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Update 80: State of the Project - From Alpha to Beta

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I'm glad you find yourself amusing, but I said nothing about a funding model. The news doesn't cover everything that could possibly be reported. They prioritize, and other stuff just never gets reported. That's a fact.

 

 

Considering I did post about the funding model and you quoted my post which included the funding model, then it's only correct to continue to post about the funding model to keep it in context. Despite your failed attempts to try and take it out of context.

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Considering I did post about the funding model and you quoted my post which included the funding model, then it's only correct to continue to post about the funding model to keep it in context. Despite your failed attempts to try and take it out of context.

I apologize for being so vague. I didn't say anything about funding models being a consideration for the general evening/daily news. News stories don't have funding models. Murders and crimes and city happenings don't have funding models.

 

Thus, you're the only one who connected the news not covering stories with funding models, with your sarcastic comment about how you could just see them doing just that.

 

Besides, the funding model is circumstantial here. There's nothing stopping a big, triple-A title that's publisher funded from pumping out daily/weekly production updates. The applicable factor here is the demand of the story. The story is comprised of information, which the journalist conveys to people. The effectiveness of the coverage is directly proportionate to the demand of the information.

 

Do you disagree?


Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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Thread pruned a bit. Time to calm down and knock off the personal insults and name calling...


“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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But I make it easier for you. 

 

"Writing article that covers same things what game's most recent kickstarter/forum/blog/etc. update covered is easy job, but it don't bring any readers"

With this sentence I mean that it is easy copy and paste what developers have told in their update about game, but I don't believe that it will actually bring any readers.

 

"and if you haven't followed updates by yourself then interviews with developers in events like E3 can easily produce ton of information that developers told in their blog over year ago"

 

With this sentence I mean that if journalist is not familiar with game and don't therefore have any knowledge what developers have previously told about their game it is highly probably that they will produce content that don't have any new information about game. 

 

So if anyone including myself goes to a gaming website and the website has copied and pasted something from a dev blog. No one will read it? It won't bring any readers? Even those readers who have never heard of the game before?

 

Wow, that's amazing. You're right. Whenever I go to a gaming website and see a game I've never seen before, I don't read it because it's obviously been copied and pasted from a dev blog. Amazing logic there.

 

And if journalists aren't familiar with the game, then here's an easy question for you. When journalists do write about it, how does that affect readers who have never heard of the game before?

 

 

Do you go read stuff that Obsidian tells about PoE's updates on gaming news sites or do you read them here or do you do both? I for example don't read any news articles about KS updates on games that I have backed and I don't usually read any information about projects that I haven't backed as they didn't interested me in first place. Of course my habits can't be use any indication about larger demographics. But I have noticed that news coverage about KS projects has fallen heavily from what they were in 2012 and begging of 2013, which tells me that there has not been enough people that have been interested of them.

 

I didn't say that there isn't any people that read about KS games, but most them are very small and even and they are aimed to much smaller audiences than what AAA games (which is reason why they had to go in KS in first place) , meaning that number of people that are interested of them is small at best and usually notable part of that audience has usually already backed the game during it KS. So when one is making decision of covering such game in event like E3 one has to think that will that game interest enough people that it is worth while to cover it instead of some other game (because in those events there are dozens if not hundreds of games and one person or even publication can cover all of them at least not throughly, especially when you are live feed journalist as those who you so keenly scold) and if one decides to cover such game one has to think what kind approach one takes on ones covering, as usually publications (especially live feeds) have limit how long articles they publish/how much time they can give for one game, which means that you had to decide what kind of information will interest most people. This is the phase which can be more difficult for crowd sourced games than with more traditional games, because traditional games have publishers and publishers have PR people whose job control information about game and give press most interesting tidbits of it. Where many/most crowd sourced games don't have professional PR people, but instead of all information comes directly from developers who often have little if any experience in selling games. Meaning that covering journalist will usually do more work to find those tidbits information that would interest their readers and that fact that don't help that people that are most interested about game probably know much more about game than what journalist can learn in that short time that they have time to write their cover about game, which make catering them harder what most journalist are used.

 

KS and other crowd sourced games nearly always interest much less people than AAA games.

Fans of KS and other crowd sourced games usually have much more information about those games than journalist themselves

There is usually no marketing for KS or other crowd sourced games, which means that people don't usually come to seek information about them, meaning that journalist has to make their coverage so interested that bush radio will bring readers for it or/and hope that readers/watchers/listeners of their publication will look them anyway.

There usually are no press kits for KS and other crowd sourced games, which means that journalist has usually do more work in gathering videos/pictures/audio about the games.

 

So in short:

I can understand why journalist would say that KS games are more difficult to cover than more traditional funded games and how this is general statement that don't actually concern all KS games. And I can also understand why journalist who has not covered crowd sourced games ever can say that they are strange bunch and he is clad that he don't have to cover them. But this don't mean that I think that covering KS or other crowd sourced games is impossible or that there is no readers KS/OCSG coverages, but that I can see why journalist would prefer to cover AAA games instead. 

 

Someone could say that covering crowd sourced game instead of AAA game is like covering low level (like Football league two) football match instead first level football (like premier league) match, meaning that there are people that interested about low level match, but number of people that are interested about first level match will in all likelihood dwarf those that are interested about low level match and probably also much higher percentage of those people that are interested about low level match go watch it on the spot, which can make it more difficult to comprehensively cover that match in way that it is worthwhile thing for publication to do.  

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Elerond, you've missed the point. I'm not talking about fans of a game. I'm talking about people who don't know anything about a Kickstarter game. And the journalists in question weren't complaining about how popular a game is, they were complaining about things like, 'the fans are in on it so no need to write about it'. What about all those people who don't know about the game?

 

So I'll ask the question again. When journalists do write about a Kickstarter game even if it's not something new from the developers, perhaps a 'look at this game if you haven't seen it' article, how does that affect readers who have never heard of the game before?

Edited by Hiro Protagonist II

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I apologize for being so vague. I didn't say anything about funding models being a consideration for the general evening/daily news. News stories don't have funding models. Murders and crimes and city happenings don't have funding models.

 

Thus, you're the only one who connected the news not covering stories with funding models, with your sarcastic comment about how you could just see them doing just that.

 

Besides, the funding model is circumstantial here. There's nothing stopping a big, triple-A title that's publisher funded from pumping out daily/weekly production updates. The applicable factor here is the demand of the story. The story is comprised of information, which the journalist conveys to people. The effectiveness of the coverage is directly proportionate to the demand of the information.

 

Do you disagree?

 

And I was talking about reporters. Reporters that report stories. And the same should apply to game reporters. Games shouldn't be reported on their merits, not their funding model which is what you and Elerond have been disputing.

 

Perhaps simplifying it to this basic premise. Reporters should report.  Done.

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Well in this thread you don't seem very calm, it seems quite important to you to show the people that these journalists are hacks. And I'm asking, what's the point, and you still didn't answer.

 

As to my personal agenda: I just felt that there are some misunderstandings happening. I was trying to explain what Lephys is doing and where that differs from what you're doing. I don't like discussions where people talk past each other without knowing it. The least I can do is to point it out. And maybe try and mediate a bit.

 

Looking at Lephys' posts, I don't see where they are idiotic and wasting time. I mean, you started a discussion about journalists and Kickstarter projects, and he gave his opinion, which is a more general (if "abstract" to you is negatively connotated) opinion than the one you presented, but a valid one nonetheless. And I think there's something to be said about trying to find an answer that is general.

 

 

I am quite calm so no need to concern yourself. And I did answer by replying to posts. As Sarex said, this is a forum. I replied to Osvir's post. Elerond and Lephys replied and disputed my post and I in turn replied to their points.

 

And thank you for pointing out that there are two different styles here. I'm talking about a real life example. Lephys as you point out is talking in abstraction. And stated above, it wasn't me that started this. I replied to Osvir's post.

 

So looking at Lephys' post, you don't see it wasting time when his posts are abstract and don't conform to the gaming industry where we've seen the gaming media industry can and do write about Kickstarter games. I'd rather deal with real life examples than hypothetical abstracts.

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Yeah, they should. Do they always? No. Sometimes they don't, or they neglect things. Can they report literally everything that happens, ever? No. So, they prioritize.

 

I'm not saying no reporters should ever want to report on Kickstarter projects, which is the idea against which you seem to be arguing. I'm simply saying that the decision of what to report on and what not to is generally made for actual reasons, whether it's the best decision in the world or not, rather than just arbitrarily.

 

I don't know if you've paid much attention to article links that get posted around here, but they often get oodles of comments along the lines of "Omg, NOTHING NEW IN THIS! This is all old info! LOLZ! We already knew this!".

 

So, yeah, I can honestly say that I can comprehend being a bit anxious to write an article about a game with at least 75,000 followers (and probably a lot more who either couldn't back at the time or are reserving their funds but are still quite interested in the game.)

 

So, I don't know about those particular journalists in that video (still can't watch it right now, even if I wanted to), but I understand that, as a factor, reporting on stuff god-knows-who already knows doesn't get you a very good reputation. Sure, there are probably people out there who don't know about the game, but you can bet that a LOT of the total people who'd be interested in such a project are in the loop, one way or another. Either they follow people's personal blogs, or they have friends who went all "Dude! Check out this Kickstarter!" I mean, I tell my girlfriend about a lot of the updates, and she's not even really much of a gamer.

 

There's only so much time in a day, and there's a heck of a lot of stuff going on that could be reported. People have to choose. You can't just hire infinite reporters, and report every single Kickstarter campaign that ever springs up.

 

Now, again, eventually, most big gaming news sites post previews and/or reviews, close to the release/launch of almost any game that's being distributed widely. I said it before, but some sites even do little pass-the-time phone games, etc. But, as for just following the thing in development? They're not really worried about it, and I can understand why.

 

As for that video, maybe those guys are just terrible, lazy people? I have no idea. I'm not defending those specific journalists. And that doesn't make this abstract, irrelevant text. It's simply a general evaluation of the journalism process. Which is applicable, because the journalism process actually exist, and specific/individual journalists are involved in this process, no matter who they are.

 

In a perfect world, all gaming journalists would simply wake up in the morning with a smile on their face, and go out hunting down all the games in existence, then just write articles on all of them. But that's not how the world works. Doesn't mean it shouldn't. Just means it doesn't.


Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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I'm not saying no reporters should ever want to report on Kickstarter projects, which is the idea against which you seem to be arguing.

 

No Lephys, that's not what I said.

 

These reporters in question find it all 'weird' and too 'hard' and actively don't want to have anything to do with it. That's quite odd because it all comes down to it's just reporting on a game, regardless of the funding model. They (the reporters in question) have this idea that 'all the fans know about it already' which is another reason they give to justify their reasons why they don't want to report on Kickstarter games. DESPITE the fact the rest of the gaming media can and do report on these games.

 

And it's not just about Pillars of Eternity. Sounds like you still haven't watched the video. They didn't even mention PoE. The journalists were talking about ALL KICKSTARTER games. They don't want anything to do with them. Because as one said, 'all the fans know about it already'. That seems like a very close minded view on what Kickstarter games are and who would benefit from reading stories about a Kickstarter game. eg. New Readers who don't know anything about the game. And existing fans to see the game reported in the main stream media. 

 

And no need for your prefect world examples. They don't add anything to the discussion. I'd rather deal with the real world.

Edited by Hiro Protagonist II

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Elerond, you've missed the point. I'm not talking about fans of a game. I'm talking about people who don't know anything about a Kickstarter game. And the journalists in question weren't complaining about how popular a game is, they were complaining about things like, 'the fans are in on it so no need to write about it'. What about all those people who don't know about the game?

 

So I'll ask the question again. When journalists do write about a Kickstarter game even if it's not something new from the developers, perhaps a 'look at this game if you haven't seen it' article, how does that affect readers who have never heard of the game before?

 

You missed my point. I didn't argue that journalist can't cover KS games for audience that have never heard of them, but it is more difficult cover KS games so that it's worthwhile to do compared to covering some AAA tittle. Because number of people that are interested to read/listen/watch coverage about most of KS games is so much smaller, especially if you cover them so that your coverage don't interest backers/fans of said game as they in high likelihood constitute major part of the people that are interested coverages of said game, than number of people that are interested about AAA tittles. 

 

So difficulty of covering KS don't come from writing some kind coverage about game, but writing such coverage that it will get enough readers to cover the time they spent to writing said article and not spending it to cover some other game that beforehand has more interest towards it.

 

Like for example do you interview author of new best seller, published by some big publisher or author of crowd funded and self published book that has sold couple thousand copies. Act of interviewing said authors so that you can tell about them and their book for someone that haven't heard them is same regardless of which author we speak, but writing such article about author of self published book that it will have more readers than article about  author of bestselling book is much harder task or even writing such article about author of self published book that it will cost of time that you spent writing it is more difficult task than what it would be if you write article about best selling author.

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You missed my point. I didn't argue that journalist can't cover KS games for audience that have never heard of them, but it is more difficult cover KS games so that it's worthwhile to do compared to covering some AAA tittle. Because number of people that are interested to read/listen/watch coverage about most of KS games is so much smaller, especially if you cover them so that your coverage don't interest backers/fans of said game as they in high likelihood constitute major part of the people that are interested coverages of said game, than number of people that are interested about AAA tittles. 

 

So difficulty of covering KS don't come from writing some kind coverage about game, but writing such coverage that it will get enough readers to cover the time they spent to writing said article and not spending it to cover some other game that beforehand has more interest towards it.

 

Like for example do you interview author of new best seller, published by some big publisher or author of crowd funded and self published book that has sold couple thousand copies. Act of interviewing said authors so that you can tell about them and their book for someone that haven't heard them is same regardless of which author we speak, but writing such article about author of self published book that it will have more readers than article about  author of bestselling book is much harder task or even writing such article about author of self published book that it will cost of time that you spent writing it is more difficult task than what it would be if you write article about best selling author.

 

 

I don't see it as a binary, an either / or decision when you can do both. We're talking about a website or magazine that has multiple pages. Why can't you do an interview in the morning for the AAA dev and an afternoon interview with the small indy dev? Or schedule different appointments on different days? Again, you can do both.

 

And we've seen gaming media sites report on Kickstarter games. So it's no problem for the gaming media industry to do so. That's the point you seem to want to ignore.

Edited by Hiro Protagonist II

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You missed my point. I didn't argue that journalist can't cover KS games for audience that have never heard of them, but it is more difficult cover KS games so that it's worthwhile to do compared to covering some AAA tittle. Because number of people that are interested to read/listen/watch coverage about most of KS games is so much smaller, especially if you cover them so that your coverage don't interest backers/fans of said game as they in high likelihood constitute major part of the people that are interested coverages of said game, than number of people that are interested about AAA tittles. 

 

So difficulty of covering KS don't come from writing some kind coverage about game, but writing such coverage that it will get enough readers to cover the time they spent to writing said article and not spending it to cover some other game that beforehand has more interest towards it.

 

Like for example do you interview author of new best seller, published by some big publisher or author of crowd funded and self published book that has sold couple thousand copies. Act of interviewing said authors so that you can tell about them and their book for someone that haven't heard them is same regardless of which author we speak, but writing such article about author of self published book that it will have more readers than article about  author of bestselling book is much harder task or even writing such article about author of self published book that it will cost of time that you spent writing it is more difficult task than what it would be if you write article about best selling author.

 

 

I don't see it as a binary, an either / or decision when you can do both. We're talking about a website or magazine that has multiple pages. Why can't you do an interview in the morning for the AAA dev and an afternoon interview with the small indy dev? Or schedule different appointments on different days? Again, you can do both.

 

And we've seen gaming media sites report on Kickstarter games. So it's no problem for the gaming media industry to do so. That's the point you seem to want to ignore.

 

 

We were talking about those journalist in that video, which one said he don't cover KS games and don't want cover them, and another said that he has covered at least three and will probably cover more and also said that covering KS games is more difficult than covering AAA games. Third, one who brought subject of KS games up, said that there were several small tittles on show floor that he has never heard of, many of them being games that have kickstarted. Fourth panelist didn't express her opinion about subject but seem to be amused about what others said about subject.

 

So GameSpot as publication did cover at least some of KS games that were in E3.

 

My point has been it is more difficult task to write worthwhile article about KS games, but not impossible or even so difficult that nobody does it, meaning that those journalist in that video in my opinion had justification to say that it is more difficult to cover KS games and covering them is different than covering AAA games. 

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We were talking about those journalist in that video, which one said he don't cover KS games and don't want cover them, and another said that he has covered at least three and will probably cover more and also said that covering KS games is more difficult than covering AAA games. Third, one who brought subject of KS games up, said that there were several small tittles on show floor that he has never heard of, many of them being games that have kickstarted. Fourth panelist didn't express her opinion about subject but seem to be amused about what others said about subject.

 

So GameSpot as publication did cover at least some of KS games that were in E3.

 

My point has been it is more difficult task to write worthwhile article about KS games, but not impossible or even so difficult that nobody does it, meaning that those journalist in that video in my opinion had justification to say that it is more difficult to cover KS games and covering them is different than covering AAA games. 

 

 

You're also excluding some choice commentary and body language from them as well. The girl even nodded in agreement with what they were saying. So even though she didn't say anything, she agreed with them just the same. But we'll just discount those facts. Especially those great comments they made. 

 

Here's a question. Would they have had the same problem writing articles about these games if they didn't know they were Kickstarter games? Ah, the bias of reporters and media.  :)

 

But lets forget that it doesn't stop the general gaming media writing articles about these games. In fact, it's been pointed out that some journalists are eager to write about these games. Yeah, must be really 'hard' writing about Kickstarter games when some journalists can't wait for the embargo to be lifted and are itching to tell everyone about their reviews. Which is a point you continue to ignore.

Edited by Hiro Protagonist II

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I've been away for a while, and am quite happy to read this update. Seems like the game is coming together nicely.  So to the devs: Good Work!


"I like cooking my family and my pets"

Use commas, don't be a psycho.

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But lets forget that it doesn't stop the general gaming media writing articles about these games. In fact, it's been pointed out that some journalists are eager to write about these games. Yeah, must be really 'hard' writing about Kickstarter games when some journalists can't wait for the embargo to be lifted and are itching to tell everyone about their reviews. Which is a point you continue to ignore.

 

And this ignores that what Obsidian did at E3 is a rather Un-Kickstarter like thing to do. Maybe even done to specifically address these concerns.

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As always, amazing work!


 

I want a barbarian yelling "SNEAK ATTACK!" as he comes charging.

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Well, I'm not particularly surprised (nor pissed off) by press-only presentation at the E3. I'm pretty sure it's for the best. However, how long is it going to take for RPS, IGN and co. to publish their impressions on PoE? Any idea?  

Edited by Baudolino05

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Again, I'd like to stress that there is nothing un-kickstarter like about spreading the word and generating hype about your game. Kickstarter is not exactly a sales platform. Although it's a rather new funding method, I'd say that a successful venture would go something like this:
backers->funding->game->hype-> :w00t: ->sales->profit-> :dancing: ->next game-> publisher funding ->backers: :bat:  :skull:, developer: o:) ->sequels->prequels-> :deadhorse:


Nothing gold can stay.

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We were talking about those journalist in that video, which one said he don't cover KS games and don't want cover them, and another said that he has covered at least three and will probably cover more and also said that covering KS games is more difficult than covering AAA games. Third, one who brought subject of KS games up, said that there were several small tittles on show floor that he has never heard of, many of them being games that have kickstarted. Fourth panelist didn't express her opinion about subject but seem to be amused about what others said about subject.

 

So GameSpot as publication did cover at least some of KS games that were in E3.

 

My point has been it is more difficult task to write worthwhile article about KS games, but not impossible or even so difficult that nobody does it, meaning that those journalist in that video in my opinion had justification to say that it is more difficult to cover KS games and covering them is different than covering AAA games. 

 

 

You're also excluding some choice commentary and body language from them as well. The girl even nodded in agreement with what they were saying. So even though she didn't say anything, she agreed with them just the same. But we'll just discount those facts. Especially those great comments they made. 

 

Here's a question. Would they have had the same problem writing articles about these games if they didn't know they were Kickstarter games? Ah, the bias of reporters and media.  :)

 

But lets forget that it doesn't stop the general gaming media writing articles about these games. In fact, it's been pointed out that some journalists are eager to write about these games. Yeah, must be really 'hard' writing about Kickstarter games when some journalists can't wait for the embargo to be lifted and are itching to tell everyone about their reviews. Which is a point you continue to ignore.

 

 

I think that you project your believes on her, that journalist may or may not agree with others, but I don't know as she didn't actually said anything about subject and because I would not care even if she agree with those that spoke as they didn't actually said anything that is wrong.

 

Same problems would be there even if journalist didn't know that game is KS, but they just could not adjust their coverage to respond on those problems.

 

I would point out that PoE isn't just any KS game as it is third most successful KS, it has well know studio behind it, it has publisher behind it, it has PR people in their booth addition to developers, it has hype created behind it that goes beyond its backers, and its E3 coverage wasn't released to public beforehand. So covering it is different task than covering some smaller KS game. And even with all that behind it you will not find PoE even from most of list that say that they have all games from E3 2014.

 

And in that video that journalist that said he has covered KS games, but said that it is more difficult than covering AAA games, also said that KS games do new things that one can't see in AAA games, which is why they are interesting to cover even if it isn't as easy as it would to cover AAA game. 

 

But it seems that we are in impasse, as in my opinion those journalist didn't say anything insulting, controversial or stupid about crow sourced games and were justified with their opinion, where you seem to think that they were absolute wrong with their opinions and are embarrassment to all gaming journalist that there are. 

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Classic stuff Elerond. She's clearly nodding in agreement when the others are talking. No projecting my beliefs. This is fact. But I can understand your denial and your continual avoidance of ignoring those journalists who do report and have no problem reporting Kickstarter games.

 

And I never said they're an 'embarrassment to all gaming journalists that there are'. Those are your words, not mine. In fact they probably represent the 1% who don't know how to do their job, while the other 99% of game journalists do know how to do their job which is why we see game sites do report on Kickstarter games. But you keep defending that 1% minority of those journalists who don't know how to do their job, those that find it all 'weird' and too 'hard' and are glad they don't want to do it, while the other 99% of journalists continue to report and are eager to do so.

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Thanks for taking that out of context Elerond.

 

You will also notice that the second and third sentence that you've neglected to quote is also part of that quote. All three sentences refers specifically to them. They are the gaming press. For some who accuses me of taking sentences out of context, you just did it yourself.

 

So you still haven't acknowledged the 99% of the industry who can and do write up articles for Kickstarter games and don't have a problem doing so. You're still championing that 1% that finds it all too 'hard' and 'weird'.

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Thanks for taking that out of context Elerond.

 

You will also notice that the second and third sentence that you've neglected to quote is also part of that quote. All three sentences refers specifically to them. They are the gaming press. For some who accuses me of taking sentences out of context, you just did it yourself.

 

So you still haven't acknowledged the 99% of the industry who can and do write up articles for Kickstarter games and don't have a problem doing so. You're still championing that 1% that finds it all too 'hard' and 'weird'.

 

Those sentences make them sound more competent and less out of touch?

 

Here you whole post:

"What that shows me is how incompetent and out of touch the gaming press is today. Don't know how to write up a story about a Kickstarter game? Kickstarter games are difficult? They need to get with the times."

 

I don't see how they do anything else than specify why they are incompetent and out of touch in your opinion, which don't in my opinion add anything such that it would matter when we consider my paraphrasing "they were absolute wrong with their opinions and are embarrassment to all gaming journalist that there are", which is reason why left them out, although I added link to your whole message so that people can check it out to see if I miss quote you.

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She's clearly nodding in agreement when the others are talking.

 

And you've repeatedly extrapolated from this one small insignificant video to the general state of the media here, as if these journalists are somehow representative of anything.

 

I think that is problematic because 1) obviously they're not and 2) they might not even show their actual opinion in this video. It's an E3 summary video that seems heavily improvised in parts. And if it's the first time you're in a video like this, and then the others (who are more experienced) say stuff like "I don't know how to deal with Kickstarter projects", you will not say "well that's just a stupid opinion". You'll nod in agreement because who the hell cares if you nod in agreement. (Noone but you, Hiro.)

That video isn't a thought-out article, it's just a video they made where they share their (probably partly improvised) opinions and thoughts about E3. It doesn't matter and it is not the definite proof of whatever you're trying to prove that you think it is.

 

So, again: Why do you keep talking about these journalists. Noone else is interested in them. You're the one who always comes back to them. Why? I've asked this numerous times already, but you always chose to answer with a completely different question.

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