Israel vs Palestine

[Orogun01]

Ask John Kerry, he's the expert on Israel's precision bombing and sarcasm.

 

Still, dude does actually have a point, though a narrow one that's dressed up in rhetoric and reliant on the 'someone else did something worse sometime in the past argument' (and one which works for Hamas's bombardment as well as his). They'd still be far better off minus the rhetoric and not trying to pretend that they're super accurate ultra humanitarians when it's patently obvious they're neither though.

Your post is voiced in such a way that I can't tell if its sarcastic or not. God job on adding to my confusion!

[Gorgon]

 

 

But isn't that Hamas' objective?

 

This just struck me with tremendous clarity.

 

Hamas are not a democratic institution. They get their legitimacy from the suffering of their own people. ...And all they have to do in order to enjoy that permanently is keep firing rockets.

 

...Unless I guess Israel called their bluff, by just accepting permanent rocket barrage. But then what nation state is going to live with The Blitz constantly?

If the threat from the rockets was that great the IDF would have invaded en masse, like they did when Hezbollah had their rocket offensive. The IDF know air strikes and artillery won't solve the problem which is exactly what makes the strikes punitive rather than decisive. 300+ people have died, if not for nothing then for very little gained in both Hamas capacity and Israli security.

 

I don't understand why they would set out to be punitive in that environment. For the benifit of the voters ? To be seen to be doing something ?

[Wrath of Dagon]

Israel can't just do nothing while rockets are being fired all over the country. Even if most have been shot down or hit empty land, quite a few have hit civilian targets. Hamas refuses to accept a ceasefire. People can't live constantly running for the shelter for weeks on end. It's amazing there are some who just can't understand that. The only option for Israel right now is to continue the ground offensive until the rocket fire ceases one way or the other.

 

In other news, for the second time UN finds Hamas rockets in their schools : http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/07/22/hamas-hiding-rockets-in-schools-children-playgrounds-israel-and-un-agency-say/

[Hiro Protagonist]

What better way to learn all about this stuff than in a school?

[Volourn]

Hamas hates Palestinians as much if not more than they hate Isrealis. They lvoe it when Palestinians are murdered. In fact, they love it so much they loved to murder Palestinians personally including shoving them off buildings for opposing Hamas.

 

\Palestinians deserve to live in peace but they never will as long as Hamas has powered and Hamas will have power as long as many Palestinians get  brainwashed by Hamas.

 

The difference between Hamas and Isreal. isreal's goal is to protect isrealis. Hamas' goal is to destroy isreal. That's it. They don't want to protect Palestinians. Plenty of Aravs/Plaestinian or otherwise manage to live in Isreal proper in peace. Go figure.

[Gromnir]

 

 

 

But isn't that Hamas' objective?

 

This just struck me with tremendous clarity.

 

Hamas are not a democratic institution. They get their legitimacy from the suffering of their own people. ...And all they have to do in order to enjoy that permanently is keep firing rockets.

 

...Unless I guess Israel called their bluff, by just accepting permanent rocket barrage. But then what nation state is going to live with The Blitz constantly?

If the threat from the rockets was that great the IDF would have invaded en masse, like they did when Hezbollah had their rocket offensive. The IDF know air strikes and artillery won't solve the problem which is exactly what makes the strikes punitive rather than decisive. 300+ people have died, if not for nothing then for very little gained in both Hamas capacity and Israli security.

 

I don't understand why they would set out to be punitive in that environment. For the benifit of the voters ? To be seen to be doing something ?

 

...

 

wait a sec. the fact that the idf didn't go in and carpet-bomb the place and is instead putting their own civilians and soldiers at risk to be more surgical is proof that their actions is "punitive rather than decisive"? did that make sense?

 

hamas was able to dictate where this fight would take place. hamas wanted the fight to take place in one o' the most densely populated places on earth. hamas, an organization with the expressed purpose o' destroying israel through force o' arms, was put in power by the people o' gaza. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-13331522 who the hell democratically elects a terrorist organization into power? the pictures o' wailing palestinian women as they stand over the bodies o' their broken children is cause for grief, but there is a great deal o' responsibility to go around when we reference civilian casualties. blame idf, but you also better blame hamas and the not-so-innocent civilians who voted hamas into power if you is gonna be honest.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

But isn't that Hamas' objective?

 

This just struck me with tremendous clarity.

 

Hamas are not a democratic institution. They get their legitimacy from the suffering of their own people. ...And all they have to do in order to enjoy that permanently is keep firing rockets.

 

...Unless I guess Israel called their bluff, by just accepting permanent rocket barrage. But then what nation state is going to live with The Blitz constantly?

If the threat from the rockets was that great the IDF would have invaded en masse, like they did when Hezbollah had their rocket offensive. The IDF know air strikes and artillery won't solve the problem which is exactly what makes the strikes punitive rather than decisive. 300+ people have died, if not for nothing then for very little gained in both Hamas capacity and Israli security.

 

I don't understand why they would set out to be punitive in that environment. For the benifit of the voters ? To be seen to be doing something ?

 

...

 

wait a sec. the fact that the idf didn't go in and carpet-bomb the place and is instead putting their own civilians and soldiers at risk to be more surgical is proof that their actions is "punitive rather than decisive"? did that make sense?

 

hamas was able to dictate where this fight would take place. hamas wanted the fight to take place in one o' the most densely populated places on earth. hamas, an organization with the expressed purpose o' destroying israel through force o' arms, was put in power by the people o' gaza. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-13331522 who the hell democratically elects a terrorist organization into power? the pictures o' wailing palestinian women as they stand over the bodies o' their broken children is cause for grief, but there is a great deal o' responsibility to go around when we reference civilian casualties. blame idf, but you also better blame hamas and the not-so-innocent civilians who voted hamas into power if you is gonna be honest.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

I would say you both make valid points around the Israeli strategy and what motivates them

 

The initial Israeli reaction to the rocket attacks was both punitive and strategic. The idea is that Hamas stops firing rockets into Israel because of the consequences to the Palestinians in Gaza, but because the Israelis are using targeted strikes there is no risk to them around casualties. Its a win win for them, they stop the rocket attacks without ground troops

 

But of course its clear that Hamas has very little regard for the lives of the Palestinians and actually want an IDF ground invasion so they can score political capital. This may sound bizarre as most people will ask "" how can Hamas think this is some kind of victory "

 

But just the fact that they have killed 2 dozen or so Israelis and kidnapped one they will spin this as a victory on certain levels. Also another important difference between the two sides is that the Israelis do care about the sanctity of a single Jewish life, Hamas is quite prepared to have dozens of Palestinians killed if it brings attention to there cause. Its like that kidnapped Israeli soldier who was finally returned to Israel and dozens of Hamas militants were released as a prisoner swop

 

So end of the day I will argue that its extremely difficult to wage conventional war against a group like Hamas because they feel the political agenda is more important than the welfare of there citizens

[Gorgon]

The ground operations are for the tunnels not the rockets. Also, the fact that it could be worse is hardly an endorsement now is it. It could always be worse.

[BruceVC]

The ground operations are for the tunnels not the rockets. Also, the fact that it could be worse is hardly an endorsement now is it. It could always be worse.

 

The end result will be the  same, the IDF will end the ground invasion when the rocket attacks have ended. They are committed to this approach now and the tunnels will also be closed

Edited July 23, 2014 by BruceVC

[Gromnir]

The ground operations are for the tunnels not the rockets. Also, the fact that it could be worse is hardly an endorsement now is it. It could always be worse.

ground operations is aimed at tunnels and taking out hamas assets. those assets include rockets... which is why the idf makes sure to let folks know every time they find a cache o' rockets. now that the egyptian escape tunnels is unavailable to hamas, the idf can actual capture hamas persons and material.  oh, and so we don't forget, you were complaining o' disproportionate casualties Before the ground invasion, so forgive us if you is coming off as a bit disingenuous. 

 

go back and look at a year-by-year breakdown o' rocket attacks. the year following the last significant ground incursion into gaza by the idf also saw the fewest rocket attacks in recent memory. is kinda sad that a mere 150 attacks is considered a major accomplishment. honestly, how screwed-up is it that 150 attacks is considered a win for israel?  

 

am recalling when we lived in the midwest and there were tornado alerts. as a kid it were kinda scary but as we grew older we got kinda blasé about tornado alerts. they were so random. there were nothing you could genuine do to prepare. get in your basement and make sure you got a first aid kit on hand... listen to radio waiting for alert to end. were maybe a few times a year we had to endure such. tornadoes were act o' God kinda stuff. take similar randomness and fear o' having your home explode but make it not the result o' weather but o' some terrorist group, and make such moments occur literal hundreds or thousands o' times a year. 

 

...

 

150 is a good year? 

 

the idf wanted this fight. bad on them. hamas wanted this fight. bad on them. regardless, the disproportionate casualty numbers is hardly surprising or meaningful. numbers is disproportionate 'cause o' how and where hamas is fighting... and the civilian population knew what hamas was about when they freaking went and elected hate-spewing suicide bombers into power. we feel bad for folks in gaza and israel, but am not seeing how folks can be so shocked and appalled given how predictable this all were.  

 

only thing more predictable is the global outrage. by mid/end next month, it is likely the idf action will largely be finished and some new world tragedy will move to page 1. israel will be able to enjoy a peaceful 2015 in which they only get ~150 rocket attacks, and life will be even worse in gaza as ordinary folks try and rebuild their homes and lives while hamas uses money to build new tunnels and rockets in preparation for the next conflict two years hence. the global outrage will fade... predictably. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited July 23, 2014 by Gromnir

[TrashMan]

Israel can't just do nothing while rockets are being fired all over the country.

 

They should improve the ballistic shield.

Or conduct proper surgical strikes.

 

Or you know... lift the blockade of Gaza.

 

 

 

blame idf, but you also better blame hamas and the not-so-innocent civilians who voted hamas into power if you is gonna be honest.

 

Fine, but then we must also blame every single voter in Israel.

Let's not forget how exactly Israel was formed and what the origins of it's leadership is (terrorists)

[Malcador]

IDF should not have bothered with airstrikes at all and just rely on ground forces to get the work done.  500 lb bombs aimed well still take out large areas and kill bystanders.

 

 

who the hell democratically elects a terrorist organization into power? the pictures o' wailing palestinian women as they stand over the bodies o' their broken children is cause for grief, but there is a great deal o' responsibility to go around when we reference civilian casualties. blame idf, but you also better blame hamas and the not-so-innocent civilians who voted hamas into power if you is gonna be honest.

 

Interesting line of thought.  Heh, reminds me of the jackal that said every Israeli is a target due to their mandatory military service (I guess the Orthodox hawks are safe in that scheme).

Edited July 23, 2014 by Malcador

[BruceVC]

IDF should not have bothered with airstrikes at all and just rely on ground forces to get the work done.  500 lb bombs aimed well still take out large areas and kill bystanders.

 

 

 

Yeah that's the point I've made several times, the IDF should have used a ground invasion from the beginning. Yes they would suffer more casualties but they reduce civilian deaths and allow it allows them to be more surgical

[Volourn]

"Or you know... lift the blockade of Gaza."

 

Talk to Egypt.

[Gromnir]

"Fine, but then we must also blame every single voter in Israel.

Let's not forget how exactly Israel was formed and what the origins of it's leadership is (terrorists)"

 

you need a history lesson. don't just read those new 50 page history textbooks hamas has been using in gaza schools. scroll back up and you may read how israel was formed. there were indeed more than a few zionist terrorists operating in the british mandate, but your suggestion, while near 100 years remote (or 66 depending on how sherman sets the way-back machine) is such a ridiculous overstatement it don't even bear consideration.  ultimately, the way israel were formed is that the british gave up and left the mandate territory. a day later, every bordering arab nation attacked the jews living in the mandate region (1/3 of the population) with the intention 'o driving them out or exterminating them. contrary to most prognostications, the jewish folks in the mandate survived. 

 

oh, and thanks to the parliamentary system, many nations got elements in power the majority would otherwise wish to ignore. am equal able to call britain and france fascist states 'cause they has had some nut jobs gain political power from time-to-time.

 

"Interesting line of thought.  Heh, reminds me of the jackal that said every Israeli is a target due to their mandatory military service (I guess the Orthodox hawks are safe in that scheme)."

 

the whole civilian casualties bit is fluid to the point o' near meaninglessness. yeah, am suspecting there is a line that needs not be crossed, but no doubt the hypocrisy o' the situation is not lost on hamas and the idf. US and nato allies has all, at one time or another, ignored the dangers faced by civilians during various conflicts. russia and former soviet bloc is as bad if not worse. heck, the chinese has been targeting its own populations more than foreign powers for quite some time.  civilian casualties look bad on tv... the folks sitting safe at home can wring their hands and lament the terrible loss o' human life. 

 

israel is likely most concerned 'bout civilian casualties 'cause o' the need for continued western (US) support. genuine peace negotiations has not paid off for israel in the past and we suspect that they is only pretending to go through the motions nowadays. 

 

hamas is concerned 'bout civilian casualties in a wholly perverse manner. why should Gromnir care 'bout civilian casualties in gaza if hamas clearly does not? sadly, we still do care 'bout civilian casualties in gaza, 'cause we ain't as monstrous and desperate as hamas.  the terrorist suicide-bombers that the people in gaza elected has managed to force the idf into a confrontation in the streets o' gaza. well congrats to them on their brilliant tactical maneuvering that will get many gazans killed and make many more homeless, and all for an ultimately pointless conflict that will be repeated two or three years from today. 

 

am not certain why some folks feel the need to paint one side or the other as the good guys or as victims.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited July 23, 2014 by Gromnir

[Orogun01]

 

IDF should not have bothered with airstrikes at all and just rely on ground forces to get the work done.  500 lb bombs aimed well still take out large areas and kill bystanders.

 

 

 

Yeah that's the point I've made several times, the IDF should have used a ground invasion from the beginning. Yes they would suffer more casualties but they reduce civilian deaths and allow it allows them to be more surgical

 

I think you just gave the reason why they didn't do it, they really can't or won't allow themselves to get into an actual conflict where they could lose manpower. Its a kind of admirable forward thinking strategy, play the war today whilst preparing for the wars to come.

 

I'm more concerned about the lack of action by Western powers, I wish I had a reason to explain why that didn't become a conspiracy theory.

[Gfted1]

I'm more concerned about the lack of action by Western powers, I wish I had a reason to explain why that didn't become a conspiracy theory.

I think it could be as simple as "better to fight in their yard than ours". Also, it gives us a permanent land based entry point into the ME should we ever need it.

[Gromnir]

 

 

IDF should not have bothered with airstrikes at all and just rely on ground forces to get the work done.  500 lb bombs aimed well still take out large areas and kill bystanders.

 

 

 

Yeah that's the point I've made several times, the IDF should have used a ground invasion from the beginning. Yes they would suffer more casualties but they reduce civilian deaths and allow it allows them to be more surgical

 

I think you just gave the reason why they didn't do it, they really can't or won't allow themselves to get into an actual conflict where they could lose manpower. Its a kind of admirable forward thinking strategy, play the war today whilst preparing for the wars to come.

 

I'm more concerned about the lack of action by Western powers, I wish I had a reason to explain why that didn't become a conspiracy theory.

 

am not being snarky when we ask which western powers and what action you would wish. the brits were there for decades.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[BruceVC]

 

 

IDF should not have bothered with airstrikes at all and just rely on ground forces to get the work done.  500 lb bombs aimed well still take out large areas and kill bystanders.

 

 

 

Yeah that's the point I've made several times, the IDF should have used a ground invasion from the beginning. Yes they would suffer more casualties but they reduce civilian deaths and allow it allows them to be more surgical

 

I think you just gave the reason why they didn't do it, they really can't or won't allow themselves to get into an actual conflict where they could lose manpower. Its a kind of admirable forward thinking strategy, play the war today whilst preparing for the wars to come.

 

I'm more concerned about the lack of action by Western powers, I wish I had a reason to explain why that didn't become a conspiracy theory.

 

 

When you say lack of action from Western powers do you mean in a mediation capacity and encouraging/forcing  the Israeli's and Hamas to negotiate ?

 

I'm  echoing Gromnirs question

Edited July 23, 2014 by BruceVC

[Gfted1]

That's easy imo. Cut off the ~3 Billion in annual "aid" and technology and they will fold like a beach chair.

[Gromnir]

That's easy imo. Cut off the ~3 Billion in annual "aid" and technology and they will fold like a beach chair.

and that is one o' the problems... and why we asked which western powers. US only has one real ally in the middle east: israel. not only that, most americans, even with mounting casualties in gaza, support the idf actions.  so, take US sanctions off the table for the nonce as they don't seem at all realistic. sure, if death toll gets too high, the US will threaten, by which time the idf will probable be moping up and preparing for the next major hamas conflict 2 years from now. the only reason we can rationalize israel suffering so much o' the ridiculous rocket attacks in the first place is to keep US happy.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps am guessing you can stretch things a bit and claim that the saudis is american allies... kinda. our current "allies" in the mideast dislike hamas almost same as they hate israel. 

Edited July 23, 2014 by Gromnir

[BruceVC]

 

That's easy imo. Cut off the ~3 Billion in annual "aid" and technology and they will fold like a beach chair.

and that is one o' the problems... and why we asked which western powers. US only has one real ally in the middle east: israel. not only that, most amaericans, even with mounting casualties in gaza, support the idf actions.  so, take US sanctions off the table for the nonce as they don't seem at all realistic. sure, if death toll gets too high, the US will threaten, by which time the idf will probable be moping up and preparing for the next major hamas conflict 2 years from now.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

I share Gromnirs sentiment  but also the situation is not as black and white as saying " Lets stop aid or enforce sanctions against Israel as this will improve the situation"

 

The reality is Hamas is considered an Islamic extremist group, linked to other groups like Hezbollah,  and almost all Western countries grapple with the problem of Islamic extremism. So no Western country wants to unintentionally empower any fundamentalist group by weakening Israel. And Hamas has been very provocative by firing the rockets

[Orogun01]

 

 

That's easy imo. Cut off the ~3 Billion in annual "aid" and technology and they will fold like a beach chair.

and that is one o' the problems... and why we asked which western powers. US only has one real ally in the middle east: israel. not only that, most amaericans, even with mounting casualties in gaza, support the idf actions.  so, take US sanctions off the table for the nonce as they don't seem at all realistic. sure, if death toll gets too high, the US will threaten, by which time the idf will probable be moping up and preparing for the next major hamas conflict 2 years from now.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

I share Gromnirs sentiment  but also the situation is not as black and white as saying " Lets stop aid or enforce sanctions against Israel as this will improve the situation"

 

The reality is Hamas is considered an Islamic extremist group, linked to other groups like Hezbollah,  and almost all Western countries grapple with the problem of Islamic extremism. So no Western country wants to unintentionally empower any fundamentalist group by weakening Israel. And Hamas has been very provocative by firing the rockets

 

So it justifies funding genocide? US has given support to terroris... freedom fighters before, they have no problem when it seems to suit their agenda; I guess they don't mind what their allies do as long as its not done to them.

Personally I just dislike how media is treating this, by pulling out whomever dares report anything negative about Israel and how the West has taken a meek, consenting attitude towards the whole thing. It bothers me that these people could wipe out a nation and manipulate perception into making themselves the good guys.

[TrashMan]

As far as I'm concerned, the Israel government and military is as much extremist and terrorist as Hamas is.

 

Hamas doesn't care about Palestinians? Sez who?

That's like saying Israel doesn't care about it's people because it didn't give back the land it took. In the mater of politics, everything is a numbers game.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

That's easy imo. Cut off the ~3 Billion in annual "aid" and technology and they will fold like a beach chair.

and that is one o' the problems... and why we asked which western powers. US only has one real ally in the middle east: israel. not only that, most amaericans, even with mounting casualties in gaza, support the idf actions.  so, take US sanctions off the table for the nonce as they don't seem at all realistic. sure, if death toll gets too high, the US will threaten, by which time the idf will probable be moping up and preparing for the next major hamas conflict 2 years from now.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

I share Gromnirs sentiment  but also the situation is not as black and white as saying " Lets stop aid or enforce sanctions against Israel as this will improve the situation"

 

The reality is Hamas is considered an Islamic extremist group, linked to other groups like Hezbollah,  and almost all Western countries grapple with the problem of Islamic extremism. So no Western country wants to unintentionally empower any fundamentalist group by weakening Israel. And Hamas has been very provocative by firing the rockets

 

So it justifies funding genocide? US has given support to terroris... freedom fighters before, they have no problem when it seems to suit their agenda; I guess they don't mind what their allies do as long as its not done to them.

Personally I just dislike how media is treating this, by pulling out whomever dares report anything negative about Israel and how the West has taken a meek, consenting attitude towards the whole thing. It bothers me that these people could wipe out a nation and manipulate perception into making themselves the good guys.

 

 

Do you really consider what the Israeli's are doing as genocide? Also how do you know the media is pulling out anything negative about Israel, do you have any links you can share about this or is this more your perception?

 

Because in South Africa most people, outside the Jewish community, are very critical of Israel