Israel vs Palestine

[Valsuelm]

More truths in 8 minutes here than you'll find in any 8 minute segment of any mainstream media claiming to be a news source, and Mel Gibson. Edited April 25, 2014 by Valsuelm

[Sarex]

Awesome channel.

[ShadySands]

Israel Steps Up Offensive With Deadly Gaza Bombings

JERUSALEM — Israel and its Palestinian adversaries in Gaza sharply escalated the latest resurgence of hostilities on Tuesday, with the Israeli military conducting a deadly aerial bombardment that targeted at least 160 Gazan sites, including homes, and militants in the enclave responding with missile volleys aimed at Israeli population centers, including Tel Aviv and Jerusalem.

 

The Israeli military said Gaza militants fired more than 160 rockets and that Israel’s missile defense system had thwarted at least 23 of them. More than 100 landed in Israel, the military said, but it was unclear whether they had caused any casualties or damage.

 

Hamas, the militant group that controls Gaza, took responsibility late Tuesday for having fired up to 40 long-range rockets, some of them intercepted over Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, where sirens sounded around 10 p.m. Hamas also claimed to have launched a rocket toward the northern Israeli city of Haifa, 88 miles away, which if confirmed would be the farthest range yet of the Gaza-based weapons.

Edited July 8, 2014 by ShadySands

[Rostere]

For a lot of people, the latest developments might make zero sense.

It all started with the kidnapping of three Israeli settler teenagers, a deed which the obscure or perhaps hitherto non-existent group "Islamic State in Jerusalem" (compare to ISIS) claimed responsibility for. Hamas said they did not do it, but also made a lot of typical stupid and non-constructive Hamas statements about how kidnapping was a form of defence against occupation and land theft. Then - and we must absolutely not forget the newly agreed upon Palestinian unity government now - Israel started arresting Hamas members en masse in the West Bank, also seizing political campaign materials and making raids into places they usually never go to.

 

At first, the kidnappings was used as a pretext to strike against Hamas. Then, due to the increased coverage the kidnapping had gotten due to the ridiculously oversized response (when the authorities knew the teenagers were likely dead - how typically Israel...) a lot of really ugly Israel ultra-nationalist extremists got geared up. A Palestinian kid was snatched and burned alive near Jerusalem. Avigdor Lieberman's right-wing nationalist Yisrael Beiteinu party has split from the prime minister's right-wing Likud. In this political climate, Gaza acts as a "punching bag" where the ruling party can get nationalist credentials by bombing Palestinians to oblivion and thus showing they aren't soft. It's just like the last time. Sadly, this is what things have come to.

[HoonDing]

i supprt irsael

[pseudonymous]

I support Mel Gibson, he wants to end world hunger.

 

[obyknven]

i supprt irsael

Why? Do you is not Goy?

 

P.S. This conflict looks quite artificial. Israel create Hamas as honey-pot for stupid Arabs and periodically make such "cleaning's" (yep this is just utilization of possible dangerous for occupants people, nothing more ).  

 

P.P.S. Supporting Israel you support terrorism.

http://www.sangam.org/ANALYSIS/Ahmad.htm

[JadedWolf]

I had a discussion with my brother yesterday. I put forth the proposition that the Palestinians would have gotten a lot more done for themselves if they had used peaceful tactics to draw attention to their plight. He retorted to that by saying that if they had done that the international community would just generally ignore them.

 

What do you guys think?

[TrashMan]

Sadly, I think he is right.

 

Sad stories catch the peoples attention for a few minutes - until another story comes along.

We are bombareded with all kinds of information for various media, with claims and counter-claim, and with our own problems. Thus we get distracted or bored rather quick.

[Mor]

I had a discussion with my brother yesterday. I put forth the proposition that the Palestinians would have gotten a lot more done for themselves if they had used peaceful tactics to draw attention to their plight. He retorted to that by saying that if they had done that the international community would just generally ignore them.

Of course if the "Palestinians"(the arab population in the mandate) weren't used as pawns by the Arab states from the start(and since), and instead of ganking on newly formed Israel, established a state of their own and lived in cooperation they would have a state for 60+ years. The Palestinians can't say the international community ignore them, when they are the only one with special "refugee" program, back then there were no "real" Palestinian movements, yet the situation got immidate attention and lets be honest since 90s they got overall more attention then any other conflict.

 

Anyway, through peaceful tactics the Palestinians got: recognition, representation in the UN(PLO 1988), got to the negotiating table(1991?), received partial sovereignty over their territories(1994) and for some time had been making good effort of state building. Although one might argue that since oslo it has become nothing but a "tactic", i have yet to see the Palestinians make one genuine significant good faith effort, its always one way street, with Israel making all the effort. Probably because the Palestinian populace(espcily one the hamas "side") are so brainwashed, that they can't really consider any kind of compromise. Which is why peace talks turned into nothing but posturing and position improvements through cycles of violence.

 

Hamas said they did not do it, but also made a lot of typical stupid and non-constructive Hamas statements about how kidnapping was a form of defence against occupation and land theft.

That an understatement. While publicly Hamas may not subscribe to their founding covenant any longer, which states the destruction of Israel and intolerance to anyone of different religion, they still largely practice what they preach, glorifying violence, murder and bigotry, including the mosques, media and classrooms. So maybe to you the frequent government officials praising god for the murder of some civilians, similar to the one in this case, is just some stupid statements, but its not so to most, especially those who realize that to make peace you more then just sign a peace of paper. (and leads to false equivocation between Palestinians and Israel).

 

More truths in 8 minutes here than you'll find in any 8 minute segment of any mainstream media claiming to be a news source, and Mel Gibson.

Yeah, right..... I am not surprised to see Sarex here, if you mean his type of truth then you are spot on. Because all i seen is slanted crap, that felt border line 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion' kind of crap.

 

The WHOLE story seem to comprise of portraying Israel as religious fanatics, with their zionist covenant who supposedly exclude Christians and Muslims, and approaching peace (which always devolve into violent rows) by committing war crimes, which they joke about. while the Hamas only wants peace, and get assassinated for it by Israel, who joke about that as well. Then presented a joke "excuse" by Israel and suggestion that its only paddled by the USA, while Israil cover under Antisemtism from criticism. Its beyond retarded, with 180 degrees on most things.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Mor

[Gorgon]

I had a discussion with my brother yesterday. I put forth the proposition that the Palestinians would have gotten a lot more done for themselves if they had used peaceful tactics to draw attention to their plight. He retorted to that by saying that if they had done that the international community would just generally ignore them.

 

What do you guys think?

Nobody knew who Arafa was before the PLO started the high profile attacks. Besides, I don't think they could have mustered a Ghandi like leader in that climate. They definately gave up the moral highground in the process though. That could have been a powerful tool. A displaced people condemned to live in a giant refugee/ concentration camp. Powerful symbolism there given Israel's own history. 

[Mor]

More like Powerful demagoguery, due to retard association to concentration camps.

 

Also, last I checked the Arabs were condemned by their own actions initiating the 48 war, which the UN deemed war of aggression. Their "refugee" status is unique definition unlike any other in our history, a self perpetuating political tool, that got really out of hand since then. Palestinians "refugee" received more money then any other (more then ww2 Europe iirc) and has less to show for it then any one else, excpet their ingenuity in the terrorism market.

 

As for refugee camps, since 48 they have been living for ~20years under Arab rule(Egyptian and Jordanian), treated like expansions.. though i doubt you'd call it "big refuge camp" (not jews, rights), although its far more suiting, the only actual refugee camps that fit your description are in the surrounding Arab countries, where Palestinians are denied basic human\civic rights, and live like S*** supported by our(UN) welfare money. While in Israel their quality of life has been far higher then in any of the surrounding countries*, and got representation and were on the path of state building (once they founded a united recognized leadership and denounced violence) again not so in Arab states..

 

*at least until Hamas contribution, I think that is still true for westbank, but I doubt it about Gaza.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Mor

[TrashMan]

Although one might argue that since oslo it has become nothing but a "tactic", i have yet to see the Palestinians make one genuine significant good faith effort, its always one way street, with Israel making all the effort. Probably because the Palestinian populace(espcily one the hamas "side") are so brainwashed, that they can't really consider any kind of compromise. Which is why peace talks turned into nothing but posturing and position improvements through cycles of violence.

 

 

I don't recall much effort from Israel. Any time they offer their hand, they have a knife in the other hand.

So really, both suck.

[Gorgon]

More like Powerful demagoguery, due to retard association to concentration camps.

 

Also, last I checked the Arabs were condemned by their own actions initiating the 48 war, which the UN deemed war of aggression. Their "refugee" status is unique definition unlike any other in our history, a self perpetuating political tool, that got really out of hand since then. Palestinians "refugee" received more money then any other (more then ww2 Europe iirc) and has less to show for it then any one else, excpet their ingenuity in the terrorism market.

 

As for refugee camps, since 48 they have been living for ~20years under Arab rule(Egyptian and Jordanian), treated like expansions.. though i doubt you'd call it "big refuge camp" (not jews, rights), although its far more suiting, the only actual refugee camps that fit your description are in the surrounding Arab countries, where Palestinians are denied basic human\civic rights, and live like S*** supported by our(UN) welfare money. While in Israel their quality of life has been far higher then in any of the surrounding countries*, and got representation and were on the path of state building (once they founded a united recognized leadership and denounced violence) again not so in Arab states..

 

*at least until Hamas contribution, I think that is still true for westbank, but I doubt it about Gaza.

I don't know if you are aware, but the term concentration camp doesn't actually mean 'compound for the industrial scale murder of jews'. It simply means concentrating a supposedly non friendly civilian population so you can control them. The Brittish did it in the Boer wars, in the US they were called 'internment camps' where they stuck US Citizens of Japanese descent. 

 

Now of course it isn't that, but there are similarites. Movement between Palestinean controlled areas is tightly controlled, the reality for many people is still crossing a checkpoint and being searched just to go to work, Ports are under the control of the Israli authority. In effect, Israel controls the economic development of the Palestinean areas... So they can control them.  I mean they are even building another Berlin wall. 

[Mor]

I don't know if you are aware, but the term concentration camp doesn't actually mean 'compound for the industrial scale murder of jews'. It simply means[...]

That a weasel response, its irrelevant what it also means, when you specifically said: "concentration camp. Powerful symbolism there given Israel's own history" i.e. using in the context of Holocaust, so yeah Powerful demagoguery indeed, because only a retard can suggest the false equivocation between the Palestinians situation in Israel and anything remotely the same.

 

I have nothing else to add on that topic, except that you should take another look at what I said about Palestinians in Arab countries, to keep things in perspective.

 

 

Although one might argue that since Oslo it has become nothing but a "tactic", i have yet to see the Palestinians make one genuine significant good faith effort, its always one way street, with Israel making all the effort. Probably because the Palestinian populace(especially one the Hamas "side") are so brainwashed, that they can't really consider any kind of compromise. Which is why peace talks turned into nothing but posturing and position improvements through cycles of violence.

 

I don't recall much effort from Israel. Any time they offer their hand, they have a knife in the other hand.

So really, both suck.

 

Trash, You can think what you want about Israel effort, but you can't ignore that most peace initiative\accord\etc starts with Israel making some kind of good faith gestures, to bring the petulant Palestinians leadership to the table. Just as most of those efforts, end with another wave of Palestinians violence... Edited July 9, 2014 by Mor

[Malcador]

Blue oby at it again.

[Mor]

it amazing the amount of topics that you only care to show how much you don't care about them, one might call pure trolling... p.s. there is no secret "guard dog" achievement for contentious topics...

Edited July 9, 2014 by Mor

[Rostere]

Here is a news update from Al Jazeera, which details the feelings from the Israeli side. You can get a look at how things look just outside Gaza. Meanwhile, there are 38 dead Gazans so far, with the Israeli government pledging escalation of their attacks on houses and apartment buildings where they suspect Hamas leaders live. Yep, that's American tax dollars at work. No Israelis have been killed thus far, although two have been lightly wounded (it's worth noting that "psychological trauma" sometimes is part of the definition of "wounded" when you get your news from the Israeli side). Palestinian leaders have asked for international humanitarian aid. I really wonder where they get their food from right now.

 

By a twist of irony, the American cousin of the Palestinian teenager who was burned alive by Israel Jewish nationalists, who was about to attend his funeral, was himself seized and beaten up by Israeli occupation police (WARNING - very graphic images). In an even stranger twist, he was after this brutal and inhumane treatment sentenced my a military court to 10 days of house arrest without charges. Although the shocking thing here really is that if he hadn't been American, nobody would have batted an eyelid. Routine beatings like this don't even make the news in Palestine.

 

Yeah, this is what happens when millions of people go to a place they've never been, try to ethnically cleanse those who currently live there, all motivated by thousand-year old religious books. The epitome of harmful religious crackpotism.

[Malcador]

When did I say I didn't care about them, exactly ?  Nothing funnier than wannabe moderator types, I guess.

[Gromnir]

 

 

By a twist of irony, the American cousin of the Palestinian teenager who was burned alive by Israel Jewish nationalists, who was about to attend his funeral, was himself seized and beaten up by Israeli occupation police (WARNING - very graphic images). In an even stranger twist, he was after this brutal and inhumane treatment sentenced my a military court to 10 days of house arrest without charges. Although the shocking thing here really is that if he hadn't been American, nobody would have batted an eyelid. Routine beatings like this don't even make the news in Palestine.

 

 

am gonna ignore the one-sided description o' current events for the nonce.  

 

one reason why we ain't getting much reaction here in the US regarding the florida kid (am not thinking irony means what you think it does) is 'cause the kid were part o' a group o' protesters that were hurling rocks at the police with slings. 3 Israelis got murdered in the middle east and there were zero coverage here until a palestinian kid is similarly murdered, possibly in retaliation. you know for certain that jewish nationalists responded? you know more than anybody at this point it seems. riots ensued. israeli government condemned the killing o' the palestinian boy, but nobody trusts anybody. regardless, this innocent florida boy (no doubt an honor student... initial reports concocted a story about him visiting his deathbed grandmother, but that were changed) with his head wrapped in a keffiyeh that complete covered his features and carrying a sling gets beat up by israeli police who were suffering more than psychological injuries from hurled rocks. btw, am not talking about bart simpson cartoon slingshots neither, am talking the the kinda slings that can hurl fist sized rocks in excess o' 60 mph at folks a goodly distance away.

 

did the israeli police act with excessive force? yea. nevertheless, is tough to wok up much sympathy for the sling-carrying kid (he assured his father that he didn't throw any rocks... honest) who disguised his features and joined a crowd that were attacking police. is not as if we is particularly pro-israeli, but we could care less 'bout a an american kid who purposefully travels to a veritable war zone and then joins an angry rock hurling mob and (gasp) finds himself hurt in the process. this ain't an example o' Israeli evil or even palestinian extremism. is freaking darwinism. kid is too stupid to live in our book... and am only being a smidgen hyperbolic.

 

 

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_jE2qRqEt7yU/TKhfIl3dClI/AAAAAAAAAEA/ElmM7uby6nw/s1600/peaceful+demostrator+oct+1.jpg

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

edit: we added a picture o' the traditional outfit o' the  peaceful protesters that were suffering israeli mistreatment. is not a picture o' the florida kid specific.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Gromnir

[Volourn]

"Yeah, this is what happens when millions of people go to a place they've never been, try to ethnically cleanse those who currently live there, all motivated by thousand-year old religious books. The epitome of harmful religious crackpotism."
 

Palestinains as a people didn't evene xist until modern times. Theyd efinitelya re not the original inhabitants of the land now known as 'Palestine'.  That land was stolen from the original inhabitants. perhaps, THEY should get it back.

 

\I agree with grom. Nobody gave a damn when it was 3 Isrealis teenagers were muedered but once the sick vengeance killing occured OUTRAGE.

 

Nobody gives a crap about Hamas' constant attacks on Isreal (not to mention their code of DESTROYING Isreal) until Isreal actually fights back. Yet, people believe that isreal should make peace with a group that wants to destroy them. Come on.

 

\Isreal is no angel. But, they certainly are the least of the two 'evils'.

[BruceVC]

When did I say I didn't care about them, exactly ?  Nothing funnier than wannabe moderator types, I guess.

 

Well comparing Mor to arguably the most vacuous and insincere person on these forums, Oby, and then not making any constructive contribution to the topic is probably not a good way to get people to think you really care about the topic. It reeks of trolling to me as well

 

You may not like or agree with Mor but he is consistent in his posts. He goes out his way to explain his point and he respects the etiquette of debating,  he is nothing like Oby

 

So what do you expect him to say when you make a comment like that?

 

It surprises me that you get surprised when people think you are dismissive, trolling  or overly negative

[Mor]

"Yeah, this is what happens when millions of people go to a place they've never been, try to ethnically cleanse those who currently live there, all motivated by thousand-year old religious books. The epitome of harmful religious crackpotism."

 

Palestinains as a people didn't evene xist until modern times. They definitely are not the original inhabitants of the land now known as 'Palestine'.  That land was stolen from the original inhabitants. perhaps, THEY should get it back.

Ethnically cleansed? Its ironic that most of their real refugee, came as a result of their own war of aggression, while at the same time the Arab has ~cleansed almost as much Jews citizens from their countries..

 

Anyway, here is a good article The tragedy of the Arabs, its a bit generic for our purpose but still fits well.

 

 

am gonna ignore the one-sided description o' current events for the nonce.

I am not. Its the same Demagoguery that drown reason under a blanket of emotional pictures and ignorance. In this case its the same wearying party line from previous escalations, which can be summed as: 'more people are dying in Gaza, then in Israel' so Israel's response is an 'aggressive overreaction'. Which translates to 'we support Hamas and the other terror groups terrorism', because lets be honest, Israel low death count isn't due to Palestinian lack of trying, and Israels effective anti-missile defense system, doesn't justify Hamas and other terror groups indiscriminate Rocket (and mortar) fire against Israeli civilian population every time they can't restrain themselves.

 

In this case Hamas wanted to make a show of force target Israels equivalent of NYC, sending more then million people into bomb shelters... using the same tactic from before, quick volley and then quick casefire request, to sell the upcoming repercussions as aggressive overreaction. When the bottom line is that if there was no rocket fire from gaza, there would be no Israeli response, and nobody would be dying...

 

 

@trash, concerning good faith gestures we spoke about, the Gaza enclave from which Hamas rule\fire, is the only non-disputed enclave, which was part of Israeli verery painful to them good faith gesture, which just like in Egypt after the first revolution hopes of democary given way to Islamist fundamentalist.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Mor

[Malcador]

You may not like or agree with Mor but he is consistent in his posts. He goes out his way to explain his point and he respects the etiquette of debating,  he is nothing like Oby

Ah, that was a good one, thanks for that. Actually, as a further aside, Oby isn't all that bad I've found, mainly he catches abuse rather than dispensing any - he knows how to get you lot and your panties in a twist.

 

As for the Israeli kids and no one caring, I think it's more of a case of the angle of a revenge killing when the Palestinian kid was killed. Which leads into it being a flare up of more violence between those two sets of people, and ta-da, world news. Rather than it being a case of no one caring about Jews buying it.

[Mor]

couple of newslets..

* Hamas tried to infiltrate Israel from the sea(youtube) probably wanted to abduct someone and play on the Israeli bleeding humanitarian heart.

* Iran has its hand in this conflict in the middle east as well. Who would have knows that the knew Iranian government is no diffrent then its predecessor, except in its optics *rolleyes*

 

As for the Israeli kids and no one caring, I think it's more of a case of the angle of a revenge killing when the Palestinian kid was killed. Which leads into it being a flare up of more violence between those two sets of people, and ta-da, world news. Rather than it being a case of no one caring about Jews buying it.

Right.. this case aside, have you noticed that overall Palestinians and generally Muslims tend to be featured in a lot of world news. Why do you think is that, anger issues? Edited July 9, 2014 by Mor