Opus131 Posted June 5, 2004 Share Posted June 5, 2004 The Star Wars universe isn't "realistic" in that sense. The movies clearly indicate that one jedi (or force sensitive kid) can turn the tide of battle. You mean the new movies. Frankly, i don't take the prequels in considerarion, so your's a moot point. The original trilogy was realistic enought, and i clearly remember seeing wars fought with huge, technological monstruositities, starting from the Death Star, all the way to immense star fleets and those giganting walking command centers. Jedi are generally involved in individual conflict, not full fledged war. What's the use of a Jedi (particularly when there's so few of them) in such a large scale war ?!? The only Jedi that ever changed the 'tide of the battle' was Luke when he used the force to shoot his target without the aid of a an automated targetting system, and that didn't exactly made him much better of a Jedi either, he had to train with Yoda for that. Fact is, there's no reason to beleive the powers you start with in KOTORII are any worst then what your character ever had. In the end, nowhere does it says how strong of a Jedi your character was in the first place. Maybe you were a level 3 Jedi who receded to the lowest level after being out of practice for so long, seems rather reasonable to me, this isn't the story of a Jedi Master who receded to padawan levels (Kyle Katarn comes to mind)... Opus131 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taran'atar Posted June 5, 2004 Share Posted June 5, 2004 After reading the articles about KotOR2, one notices that you seemed to forgot to use the force? Are we having another Kyle Katarn on us? Wouldn't it be more simple if you just refused to use the force and later when you're trying to use it again, you'll notice that someone is preventing you from using it? That would make a good first mission, to find the person who's restraining you from using your force powers IMHO. Opinions? Seems to me that using the Force is a skill like any other. Without constant practice, the skill will deteriorate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediMasterRevan Posted June 5, 2004 Share Posted June 5, 2004 Maybe like Kyle Katarn he gave up the force because he was afraid of its power and he wanted to protect the people around him from himself if he used the force in the wrong manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiquag Posted June 6, 2004 Share Posted June 6, 2004 I don't think you "forgot" how to use the force in this game. Rather your force powers are deminished because you are out of practice. Your powers have become weak from lack of use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adria Teksuni Posted June 6, 2004 Share Posted June 6, 2004 I don't know, i thought it said you are a Jedi veteran of the Madalorian wars, as in, you are a Jedi who fought in the Mandalorian Wars, which doesn't necessarely mean you fought 'as' a Jedi. Furtheremore, didn't the council took your light saber ?!? And even so, how exactly do you fight 'as a Jedi' in an intergalactic war ?!? It's like saying the Japanise fought as 'samurai' in World War II There isn't a definite role for a Jedi in a futurist large scale conflict. Sure, the force can be useful in certain situations, but more often then not, a fully trained soldier will propably be far more useful as a unit in a technological warfare... Except the Jedi did fight in the Mandalorian Wars, Revan and Malak led them, remember? That was the start of the turning of Revan, when he defied the Council and went to go fight the Mandalorians against their wishes. As Fardragon said, many others followed. I haven't been able to find a "when" or "how" of the lightsaber loss yet for KoTOR II, but they did say that retrieving it will involve an optional quest, so (another assumption) you can either elect to just get it back or you can choose to do the quest to retrieve it. Unless you start on Dantooine (not an impossibility, but it doesn't sound like a mining asteroid thingie to me) if the Council took it I don't know how retrieving it could be "an hour or so" optional quest. Your Samurai analogy doesn't prove true. The Jedi are very capable in large groups as an effective force against a techically powered opposing group. Katanas couldn't deflect bullets, lightsabers can deflect blaster bolts. Samurai didn't have additional powers to assist them, Jedi do. Yes, they're better suited to surgical strike teams or other special forces units, but that doesn't mean that they can't hold their own in a large scale battle. Plus, they weren't on their own, Revan went to help the Republic, so it stands to reason the Jedi weren't out there by themselves, but as part of a regular army. Force support, perhaps? That's like saying a large group of Navy Seals wouldn't be able to do any good assigned to regular units in a big battle today. Never assume malice when stupidity is to blame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dereth Posted June 6, 2004 Share Posted June 6, 2004 *wrong thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shdy314 Posted June 6, 2004 Share Posted June 6, 2004 That's like saying a large group of Navy Seals wouldn't be able to do any good assigned to regular units in a big battle today. Almost but not quite. Sure the SEALs would all be great shots and work well under pressure etc. but they really wouldn't be SO much better than most other soldiers. Their amazing skills come from abilities they hone that cant be used in a full on ground battle. In such a situation their little more than really good soldiers. Which would make them a complete waste in such a battle. It'd be like sending regular grunts with state of the art equipment. The equipment may give them an edge but youre wasting/risking equipment that would be much better used by more highly trained personnel. It's simple risk vs. reward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaguars4ever Posted June 6, 2004 Share Posted June 6, 2004 That's like saying a large group of Navy Seals wouldn't be able to do any good assigned to regular units in a big battle today. Almost but not quite. Sure the SEALs would all be great shots and work well under pressure etc. but they really wouldn't be SO much better than most other soldiers. Their amazing skills come from abilities they hone that cant be used in a full on ground battle. In such a situation their little more than really good soldiers. Which would make them a complete waste in such a battle. It'd be like sending regular grunts with state of the art equipment. The equipment may give them an edge but youre wasting/risking equipment that would be much better used by more highly trained personnel. It's simple risk vs. reward. Exactly. That would be a classic case of redundancy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opus131 Posted June 6, 2004 Share Posted June 6, 2004 Except the Jedi did fight in the Mandalorian Wars, Revan and Malak led them, remember? So what, what's that got to do anything ?!? Revan lead the republic, he didn't charge the battle field flying around with the force cutting down giant spaceships with his light saber. The fact he was a Jedi didn't have any bearing whatsoever in the outcome of the Mandalorian wars. He was a strategical genious, that's what made the difference... The Jedi are very capable in large groups as an effective force against a techically powered opposing group. No they are not, get that out of your head. It takes one artillery unit to blast a Jedi (and his entire unit) out of existance for being stupid enought to charge the enemy in an open field. Jedi can hold their own against a small group of enemies (let's say, a few gard troops), but in an open battle field ?!? I don't think so. My Samurai analogy holds true because the skills of a Jedi are as useless in a Star Wars conflict as a Katana was in World War II. Unless of course we take the prequels into account, where wars are fought with weak, uncordinated droids and gunslings. Sh*t, i think the US army has better weapons than that... Yes, they're better suited to surgical strike teams or other special forces units, but that doesn't mean that they can't hold their own in a large scale battle. I guess my point went over your head. Sure they can hold their own in a large scale battle, not as Jedi though... Force support, perhaps? Yeah, i guess the force can be useful whislt the enemy if smoldering the entire planet to fine dust... That's like saying a large group of Navy Seals wouldn't be able to do any good assigned to regular units in a big battle today. Now it's you who are making nebolous analogies. A Jedi isn't comparable to a Navy Seal. A Navy Seal IS a soldier, trained for a specific role in the scope of modern warfare A Jedi training is not aimed at learning skills partaining open conflict. As a Jedi, he is fairly useless unless he learns the necessary skills. Remember that this whole argument started with the idea to prove that your character involvement in the Mandalorians wars didn't have any bearing in his personal growth as a Jedi, hence, the fact that you start with no XP in KOTORII without falling into the same trappings of Kyle Katarn, the guy who was Jedi Master and choose not to use the force, and thus loosing everything. Now that's a little extreme if you ask me... Opus131 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakron Posted June 6, 2004 Share Posted June 6, 2004 Good point, also if you take SEALs into doing something as SWAT do they will perform poorly since their traning simply does not cover typical SWAT situations. Jedi simply are not military trained, no matter how good you are with the force you cannot survive a durect hit of a turbo blaster and lets not go over how military units are trained in "combined arms" tactics as Jedi are not expected to fight wars. Also people missed Ep. II were Lucas once again shown the Jedi are not able to fight wars, most Jedi that were in the Arena battle were killed by simple battle droids, they LOST. Then we have Yoda, Jedi can be good tactical officers and that was what Revan was, Revan was the commander of the Republic forces that had some force users but I doubt Revan was sending the Jedi that join him on space suits attacking starships ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSun Posted June 6, 2004 Share Posted June 6, 2004 I lost the addy to the web site where I got this off of and people who play the P&P SW game may have all ready seen this but it was interesting and might have something to do with the lack of powers at the start. Considering he/she does not have their saber. Also may explain why finding the characters actual lightsaber is an option in the game. Might give a boost to the players Force Points or allow extra powers to be choosen. One of the rites of passage for a Jedi is for him or her to construct a lightsaber. The lightsaber acts as a focusing device, allowing the Jedi to reach a state of attunement with the Force which enhances his combat capabilities. The "Tales of the Jedi Companion" by West End Games gives a little information on the construction of lightsabers. The following is from that book, page 142 (with modifications for D20 compatibility): Most Jedi build several lightsabers over a lifetime, each saber more powerful and well-balanced than the last. These improvements relect the Jedi's increasing prowess in his use and understanding of the Force. The loss of a lightsaber can so demoralize a Jedi that he momentarily stumbles in his ability to access the Force (losing 1D (D6)/-2 (D20) in Force skills until he constructs a new blade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakron Posted June 6, 2004 Share Posted June 6, 2004 West End Star Wars RPG is responsible for many errors, a known one is the screw up with SSDs actual size. So take everything there with some grain of sault, expecialy if WotC Star Wars d20 contradicts then Being able to build a lightsabe is important as shown in the movies (reference: Vader lines on Ep. VI) but that is it, we seen that the Emperor had no visable lightsaber and he was more powerful in using the force that Luke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSun Posted June 6, 2004 Share Posted June 6, 2004 Being able to build a lightsabe is important as shown in the movies (reference: Vader lines on Ep. VI) but that is it, we seen that the Emperor had no visable lightsaber and he was more powerful in using the force that Luke. Never played the p&p game so I'll have to take your word on that. As for the comment above,as you stated no lightsaber was seen on him,he could have had one though. Still,point taken. Just a little something I found,could have nothing to with the game but I thought it was an interesting bit of info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakron Posted June 6, 2004 Share Posted June 6, 2004 Palpatine have no lightsaber because he does not need one, in the movies Palpatine was shown as a weak old man to hide his power, we need to remenber Yoda warning about Palpatine. Giving Palpatine a Lightsaber would be the same as giving one to Yoda, we do see that in Ep. II (and Palpatine will have one in Ep. III) but that pretty much lowers their characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSun Posted June 6, 2004 Share Posted June 6, 2004 Guess it all depends on how you look at it. Using one in battle I could see as perhaps being below them. However owning one does not mean it has to be used. But over all I see what you're saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnderAndrew Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 Some people in the Star Wars universe have warned against becoming reliant on the Force. Perhaps the MC hasn't had a reason to use the Force in a while, and thusly hasn't. It's good enough for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topaz Quasar Posted July 11, 2004 Share Posted July 11, 2004 There are some creatures that are force immune or are even able to create a bubble were the force cannot exist. The Vorg predate the Rakatans in terms of design and the vorg concept was pretty much full of it (in the sense they just pull a Borg) and as we can see the Rakatans are affected by force powers as the Vorg are (or were) not, of course BioWare simply taken the logical route of their race simply lost their ability to use the force due to the extensive use of the Star Forge as the Vorg simply end up that way because they made no sense of the Star Wars universe and so they end up doing a coop out with some crap about being "cursed" or some other bulls***. The fact EU is full of crap does not mean OE is forced to make crap as well ... The Rakata seemed to have some sort of genetic damage so they lost their "force sensitivity," but a few of them (like "The One") had an affinity and may have had some recessed genes. Since getting him to study for genetic differences was impossible, the Elder scientist turned to Revan in hopes of getting the original genetic info from the Temple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted July 11, 2004 Share Posted July 11, 2004 but that still wouldn't explain why you (presumably) start off with 0XP. Because 0 XP is an arbitrary value which in and of itself does not mean anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted July 11, 2004 Share Posted July 11, 2004 Ofensive? Lets see, the force is not something that can be "turn off", anyone that can use the force is able to do so. At lv1 a force user class can use a little of the Force, their skill is not enough to go around pushing Star Destoyers and so are very limited, expecialy since their "force-o-meter" (Vitality in Star Wars d20 and the blue bar in SWKotOR) is really not capable of pulling that kind of stunts. I remenber when fighting Juhami that my character could pull off about 2 force powers and that it. The ability to use Force powers is not a issue. Now the "mind wipe" was done because of the Revan twist, it was not really needed without it (we could been a jedi assigned to Bastila party and have it evolve from that, the story could have done in many ways) and the idea that the Jedi Order go around blocking the ability for people to use the force is a silly, if they had that ability there would be no Sith, the ability to use the force os something that cannot be explained, in fact every living being is capable of doing so (even the Vorg) but only if force sensative and that is a feat and you can never lose a feat in the d20 system. The idea of mind blocking is really not very good and its as dumb as "mind wipe" (with, BTW, was not what happened in SWKotOR, Revan mind was shattered by the damage and the Jedi Council simply implanted memories to give Revan a new life, if the Jedi Order did a "Mind Wipe" it would been a DARK SIDE action since they were destroying, do not get fooled by the Destroy Droid being a LS power since things like that in Star Wars d20 are very much dark side) since it puts some restriction that is neither supported by the game universe or mechanics. Also lets not get Jedi Knight series mechanics in here ... apples to oranges ... This isn't really an argument and for the most part I don't disagree with what you said. But from what I read on these forums, wasn't Exar Kun blocked from using the lightside of the force? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted July 11, 2004 Share Posted July 11, 2004 The original trilogy was realistic enought, and i clearly remember seeing wars fought with huge, technological monstruositities, starting from the Death Star, all the way to immense star fleets and those giganting walking command centers. That probably had a lot to do with the fact that there were no Jedi (evil or otherwise) in the original trilogy to fight a war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted July 11, 2004 Share Posted July 11, 2004 Palpatine have no lightsaber because he does not need one, in the movies Palpatine was shown as a weak old man to hide his power, we need to remenber Yoda warning about Palpatine. Giving Palpatine a Lightsaber would be the same as giving one to Yoda, we do see that in Ep. II (and Palpatine will have one in Ep. III) but that pretty much lowers their characters. Because you do not see a lightsaber does not mean that he does not have one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted July 11, 2004 Share Posted July 11, 2004 I think the PC goes off to the war. Revan turns to the darkside, fearing that you have been tainted by Revan they exile you from the Order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Prodigal_Knight Posted July 11, 2004 Share Posted July 11, 2004 After reading the articles about KotOR2, one notices that you seemed to forgot to use the force? Are we having another Kyle Katarn on us? Wouldn't it be more simple if you just refused to use the force and later when you're trying to use it again, you'll notice that someone is preventing you from using it? That would make a good first mission, to find the person who's restraining you from using your force powers IMHO. Opinions? The player didn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinIchiro Posted July 11, 2004 Share Posted July 11, 2004 If Katarn could do it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nartwak Posted July 11, 2004 Share Posted July 11, 2004 Katarn: "Man, screw this Jedi crap. I'm gonna be a smuggler." *Loses touch with Force* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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