Female gamers having a hard time in gaming communites

[aluminiumtrioxid]

if only one gender is treated differently that is inequality pure and simple

 

I'm sorry, but I have to agree with Paradox about that.

 

That's the thing about equality.

Giving a short (disadvantaged) person a box (assistance) so they can reach something (objective) is not the same as giving a tall (privileged) person a box too.

They don't need the box. They never needed the box. The existing circumstances are already biased in their favour.

 

It's not about giving everyone a thing and assuming that's "fair".

It's not, because that completely disregards the basic definition of "equal".

 

If you don't want segregation, maybe you should be tackling the individuals posting bigoted commentary or insulting women or insulting anyone that even remotely supports making this environment (and others) welcoming and inclusive and safe and friendly and, dare I say it, fun.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Nonek, I really enjoy your posts and respect your opinion so I hope  you don't take these debates personally.

 

But can we please move on from the  "abusive backwards cavemen" comments. As you have told me numerous times its just words and people must have thick skins on the Internet. By focusing on that and suddenly being offended I find it totally out of  character for you and completley hypercritical to what you have explained to me in the past about insults on places like RPGCodex and how people need to deal with comments

 

Lets focus on the topic and not what someone called you.

 

Now you are suggesting that a separate space for lady gamers wouldn't work or be the best way to address abuse of female gamers. But we also know in the Star Citizen example the Mods and all current measures don't do  enough as there a clear objective from the lady gamers to have there own area., How can you think that increased Mod influence would solve this? That is the status quo just trying to enhance it. Of course there will be some lady gamers who don't care and will join male dominated guilds and groups. But end of the day the problem of abuse towards women in certain games needs a paradigm shift and even though I agree in some respects it seems like admitting failure if groups of lady gamers want there own groups this should be accepted due to the circumstances ?

 

 

I am hardly dwelling on the insults you enjoyed Bruce merely asking the gentleman to refrain from them in the spirit of good discourse.

 

The mods of those forums have a duty of care to everybody whom frequents the place, it is their responsibility to police the place. As I said earlier creating artifical gender discriminatory hiding places does not tackle the issue, it merely allows the status quo to continue as you wish it to Bruce. If there are gender based groups it is a sign of failure and lack of oversight, if only one gender is treated differently that is inequality pure and simple, both are short term measures that merely mask the problem rather than deal with it.

 

If there is abuse then deal with it as such, if there are threats then deal with them as such and if there is "offense" taken at a little banter then let the offended deal with that themselves, and give back just as good as they recieved. If there is a difference of opinion then let lively free discourse under the sites guidleines ensue, rather than being strangled by offense that one cannot foretell will occur, or one simply does not mean to cause.

 

 

I never once said I enjoyed his caveman comments directed at certain members of the forum, please don't put words in my mouth

 

I am not focusing on his "insults", its his perspective on the topic I appreciated. Not his minor invective

[JadedWolf]

 

 I agree, but it should be clear that certain people refuse to change there behavior

 

 

 

You agree with SusurrusParadox saying to Nonek, who in my mind has not shown any sexist behaviour here at all: "You need to change your behaviour, and that of fellow men, so that people don't feel the need to have a separate safe space."?

 

What is implied here is that Nonek is responsible for the jerkish behaviour of other men, even though he has done nothing of the sort. And he should change that, presumably by being very ashamed of himself for being male and agreeing with whatever SusurrusParadox thinks is the best solution.

 

Sorry, but I don't subscribe to this, and neither should you.

[BruceVC]

 

if only one gender is treated differently that is inequality pure and simple

 

I'm sorry, but I have to agree with Paradox about that.

 

That's the thing about equality.

Giving a short (disadvantaged) person a box (assistance) so they can reach something (objective) is not the same as giving a tall (privileged) person a box too.

They don't need the box. They never needed the box. The existing circumstances are already biased in their favour.

 

It's not about giving everyone a thing and assuming that's "fair".

It's not, because that completely disregards the basic definition of "equal".

 

If you don't want segregation, maybe you should be tackling the individuals posting bigoted commentary or insulting women or insulting anyone that even remotely supports making this environment (and others) welcoming and inclusive and safe and friendly and, dare I say it, fun.

 

 

For me this is the crux of this debate, there is a massive difference in giving a small person a box to giving a tall person a box.

 

In this case we should be able to have different considerations for groups that feel they are discriminated against without the websites doing it being criticized

[Malcador]

Don't bring up the Star Citizen issue as an example of anything. Too much aura of SA/Goons at play in that thread for it to really be on the up and up.

[Malcador]

Also -  http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=257887508

 

[BruceVC]

 

 

 I agree, but it should be clear that certain people refuse to change there behavior

 

 

 

You agree with SusurrusParadox saying to Nonek, who in my mind has not shown any sexist behaviour here at all: "You need to change your behaviour, and that of fellow men, so that people don't feel the need to have a separate safe space."?

 

What is implied here is that Nonek is responsible for the jerkish behaviour of other men, even though he has done nothing of the sort. And he should change that, presumably by being very ashamed of himself for being male and agreeing with whatever SusurrusParadox thinks is the best solution.

 

Sorry, but I don't subscribe to this, and neither should you.

 

 

I don't think Nonek is a sexist at all, in fact he has only been polite to the various ladies on these forums when I've read his comments. Paradox doesn't know Nonek so his comment to me was more of a general statement  around how to address the issue. But Paradox is also an outsider so I can understand how if he didn't know Nonek he would have thought Nonek was being dismissive, hence his seemingly acerbic statement.

 

I don't think we should look to crucifying Paradox, if you leave out the whole cavemen comments he makes some good points?

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 

 I agree, but it should be clear that certain people refuse to change there behavior

 

 

 

You agree with SusurrusParadox saying to Nonek, who in my mind has not shown any sexist behaviour here at all: "You need to change your behaviour, and that of fellow men, so that people don't feel the need to have a separate safe space."?

 

What is implied here is that Nonek is responsible for the jerkish behaviour of other men, even though he has done nothing of the sort. And he should change that, presumably by being very ashamed of himself for being male and agreeing with whatever SusurrusParadox thinks is the best solution.

 

I think he used generic you.

[tajerio]

 

 

if only one gender is treated differently that is inequality pure and simple

 

I'm sorry, but I have to agree with Paradox about that.

 

That's the thing about equality.

Giving a short (disadvantaged) person a box (assistance) so they can reach something (objective) is not the same as giving a tall (privileged) person a box too.

They don't need the box. They never needed the box. The existing circumstances are already biased in their favour.

 

It's not about giving everyone a thing and assuming that's "fair".

It's not, because that completely disregards the basic definition of "equal".

 

If you don't want segregation, maybe you should be tackling the individuals posting bigoted commentary or insulting women or insulting anyone that even remotely supports making this environment (and others) welcoming and inclusive and safe and friendly and, dare I say it, fun.

 

 

For me this is the crux of this debate, there is a massive difference in giving a small person a box to giving a tall person a box.

 

In this case we should be able to have different considerations for groups that feel they are discriminated against without the websites doing it being criticized

 

 

To continue with the box metaphor, the suggestion of making separate protected spaces is not giving women a box.  It's putting them in a box.  It might be a safe box, it might be an inoffensive box, but a box it is and a box it will remain.

 

I am completely in agreement with the always erudite Nonek on this one.  Enforce discipline more stringently, instead of throwing up our collective hands and saying, "we can't stop it, so we'll just pack the problem away."

[JadedWolf]

 

 

 

 I agree, but it should be clear that certain people refuse to change there behavior

 

 

 

You agree with SusurrusParadox saying to Nonek, who in my mind has not shown any sexist behaviour here at all: "You need to change your behaviour, and that of fellow men, so that people don't feel the need to have a separate safe space."?

 

What is implied here is that Nonek is responsible for the jerkish behaviour of other men, even though he has done nothing of the sort. And he should change that, presumably by being very ashamed of himself for being male and agreeing with whatever SusurrusParadox thinks is the best solution.

 

Sorry, but I don't subscribe to this, and neither should you.

 

 

I don't think Nonek is a sexist at all, in fact he has only been polite to the various ladies on these forums when I've read his comments. Paradox doesn't know Nonek so his comment to me was more of a general statement  around how to address the issue. But Paradox is also an outsider so I can understand how if he didn't know Nonek he would have thought Nonek was being dismissive, hence his seemingly acerbic statement.

 

I don't think we should look to crucifying Paradox, if you leave out the whole cavemen comments he makes some good points?

 

 

Which is exactly why I responded as I did, giving him the advice not to alienate those who might otherwise be his allies, which resulted in one of your comrades poking fun at me with a hilarious meme.

[Chilloutman]

To be clear.

 

I agree that abusing female members of forums is stupid, ugly, retarded. On the other hand creating own 'women' area sounds 'un-needed' as long as mods keep eye on abuse report to quickly get rid of unwanted members. What is point on going on forum where you will not speak to 80% of population?

 

on Woman equality note someone put out (probably Bruce as I learned to know him)

 

I put aside clear difference of our bodies. I was yesterday on lunch with one of my colleague (women around 30) During conversation I make some misogynist joke and we start debate abou women equality. At start she stated that she thinks that she want to be treat equaly as male. After while she admit that she likes when mens open her doors, that she likes that her mate repair her car, take care of garden and house, giving her presents, taking her home by car from work... and she realise she would not want to do all those things equally. Not that she cant do them but she likes more things as they are.

 

And honestly I do like those things for my girlfriend and would feel uncomfortable if she would be totaly equal as me.

 

I live in EU. Not long ago someone in Brusel come up with idea that there will be quota on minimum number of womens in Management positions in private companies. This in my eyes vilify both men and women as some guys will not get job even if they are better then other female. On other hand as women I would feel strange that maybe I am in that position because of my skills but my genitalia.

 

Forced equality is really bad thing in my eyes. By creating more protection to one group make them

 

1) hated by others

2) degraded them because they cant take care of them-selfs

 

Sorry if it is too offensive for someone

[Ineth]

 

Then men should have their own space also, this is simple equality Bruce, if they have paid an equal amount of money then they should be treated exactly the same in all matters. To do otherwise is inequality, something that should never be tolerated.

It's not the same thing at all.

There is a huge bloody difference between creating safe spaces for people that receive rape & death threats as well as heaps of general abuse... and making a special club for bigots.

 

While Nonek's demand comes across as sulky and childish to me, the sweeping generalizations and exaggerations in your reply perplex me even more.

 

First of all, since when is this thread about "rape & death threats" ? Just throwing in some verbal bombs to try and "spice up" your argument, huh?

 

Secondly, don't you see any hypocrisy with instantly pigeon-holing the idea of exclusive men's clubs as "clubs for bigots" while at the very same time promoting the idea of exclusive women's clubs?

Women can can legitimately choose to interact with other women, but men choosing to interact with other men is per definition bigotry? That doesn't sound like a morally consistent world view to me.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

 I agree, but it should be clear that certain people refuse to change there behavior

 

 

 

You agree with SusurrusParadox saying to Nonek, who in my mind has not shown any sexist behaviour here at all: "You need to change your behaviour, and that of fellow men, so that people don't feel the need to have a separate safe space."?

 

What is implied here is that Nonek is responsible for the jerkish behaviour of other men, even though he has done nothing of the sort. And he should change that, presumably by being very ashamed of himself for being male and agreeing with whatever SusurrusParadox thinks is the best solution.

 

Sorry, but I don't subscribe to this, and neither should you.

 

 

I don't think Nonek is a sexist at all, in fact he has only been polite to the various ladies on these forums when I've read his comments. Paradox doesn't know Nonek so his comment to me was more of a general statement  around how to address the issue. But Paradox is also an outsider so I can understand how if he didn't know Nonek he would have thought Nonek was being dismissive, hence his seemingly acerbic statement.

 

I don't think we should look to crucifying Paradox, if you leave out the whole cavemen comments he makes some good points?

 

 

Which is exactly why I responded as I did, giving him the advice not to alienate those who might otherwise be his allies, which resulted in one of your comrades poking fun at me with a hilarious meme.

 

 

But the meme was funny hey Jadedmeister

[SqueakyCat]

Bruce - I think separate but equal is inherently unequal.

 

I certainly don't have the answers but, in this case, it seems to be a significant lack of moderation on the forum.  Behavior like that certainly wouldn't be tolerated on this forum.  Why aren't the abusers warned and then banned?  Again, I don't play MMO's, so maybe there are reasons.

 

Also, it's the internet so you really do need to take things in stride.  If you're easily offended, the Codex is not going to be the place for you.  Should they change their forum guidelines (do any really exist? ) to accommodate others?  In my opinion, no.  It's my choice to view their forum, or not, or only view certain sections.

 

Harassment of any kind should be swiftly handled by the Moderators of a forum in compliance with the forum rules. 

 

That's my take on the situation under discussion, so I will now take my leave.  I also have to formulate a dinner plan. 

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

I am completely in agreement with the always erudite Nonek on this one.  Enforce discipline more stringently, instead of throwing up our collective hands and saying, "we can't stop it, so we'll just pack the problem away."

 

 

Well, this could work if anyone here (say, the mods) was interested in doing that.

 

I was yesterday on lunch with one of my colleague (women around 30) During conversation I make some misogynist joke and we start debate abou women equality. At start she stated that she thinks that she want to be treat equaly as male. After while she admit that she likes when mens open her doors, that she likes that her mate repair her car, take care of garden and house, giving her presents, taking her home by car from work... and she realise she would not want to do all those things equally. Not that she cant do them but she likes more things as they are.

And honestly I do like those things for my girlfriend and would feel uncomfortable if she would be totaly equal as me.

 

Well, yes, there are women who prefer traditional gender roles, and they shouldn't be judged because of that. On the other hand, there are those who don't, and they suffer pretty serious repercussions for deviating from the norm. I think it's understandable that they want to live in a world where this doesn't happen. It's fundamentally unjust and we'd be better off without the societal structures that uphold it.

 

 

I live in EU. Not long ago someone in Brusel come up with idea that there will be quota on minimum number of womens in Management positions in private companies. This in my eyes vilify both men and women as some guys will not get job even if they are better then other female. On other hand as women I would feel strange that maybe I am in that position because of my skills but my genitalia.

Forced equality is really bad thing in my eyes. By creating more protection to one group make them

1) hated by others
2) degraded them because they cant take care of them-selfs
 

 

Funny thing about this sort of stuff (less women in engineering or management jobs) is that the studies seem to suggest that the factors behind it have more to do with societal pressure than biological predispositions. If we accept this as a fact, I strongly believe that any community (or nation, or even humanity as a whole) is chaining its true potential by discouraging about half of the population's best and brightest (assuming equal distribution of talent between men and women, which we should, as per the aforementioned studies) to work on these fields. We need to get rid of the perception that women have no place in STEM and management, and for that, we kind of need those quotas for a period of time (while societal perceptions reassert themselves).

 

At least this is my take on the matter, which might be completely wrong.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Then men should have their own space also, this is simple equality Bruce, if they have paid an equal amount of money then they should be treated exactly the same in all matters. To do otherwise is inequality, something that should never be tolerated.

It's not the same thing at all.

There is a huge bloody difference between creating safe spaces for people that receive rape & death threats as well as heaps of general abuse... and making a special club for bigots.

 

While Nonek's demand comes across as sulky and childish to me, the sweeping generalizations and exaggerations in your reply perplex me even more.

 

First of all, since when is this thread about "rape & death threats" ? Just throwing in some verbal bombs to try and "spice up" your argument, huh?

 

Secondly, don't you see any hypocrisy with instantly pigeon-holing the idea of exclusive men's clubs as "clubs for bigots" while at the very same time promoting the idea of exclusive women's clubs?

Women can can legitimately choose to interact with other women, but men choosing to interact with other men is per definition bigotry? That doesn't sound like a morally consistent world view to me.

 

 

I think you are misunderstanding something, I hope I can explain it properly

 

There is a big difference between a group of men who create a mens only club because they don't respect women or think they are superior to women ( this was historically the reason for  most mens clubs) and a group of women who want a womens only club because they are the victim of abuse from men

 

In other words ask yourself honestly how many men you know on the Internet who  have told you they have been the victims of excessive sexual verbal abuse from women on forums or games? I don't know any but I can guarantee every lady you know who frequents the Internet has been the victim at least once of sexism or misogyny

[BruceVC]

Bruce - I think separate but equal is inherently unequal.

 

I certainly don't have the answers but, in this case, it seems to be a significant lack of moderation on the forum.  Behavior like that certainly wouldn't be tolerated on this forum.  Why aren't the abusers warned and then banned?  Again, I don't play MMO's, so maybe there are reasons.

 

Also, it's the internet so you really do need to take things in stride.  If you're easily offended, the Codex is not going to be the place for you.  Should they change their forum guidelines (do any really exist? ) to accommodate others?  In my opinion, no.  It's my choice to view their forum, or not, or only view certain sections.

 

Harassment of any kind should be swiftly handled by the Moderators of a forum in compliance with the forum rules. 

 

That's my take on the situation under discussion, so I will now take my leave.  I also have to formulate a dinner plan. 

 

I hear you squeakymeister. You make some good points and as a lady gamer I am sure you have some insight we don't have. Let me ask you a question though, have you ever been a victim of sexism when you told people you were female. And if so how did you respond?

 

PS Whats for dinner and what time must I get there

[Meshugger]

Yes, what a wonderful idea to give the "disadvantaged" an own safe place. Let's add the the tag-line "Separate, but equal" as well. History has shown that it has worked bef....ohwait!

[Gfted1]

...how many men you know on the Internet who  have told you they have been the victims of excessive sexual verbal abuse from women on forums or games? I don't know any but I can guarantee every lady you know who frequents the Internet has been the victim at least once of sexism or misogyny

Happens to me all the time and Im DAMN tired of being treated like a piece of meat.

[Malcador]

In other words ask yourself honestly how many men you know on the Internet who  have told you they have been the victims of excessive sexual verbal abuse from women on forums or games? I don't know any but I can guarantee every lady you know who frequents the Internet has been the victim at least once of sexism or misogyny

Well for forums the solution isn't to have a "safe space" just for them but to just moderate the forum - men will be catching abuse from other men and that needs dealing with so a catch all helps. For games themselves, meh, easy enough to have a moderated servers run by communities or just play with friends. For MMOGs, that's a bit harder as well, they have to leave their "safe space" some time - and that's not helping the community at all get better, for whatever metric one wants to use for that.

[SusurrusParadox]

 

You're quite mistaken if you think that's the case, heh. Even a cursory glance of the threads in the C&C forum would disprove that. 

 

It's funny how sanctimony and preaching is a common factor with you types.

I especially like how their first posts ever on the forum are to attack everyone that doesn't agree. Classy.

 

On the contrary, my first posts were related to the latest update.

Just because I then noticed a thread about women in gaming and picked up on several users being less-than-respectful towards people for inane reasons doesn't somehow magically make my posts less valid.

I don't think it's terribly "classy" to harbour narrow-minded archaic views on whether other people are actually equal and whether they should be treated with some base level of respect.

 

(Although if you think those are "attacks" then that's rather, uh, cute. Heh, if I didn't prefer to avoid being banned and actually was going to engage in attacking others then I'd certainly use less restrained language than I did. I'd also not have gone into as much detail in an attempt to get people to understand.)

 

Also, "you types" ?

I don't think you actually know my type, and frankly that sort of prejudicial nonsense from someone marked 'moderator' seems a tad farcical.

*ahem*

But what do I know, I'm just some newb, right?

[Malcador]

Read a bit better, that was my post not Gfted's and thankfully I am not a moderator. So might want to check the victimized rant a little bit.

[SusurrusParadox]

 

 

 I agree, but it should be clear that certain people refuse to change there behavior

 

 

 

You agree with SusurrusParadox saying to Nonek, who in my mind has not shown any sexist behaviour here at all: "You need to change your behaviour, and that of fellow men, so that people don't feel the need to have a separate safe space."?

 

What is implied here is that Nonek is responsible for the jerkish behaviour of other men, even though he has done nothing of the sort. And he should change that, presumably by being very ashamed of himself for being male and agreeing with whatever SusurrusParadox thinks is the best solution.

 

Sorry, but I don't subscribe to this, and neither should you.

 

That was a general comment, actually.

You know, aimed at all men?

(Yes, all men. There's this thing called responsibility and as members of group [whatever] one should generally take at least some responsibility for the actions of others within that group. Not personal responsibility, but things as simple as "Hey, that's not okay. Knock it off." when someone acts inappropriately.)

So yes, Nonek (as a man) should probably speak up when another person that is also a man says something that's incredibly stupid and offensive and reflects poorly on everyone else that happens to also be a man.

(That seems like enlightened self-interest, no? If someone does something that's both bigoted nonsense and makes you look bad, you tell them to knock it off?)

 

I was under the impression this thread involved arguments and discussion, not a series of personal conversations between pairs of people.

Don't assume everything was aimed at one person just because the bulk of my response was to counter points they had raised.

(In other words, "Don't talk it personally".)

[Or take it personally, if you prefer the traditional form.]

 

Oh, and the "abusive backwards cavemen" wasn't aimed at Nonek either.

I believe he's mistaken and has faulty reasoning, but I don't believe he's backwards nor has he actually been abusive.

Wrong, but not stupid.

(Again, general comments on the overall thread/forums being included as part of a full argument.)

 

Although I don't know, maybe he does live in a cave and is remarkably sensitive about it. In which case, I apologise & I'm sure the cave is lovely.

Edited May 15, 2014 by SusurrusParadox

[SusurrusParadox]

Read a bit better, that was my post not Gfted's and thankfully I am not a moderator. So might want to check the victimized rant a little bit.

Apologies. I mistyped.

(I'm sure the quoted text in the input box had your names switched about.)

 

That said, I do believe the comment still holds true in as much as Gfted1 is complicit in allowing the more crude commentary to go unchecked.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

Read a bit better, that was my post not Gfted's and thankfully I am not a moderator. So might want to check the victimized rant a little bit.

Apologies. I mistyped.

(I'm sure the quoted text in the input box had your names switched about.)

 

That said, I do believe the comment still holds true in as much as Gfted1 is complicit in allowing the more crude commentary to go unchecked.

 

 

Well, this ain't rpg.net, sonny.