they see them? Or are you saying that in the vast majority of RPGs, hostile enemies you encounter are optional?

 

Of course, if in your strange universe a game is challenging when provides you optional (temporary) overpowered mobs, you are right.

Yes, That's precisely what I'm saying. And you should probably get with the program, because PoE is being developed in "my strange universe". Josh Sawyer has stated that the toughest encounters WILL be optional.

 

b) Yeah, Sunray is a level 7 spell. Remind me what's the level cap in BG2 and how much time does it take to reach level 14th.. [/size]

Alright.

 

The Level cap for BG2 is 2,950,000. With the Throne of Bhaal Expansion, it is 8,000,000. This translates, for clerics, to 20th Level and 40th Level respectively.

 

As for how long it takes a cleric, in a party of 6, to reach 14th level: I'd say about 30 f*cking hours... or more. Now, I don't know about you, but for me, that's too long to be without Daystar. Or the staff of the Magi.

 

 

 

c) Try with Animate Dead, come back here and tell me who's the one who doesn't know what is taking about. LOL.[/size]

Animate dead? First off, Skeletons aren't magic resistant (didn't you say magic resistant summons?). Second, What can a lone Skeleton Warrior do to a lich....besides NOTHING AT ALL?

 

d) Actually, I CLEARLY said that all casters are overpowered in AD&D.

Then you have made an erroneous claim. Beast Masters (a druid kit) are among the weakest classes in AD&D, and they most definitely are the most worthlessly underpowered class in BG2.

 

1) I am sayng that a game with a 95% of easy encounters and 5% of (sometimes even optional) hard encouters is still a DAMN easy game. When you finally put your hands on a game that consistenly challange you, you will understand that simple concept. Or at least I hope so. 

2) JS also said that PoE is going to be a game with a consistent challange. So, there is still hope, at least for the highest difficulty levels...

3) Ok, if assorbing lich's spells (due to is 90% spell resistence) while the lich in question is invulnerable to your attack is nothing, ok, you are right: skeleton warriors are useless against liches :asd:...

4) Woao, you found the very kit that spoils my logic. And what about the other druid's, wizard's, cleric's and sorcerer's builds:asd:? 

 

BTW, I'm not even 100% sure that the best master is worse than the Bard or the Thief.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Baudolino05

[Lephys]

What do you mean by "not supposed to beat"?

I'm pretty sure that, by that, he means "not supposed to beat." It's not really that complex. If you were supposed to beat everything the second you laid eyes upon it, then that would be the opposite of how it actually is.

 

"Not supposed to" is not the same thing as "supposed to not," which is what you're arguing against. You're suggesting that he's saying taking stuff on "early" (relatively) is wrong, and waiting 'til later is right, when he's merely suggesting that neither is right or wrong.

[Yonjuro]

Skeleton Warriors can beat a lich. That was how I beat them on my first playthrough. I never found liches to be challenging at all in Bg2. 

 

 These guys are talking about an encounter as a level 10 caster. You don't get skeleton warriors until level 15. Before that you get one or two 'normal' skeletons.'

[Iucounu]

Yeah, you can't summon skeleton warriors as a 10th level caster. A different approach that works for a 10th level wizard would be to polymorph into a mustard jelly (100% magic resistance). Perhaps also add Spell Immunity:Abjuration, so that the Lich can't simply dispell your jelly form. 

Still that method requires metagame knowledge, just like using a Skeleton Warrior against casters does..

 

As for the discussion, I don't think BG 2 was a particularly challenging game, neither was it particularly unchallenging. I believe the main appeal of the game was to discover spells and abilities (especially for people new to DnD) play with them, combine them, and see what is possible. 

Bg2 was a paradise for people who loved to break games, and it was even more so when difficulty mods like tactics were introduced, where you had to use all your accumulated tricks in order to succeed. 

PoE will certainly be a very different game in that regard, considering Obsidians emphasis on balance. Perhaps this emphasis will lead to more tactical combat (mostly), I don't know. 

Still, I don't need hard tactical combat puzzles all the time in order to enjoy a game. A game can challenge in different ways. If I take IWD, you couldn't really powergame and break it like you could bg2, but the challenge was also mostly about finding optimal builds, optimal "buff-chains" et cetera in order to beat or dominate the game, and to manage heart of fury mode. Once that was done, the combat itself wasn't all that tactical, you could just breeze through everything, relax, all the while clapping yourself on your shoulders, adjust something here and there, and perhaps come up with ideas how to further improve your methods. At least that's how I've experienced it, and it was certainly not a boring experience 

Edited July 3, 2014 by Iucounu

[Stun]

 

What do you mean by "not supposed to beat"?

I'm pretty sure that, by that, he means "not supposed to beat." It's not really that complex. If you were supposed to beat everything the second you laid eyes upon it, then that would be the opposite of how it actually is.

 

"Not supposed to" is not the same thing as "supposed to not," which is what you're arguing against. You're suggesting that he's saying taking stuff on "early" (relatively) is wrong, and waiting 'til later is right, when he's merely suggesting that neither is right or wrong.

 

Huh?

[Yonjuro]

... Baldur's Gate I and II are such a cakewalk if you know and understand AD&D, that you can easily solo-play both games, with or without a preliminary playthrough.

 

 Yeah, not really. That's a ridiculous statement. The games get easy when you have metagame knowledge, but doing a blind solo play through of either game is going to be a challenge (unless you consider reloading to be a valid battle tactic).

 

 If you started BG1 as a solo mage you would have gotten eaten by wolves or killed by a mob of gibberlings before you got to the FA INN and, if you managed to run fast enough and (by luck) in the right direction and get to the FA INN, good luck against the first assassin. Your extensive knowledge of D&D would have let you realize just how screwed you were in your last moments in Faerun (unless fortune favored you with some *very* lucky dice rolls). A cleric would certainly have done better against the gibberlings. 

 

In BG2, if you go through the wrong door at the wrong time you will die. Your knowledge of D&D doesn't protect you from that. 

 

Oh, and...

 

 

....

 

Look. I don't wanna act like THE MEN. The first time I played BG I and II I already have years of experience with AD&D, and this gave me a BIG edge with these games. Having said that, can you honestly tell me that - rare circumstances aside - BG2 is not a cakewalk if you: 1) have at least 3 casters in your party;

 

 

 Yeah, about that. You can't have three casters in your party when you solo the game. So, why don't we just agree that you were exaggerating in your earlier post, ok? 

[Stun]

4) Woao, you found the very kit that spoils my logic. And what about the other druid's, wizard's, cleric's and sorcerer's builds:asd:?

In BG2 I'd rank clerics below Kensai or Paladins. They only get 1 attack per round and their weapon choices are too limited. Their spell choices lack the *fire power* that make Sorcerers and mages so great.

 

I'd rank Druids slightly above Clerics due to mage killing spells like Insect plague, and defensive spells like Iron skins but again, a decently built Berserker or Inquisitor will have an easier time in BG2.

Edited July 3, 2014 by Stun

[Sensuki]

Pretty sure I've beaten a lich with just the Breach spell and some tanking. YMMV. Fortunately I'm replaying BG2 right now so I can go kill the City Gate lich at my current level (9) and report back.

[Stun]

Liches are immune to breach.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Sensuki, when you report back, tell us your party make up, what tactics you used and how many reloads (if any) it took.

[Silent Winter]

Cheese - protection from undead scroll and send in a single party member. ... of course that's also boring and not taking on the challenge.

Can't remember but I think I always left Athkatla liches until I returned from spellhold.  Or if my character was in no hurry to get there, then at least after a fair few quests.

As others have said, if you meta-game, you can buff-up before the fight and go in (assuming you have the right spells).  If not (and first time play), you walk through the newly discovered door and come face to face with the lich/beholder/mindflayer - then beat a hasty retreat to buff up.  Some of them don't follow you through the door, so exploiting that part of the engine is possible.

I wonder if PoE enemies will know how to open doors / chase you through an area transition...

[Baudolino05]

 

... Baldur's Gate I and II are such a cakewalk if you know and understand AD&D, that you can easily solo-play both games, with or without a preliminary playthrough.

 

 Yeah, not really. That's a ridiculous statement. The games get easy when you have metagame knowledge, but doing a blind solo play through of either game is going to be a challenge (unless you consider reloading to be a valid battle tactic).

 

 If you started BG1 as a solo mage you would have gotten eaten by wolves or killed by a mob of gibberlings before you got to the FA INN and, if you managed to run fast enough and (by luck) in the right direction and get to the FA INN, good luck against the first assassin. Your extensive knowledge of D&D would have let you realize just how screwed you were in your last moments in Faerun (unless fortune favored you with some *very* lucky dice rolls). A cleric would certainly have done better against the gibberlings. 

 

In BG2, if you go through the wrong door at the wrong time you will die. Your knowledge of D&D doesn't protect you from that. 

 

Oh, and...

 

 

....

 

Look. I don't wanna act like THE MEN. The first time I played BG I and II I already have years of experience with AD&D, and this gave me a BIG edge with these games. Having said that, can you honestly tell me that - rare circumstances aside - BG2 is not a cakewalk if you: 1) have at least 3 casters in your party;

 

 

 Yeah, about that. You can't have three casters in your party when you solo the game. So, why don't we just agree that you were exaggerating in your earlier post, ok? 

 

 

Of course you need methagame knowledge to solo-play all I.E. games, and of course you're gonna die during your solo-play. But these are games supposed to be played with a full party of six characters, not with a single PC! The very fact that you can solo-play them  (BTW, multi-classes are preferable during solo-plays, and IWD2 is the esiest game of the pack to soloplay, if you wanna try) should tell you how easy can become a "normal" playthrough for players that simply know how AD&D works (the basis of the combat, which spells are the bests, which classes are preferable, etc). Basically stuff that any DM out there knows...    

 

4) Woao, you found the very kit that spoils my logic. And what about the other druid's, wizard's, cleric's and sorcerer's builds:asd:?

In BG2 I'd rank clerics below Kensai or Paladins. They only get 1 attack per round and their weapon choices are too limited. Their spell choices lack the *fire power* that make Sorcerers and mages so great.

 

I'd rank Druids slightly above Clerics due to mage killing spells like Insect plague, and defensive spells like Iron skins but again, a decently built Berserker or Inquisitor will have an easier time in BG2.

 

Again: you haven't ever casted a buff chian before entering a battle in a I.E. game, have you?  Have a try. Thy may change your opinion about clerics. 

 

PS: kensai are overpowerd too in their own way. One of the best build to solo-play BG2 is a multiclass kensai-mage 

Edited July 3, 2014 by Baudolino05

[Sensuki]

Okay I beat the Lich on the first go. All I did was cast Improved Invisibility on my PC (Kensai), use an Oil of Speed and walk in and attack the lich to death. Due to Improved Invisibility he was unable to target me with any spells, and for some reason he has no True Sight trigger in the AI (this is the City Gate Lich).

 

Didn't send any other party members through the door

 

This obviously wouldn't work on any Liches that have True Sight (and I believe some of them do) but that's a simple way to kill that one at an early level.

Edited July 3, 2014 by Sensuki

[Stun]

Again: you haven't ever casted a buff chian before entering a battle in a I.E. game, haven't you?

lol

 

If you knew my history on these forums of defending and vocally (noisily) promoting the pre-buffing ritual whenever Josh proclaims it 'degenerate behavior', you wouldn't make such a grotesquely off-the-mark assumption. Stop tripping, now. No one abuses buffs more than me. I invented Buffing.

 

But the thing with Clerics is that they've got their defense game covered already. They can wear any armor, and they can use all the fancy accessories. And while they can obviously pile Protection spells on top of that (especially when soloing), those spells are most useful when used on other party members. But that's called "support". It's not how I measure class over-poweredness in BG2.

 

I measure class power by how much of a "foot print" they can make on the battle field - how much pure death and destruction they can inflict upon an encounter -- and how efficiently they can do away with something that's engaging them. And using that criteria, Clerics are only above average on the scale in BG2. They cannot objectively be grouped on the same level as Mages, Specialized Mages, Wild Mages, and Sorcerers. Period.

 

Paladins are more powerful than clerics. They're better because they can use Carsomyr. To prove the accuracy of that claim, lets talk about.... Liches, again. Clerics can eventually insta-kill liches with their turn undead power, but that won't happen until well into Throne of Bhaal if you're running a party of 5 or 6. Until then, they have to be content with casting Sunray, which, contrary to your earlier claim, won't work on a spell-protected lich. Which means you've got to get up close, then you have to cast it FAST before the lich's Contingencies fire. A Paladin with Carsomyr, on the other hand, is under no such limitations. Carsomyr utterly dispels whatever it touches, and then the Paladin's natural melee skills take over. And this also applies to any mage encounter....of which there are MANY in BG2.

 

But on to the important stuff!

 

 

But these are games supposed to be played with a full party of six characters

There you go again, pretending that you're one of the developers of the infinity engine games who knows, better than the rest of us, what developer design intentions are.

 

In fact, the IE games are supposed to be played by a party size of the player's choice. From 1 to 6. Says so in each of the game manuals. And this comment from you, a self-proclaimed D&D veteran, is quite odd. Standard fare in D&D is 1) 1 fighter, 2) 1 Rogue, 3) 1 cleric 4) The mage. That's 4, not 6. The IE games claim to be adaptions of D&D, so...

Edited July 3, 2014 by Stun

[Stun]

Okay I beat the Lich on the first go. All I did was cast Improved Invisibility on my PC (Kensai), use an Oil of Speed and walk in and attack the lich to death. Due to Improved Invisibility he was unable to target me with any spells, and for some reason he has no True Sight trigger in the AI (this is the City Gate Lich).

 

Didn't send any other party members through the door

 

This obviously wouldn't work on any Liches that have True Sight (and I believe some of them do) but that's a simple way to kill that one at an early level.

What weapon were you using?

 

Edit: Actually the City Gate Lich's AI is set to Gate in a Pit Fiend when hurt. Did Your Kensai also fight a Pit Fiend?

Edited July 3, 2014 by Stun

[Sensuki]

He didn't summon a Pit Fiend for some reason, but yes I do recall him doing that on other occasions. I was using the Blade of Roses +3 which you can buy after you do the Slaver stuff in the Copper Coronet, and the Namarra +2 as offhand.

[rjshae]

Somebody wandering in and looking for a PoE discussion would probably be very confused at this point...

[Sensuki]

Yeah I don't even know what this argument is about I just saw "Liches are too hard for early level BG2 encounters".

[Stun]

Well, see, we originally went off topic by talking about class imbalance. But then that got derailed when someone said that the IE games are a cakewalk on the first playthrough. And now we're discussing lich killing tactics in Baldurs Gate 2.

[constantine]

OK ! I found my main char's class-- Fighter !

 

Main melee classes are presented to take up their role in a never-before-seen and interesting way.

 

Good work once again !