Sexually explicit content

[Sensuki]

Let there be contextual rape (like IWD 1 and 2)

 

Edited June 17, 2014 by Sensuki

[Darji]

 

The Witcher has already established that gamers are mature enough to handle this kind of content, I feel it'd be a missed opportunity for Obsidian to not go all out now that they don't have no answer to anyone but the backers.

 

 

...You honestly believe that's what a significant number of backers were looking for when they ponied up money? Pornography? Response to the inevitable counter: You're the one who derided Dragon Age for implicitly failing to deliver a quality product by merely providing "softcore porn."

 

It'd be a missed opportunity if Obsidian didn't make a porn game with the money of people who didn't pay money for pornography? And you're going to laud The Witcher's sexual content as proof that gamers are "mature"? I realize you don't need a mouth to type, but it must be hard to hit the keys with your foot shoved in there, nevertheless.

 

Sexual content does not mean pornography at all. Sex is something everyone will experience in their daily life. It is something natural that is getting way left out. Instead we a playing games with explicit violence and we have no problem at all. But if you want to include erotic or Sex in general in a very mature way even. people get really upset. Sex is nothing to be ashamed of.  And the Witcher did this fairly way and very tasteful. 

Edited June 17, 2014 by Darji

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Sex is something everyone will experience in their daily life. It is something natural that is getting way left out. Instead we a playing games with explicit violence and we have no problem at all. But if you want to include erotic or Sex in general in a very mature way even. people get really upset. Sex is nothing to be ashamed of.  And the Witcher did this fairly way and very tasteful. 

 

 

Reducing female NPCs to collectible cards with boob pictures could be called many things, but "mature" and "tasteful" are not amongst them, methinks.

[Gromnir]

 

Sex is something everyone will experience in their daily life. It is something natural that is getting way left out. Instead we a playing games with explicit violence and we have no problem at all. But if you want to include erotic or Sex in general in a very mature way even. people get really upset. Sex is nothing to be ashamed of.  And the Witcher did this fairly way and very tasteful. 

 

 

Reducing female NPCs to collectible cards with boob pictures could be called many things, but "mature" and "tasteful" are not amongst them, methinks.

 

well, our default for classing up entertainment media is to include judi dench and/or venessa redgrave.  unfortunately, am not thinking that would help with b00b cards.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Zwiebelchen]

I don't get why there is a debate around allowing sexual content in a game. This is so yesterday.

 

And I don't really see the point here, as the question of how sexual content should be implemented in a game can always be answered with just one simple line:

In a way that fits the world and narrative.

 

Sex or Rape or any kind of that sort should never be self purpose. It shouldn't be used as a plot device or trope. Moreover, it should be implemented in a way that makes the world more believable. It's the same with racism or religion. Such topics should always be present in exactly the way it would be present in the world you want to picture.

If we take The Walking Dead from Telltale as an example, you will find racism themes in that game. But not more or less than you would find them in real life. There's never someone that approaches you and says "Hey dude, you are black, I don't trust black people!", because that doesn't happen in real life either (well ... it might happen, but you wouldn't side with people that stupid in a zombie apocalypse). What you can find, however, is a very subtle racist undertone here and there. It's never part of the story or just a plot device; it's there because it's real. Perfectly executed! Well done, Telltale!

 

We don't want Mary Sue stories or - even worse - http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeAsBackstory.

But what I think everyone can agree on: we want a believable world. A world where sex and violence is not more or less prominent than how it really was in the middle ages. There should be people with obscene language, there should be harlots or slavery. But only where it is believable and serves a more immersive world.

It would be wrong to have multiple quests about sexual abuse. It would be wrong to allow the player to bang everyone or anything without any logical reason. But it certainly wouldn't be wrong to have a brothel in a major town. Because, guess what, towns just happened to have brothels in the middle ages.

 

Sex and sexual violence are part of any believable world. It just seems that game makers think that just because sex and violence are there, they ultimately must matter to the story. And that couldn't be more wrong.

 

 

By the away, as the absence of romance stories was mentioned in this thread:

While I definitely support obsidians decision on that, I do not agree with the motives behind that.

It feels they did it because of how poorly written romance stories can break immersion and because nowadays, not making a romance story in a singleplayer RPG is kind of the oddity.

 

A well written romance story can be engaging and have a great artistic value - if it fits the story and the characters, that is.

The problem with implementing a romance story in a game is that as soon as you add one, all the gender equality people will chime in and demand one for the opposite sex and homosexual relationships aswell. And then you have to deliver because you don't want to be called out by media. This leads to characters being bland and only be implemented for the purpose of having a romance plot. It's kind of a ****ed up situation.

I'd love to have a developer finally stand up in this case and say "We will not make XYZ romancable because it does not fit the narrative.". and give a **** about the media. But I understand that this will probably never happen.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Zwiebelchen

[Messier-31]

Kinky.

 

Interesting part is that the amount of posts, and thus pages, in this thread since its start (yesterday) shows how this community is supersensitive about the issue.

[Chilloutman]

In topics like this I always want to replay old Fallouts again and dream about better future of gaming... and then BETHESDA

[anameforobsidian]

In topics like this I always want to replay old Fallouts again and dream about better future of gaming... and then BETHESDA

 

And then Bethesda nothing.  Interplay had destroyed the series and itself for almost ten years before Bethesda got its hands on it.  Because of Bethesda we got F:NV, which is far more Fallout than we would have had otherwise.

[Chilloutman]

 

In topics like this I always want to replay old Fallouts again and dream about better future of gaming... and then BETHESDA

 

And then Bethesda nothing.  Interplay had destroyed the series and itself for almost ten years before Bethesda got its hands on it.  Because of Bethesda we got F:NV, which is far more Fallout than we would have had otherwise.

 

ehh little off topic but how Interplay destroyed Fallout? I have feeling you really like new Fallouts, but for me its foblivion (FNV is foblivion with better conversations for me)

[Darji]

 

 

 

Sex is something everyone will experience in their daily life. It is something natural that is getting way left out. Instead we a playing games with explicit violence and we have no problem at all. But if you want to include erotic or Sex in general in a very mature way even. people get really upset. Sex is nothing to be ashamed of.  And the Witcher did this fairly way and very tasteful. 

 

 

Reducing female NPCs to collectible cards with boob pictures could be called many things, but "mature" and "tasteful" are not amongst them, methinks.

 

 Ok then let me rephrase it. The Witcher 1 had cards which were art and pretty acceptable and tasteful.  The Witcher 2 on the other hand had very mature and tasteful sex scenes which is very rare in this industry.  And it is by far much better than anything Bioware did past Baldurs Gate. 

Edited June 17, 2014 by Darji

[Chilloutman]

 

Sex is something everyone will experience in their daily life. It is something natural that is getting way left out. Instead we a playing games with explicit violence and we have no problem at all. But if you want to include erotic or Sex in general in a very mature way even. people get really upset. Sex is nothing to be ashamed of.  And the Witcher did this fairly way and very tasteful.

 

Reducing female NPCs to collectible cards with boob pictures could be called many things, but "mature" and "tasteful" are not amongst them, methinks.

 

You don't have pictures of you girlfriend, ex-girlfrieds?

 

Sarcasm alert

 

 

If you have any

 

Edited June 17, 2014 by Chilloutman

[PrimeJunta]

Reducing female NPCs to collectible cards with boob pictures could be called many things, but "mature" and "tasteful" are not amongst them, methinks.

Yet the same game (series) has women NPC's with more personality and agency than just about any RPG, does its best to allow you to create emotional connections with them, and writes relationships with them that are not pure ego-gratification.

 

While both games had features that were similarly problematic as anything else out there, IMO it's not fair to dismiss them because of that without even acknowledging what they did better and, yes, more maturely than any other mainstream title I can think of. Triss, Shani, and Ves are not props, objects, eyecandy, or cheap thrills.

[Karkarov]

Awful lot of hot air over some off the cuff journalist comment that could literally mean nothing.  There is no romance in game... so aside from a Brothel showing up or their being some relationships in game with implied sex (like Jaheira/Khalid being married and they actually acknowledge it in some way...) I don't see much room for sexual content.  Maybe somewhere in the main story if it makes narrative sense like someone else already posted.  We already know the "PC" wont be having any sex scenes though unless it is via that optional brothel, and if Obsidian leaves that out well... at least one backer won't miss it.

[anameforobsidian]

 

Reducing female NPCs to collectible cards with boob pictures could be called many things, but "mature" and "tasteful" are not amongst them, methinks.

Yet the same game (series) has women NPC's with more personality and agency than just about any RPG, does its best to allow you to create emotional connections with them, and writes relationships with them that are not pure ego-gratification.

 

While both games had features that were similarly problematic as anything else out there, IMO it's not fair to dismiss them because of that without even acknowledging what they did better and, yes, more maturely than any other mainstream title I can think of. Triss, Shani, and Ves are not props, objects, eyecandy, or cheap thrills.

 

 

Really?  I wouldn't say they even had interesting characterization or agency.  The only time Triss and Shani inform your choices is when you have to choose between them romantically, or when Triss has been kidnapped.  Ves is rarely in the narrative at all, and the most notable time is when she's a rape victim.

[NWN_babaYaga]

I dont understand once again what rape or sexual assault has do with "sexual content" in a game... are some of you obsessed with violence you never witnessed yourself but would certainly do as long as your not the victim? When we add these things why dont how to carve out unborn babys from pregnant woman... or how to torture the saw way like in medieval times... this was reality yes. So if i think it is ok and UP TO DATE to be free from all common sense let me dictate the future as a sicko what games should "advertize" my messed up mind tales in a subtle fashion. Reality is just that reality and there are many things that some might consider as horrible then one can imagine that happens day after day here but that doesnt mean that the "torture porn" trend is something good... no it is not!

 

If you think it is cool then go out, look for the right person and insult him.... then you see how cool it is to sit behind a monitor and talk about these things. Fantasy games are not the witch hammer or mein kampf!

 

And to make things clear... if you want these real storys go look around in the I-net and you find alot of these horrible things. That doesnt mean i have to be bombarded with tthat in a game i want to relax too. Search for silence of conspiracy etc. and have a nice day...

 

And for you who think that rape is sex and not torture... hear some interviews from children who have witnessed that or grown up man coming out with these storys... you will see how much sex that was. Grow up!

 

The church argued the same way btw about torture during the inquisition. It was HOLY and for the good thing. There you see how messed up you can be without common sense!

Edited June 17, 2014 by NWN_babaYaga

[PrimeJunta]

Really?  I wouldn't say they even had interesting characterization or agency.  The only time Triss and Shani inform your choices is when you have to choose between them romantically, or when Triss has been kidnapped.  Ves is rarely in the narrative at all, and the most notable time is when she's a rape victim.

Can you name a male NPC in The Witchers or other mainstream RPG's which do better?

[Nonek]

 

Really?  I wouldn't say they even had interesting characterization or agency.  The only time Triss and Shani inform your choices is when you have to choose between them romantically, or when Triss has been kidnapped.  Ves is rarely in the narrative at all, and the most notable time is when she's a rape victim.

Can you name a male NPC in The Witchers or other mainstream RPG's which do better?

 

 

For myself I can find few male characters in the Witcher who can match Philippa and the other ladies of the Lodge, Letho obviously and Iorveth and Roche as your primary allies. However the whole plot of Assassins of Kings is partly the work of the Lodge, from their attempted coup in Aedirn to Nilfgaard's agents using this to fuel their own plans, they show admirable self motivation, intelligence and ambition. This is perhaps best displayed in the Philippa scene where she emerges from the sickbed of Saskia, all we get is a small smirk, but it's clear on a replay that she has discovered the Virgin Maids true nature and is altering her plans to account for this. You don't often get female characters acting with such cunning in modern games, where they usually simply follow the protagonist around for years at a time without pay or any personal considerations.

 

Of course Triss being kidnapped and cut out of the goings on does limit her effectiveness, but we do see that this was just a quirk of fate interrupting her investigations of the Lodge that she helped form. The Sorceress is human and vulnerable like anybody else in the games, and just like Geralt repeatedly needing her aid in the first game, where she saved his life three or four times as I remember, she now needs anothers aid. This doesn't make her useless, merely human to me. She displayed enough strength in the first game, saving Geralt repeatedly, forming the alliance that would take down Salamandra and one assumes bringing Foltest back to the capital when Adda's motivations became clear.

 

Overall I thought the ladies of the Witcher were potent, independent and clever, and even when they slept with Geralt retained their independence. They did not need his mutated organ to *cure* them, in the strangely distasteful manner that many games advocate.

 

Edit: A pity that we never got to see Dol Blathanna or Enid.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Nonek

[Amentep]

..I guess the difficulty with handling "adult themes" in a mature way, is that you're likely only ever successful if you can challenge immature people to change their minds along the way.

 

Too often narrative storytelling that views itself as mature tries to prove its maturity by showing explicitly how it has the freedom to do mature things, which in turn makes the mature elements seem gratuitous and thus immature.

[Kina]

There's always need of a good balance of story, action, and interaction between the player and npcs/companions. If you need to empty your head and just bash, it's better to chose an action/adventure game, a hack and slash or a shooter. Real RPGs are meant to immerse you. You gotta feel your character, feel your companions - love or hate them.

 

As a female old school player, these are the best games in my opinion. There is nothing like a good party banter (Valen and Deekin anyone?), drama, fun, complications etc. Such games are a story that lets you the player participate - it is suppose to move you, to anger you, to make you laugh, or even cry. I respect even those characters that I have hated in games, because they have succeeded to extract a reaction from me - means the game is a success.

 

Sexuality is good, especially along with a good text lines. No need to spam us with to much graphics (yep DAO's cut scenes are well... usually skipped after the first time), but at the same time it's fine to find a good balance. A bit of vulgarity, a bit of respect, but mostly, mostly interaction between the player and his friends/foes. Romances in games are very important in my opinion. The character I play, whether it is a female or a male, belongs to that universe and I like to have my characters evolve and experience as many things that suit me - because I learn from them every time. Every experience even in a video game, is a level up for the one who opens his mind to learn or see new things.

[Elerond]

As Obsidian has said that they don't want write romance in game because they feel that they don't have resources to make them good enough. Which means that game will not give player option to have sex in romantic context in any form (explicit or implicit), therefore I would say that offering explicit sexual content in other contexts would not be the best possible choice that Obsidian could make. Which is why I think that any sexual content that Obsidian puts in game should be only implicit references to what is happened or has happened, and there probably should not be sexual content where player has agency over it like for example paying sex in brothel, as such content feels nearly always just player titillation, what Obsidian wanted to avoid with their decision not to do romances.

 

So my opinion is that PoE should not have explicit sexual content, as I don't think that it would fit very well with style of maturity that Obsidian said they wanted game to have.

[Nonek]

A pity if the world does not contain bawdy houses and strumpets, not for the titillation factor, as i'm not particularly attracted to pixels or text descriptions, but for the depth and cohesiveness of the world as a whole. One can imagine doxies and madames being excellent sources of information and possible informants, especially if they're an unusual take on the profession. As I said earlier the crowded streets of Sigil spring to mind in Torment, personally I found that implementation very well done, especially in terms of fleshing out the harsh, hopeless nature of the hive.

 

Then again that was hardly explicit, it did a lot with a little, the hallmark of good design I suppose.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Overall I thought the ladies of the Witcher were potent, independent and clever

 

 

True enuff, some of them were. A pity that they were designated antagonists

[Nonek]

 

Overall I thought the ladies of the Witcher were potent, independent and clever

 

 

True enuff, some of them were. A pity that they were designated antagonists

 

 

Personally I thought that was a bonus, I like good and challenging antagonists, and the Lodge ladies were not my enemies at any point merely an obstacle to overcome when they tried to raze Loc Muinne. And I judged their desire to back (and manipulate) Saskia's usurpation as a largely moral one, certainly just as worthy as any of the Northen Kingdoms feudal monarchs. If i'm defeating tired tropes or McGuffin slaves the victory is hardly sweet, more pitiful and pointless.

 

Another reason why I respected the Viper as an antagonist, he bested competition that was in and of itself fearsome, and could be said to have won the game simply with Foltest's assassination.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Nonek

[Gromnir]

I dont understand once again what rape or sexual assault has do with "sexual content" in a game... are some of you obsessed with violence you never witnessed yourself but would certainly do as long as your not the victim? When we add these things why dont how to carve out unborn babys from pregnant woman... or how to torture the saw way like in medieval times... this was reality yes. So if i think it is ok and UP TO DATE to be free from all common sense let me dictate the future as a sicko what games should "advertize" my messed up mind tales in a subtle fashion. Reality is just that reality and there are many things that some might consider as horrible then one can imagine that happens day after day here but that doesnt mean that the "torture porn" trend is something good... no it is not!

 

If you think it is cool then go out, look for the right person and insult him.... then you see how cool it is to sit behind a monitor and talk about these things. Fantasy games are not the witch hammer or mein kampf!

 

And to make things clear... if you want these real storys go look around in the I-net and you find alot of these horrible things. That doesnt mean i have to be bombarded with tthat in a game i want to relax too. Search for silence of conspiracy etc. and have a nice day...

 

And for you who think that rape is sex and not torture... hear some interviews from children who have witnessed that or grown up man coming out with these storys... you will see how much sex that was. Grow up!

 

The church argued the same way btw about torture during the inquisition. It was HOLY and for the good thing. There you see how messed up you can be without common sense!

am not certain who this is directed at, but we will note that there is valid reasons for including rape and sexual assaults in stories. rape is violent and ugly. other than a handful of extreme twisted persons, and perhaps those who like japanese pr0n manga, people understand that rape is evil. is one o' those few acts that ain't subject to moral relativism. the most depraved and irredeemable villains 'mongst us has had a mother or sister. as such, it takes very little empathy to be understanding that forced sex is a brutal and dehumanizing act. perhaps modern medias has ruined us all a bit. heck, look at crpgs and see that our heroic characters is mass murderers who could stack up their copses high 'nuff to challenge nimrod's tower. thieves and arsonists is as likely to be good guys as bad in our games. but rape is different. rape is evil, and so little is these days. 

 

yeah, there is some broken children on this board who might argue for rape as something other than vile and ugly, but do you think it is even remote possible that obsidian developers would follow such a lead? 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Karkarov]

Another reason why I respected the Viper as an antagonist, he bested competition that was in and of itself fearsome, and could be said to have won the game simply with Foltest's assassination.

Except that he was just working for someone else.  As has always been the plot with the Witcher the real enemy is Nilfgaard, and as usual they are pretty much winning.

 

 

As Obsidian has said that they don't want write romance in game because they feel that they don't have resources to make them good enough. Which means that game will not give player option to have sex in romantic context in any form (explicit or implicit), therefore I would say that offering explicit sexual content in other contexts would not be the best possible choice that Obsidian could make. Which is why I think that any sexual content that Obsidian puts in game should be only implicit references to what is happened or has happened, and there probably should not be sexual content where player has agency over it like for example paying sex in brothel, as such content feels nearly always just player titillation, what Obsidian wanted to avoid with their decision not to do romances.

I think this terribly worded but a good point.

 

If Obsidian doesn't trust themselves to write a good romance without it boiling down to being there for playing "titillation" as you say... what makes anyone think PC driven sexual content in game won't boil down to the same?  As I said I suspect any sexual content in the game will only be there for sake of immersion, such as a brothel being in a city, or because it makes narrative sense.  I don't expect your actual player character to be able to engage in any sexual act of any kind to be honest. 

 

Just because there is a brothel (theoretically) in Defiance Bay doesn't mean you can actually ever go in it or partake of it's wares.  Just because there is sexual content somewhere in the game doesn't mean the PC is ever an actual participant in it.