Ongoing discussion of Ukraine

[Tagaziel]

Also funny, Tagaziel, how was Crimea taken "by force" again? Without a shot? How is that force? On the other hand Kiev armor and weaponry draws a bloody path through the east. The US would wish they could take over country with that much "force". Instead all of their hostile takeovers turn into bloodbaths. Here, once more.

But sure, Russia is the evil party here since it doesn't spill blood. That's totally logical...

A military invasion, occupation, and annexation is the textbook definition of force, even if no shots are fired. The implied threat of violence is enough. I assume you'd have no problem with me moving into your house with a trio of attack dogs and forcing you out? After all, as long as the dogs don't bite anyone, it's not taking your home by force.

[HoonDing]

Blackwater.

They couldn't have picked a subtler name. Like Blackgold.

[sorophx]

Tagaziel, I'm not so sure annexation is what happened in Crimea. Crimea's legitimate (elected by its people) government proclaimed independence from the country that has no government to speak of. then they held a referendum, then they sent a delegation to Russia to ask for Crimea to be incorporated into the Russian Federation as a federal district. and only then did Putin hold a press conference and announce his decision to take Crimea in.

 

also, there are no reported violent clashes between Russian troops and Ukrainian troops or Crimean citizens. sure, there were individuals who tried to instigate riots on behalf of Russian government. but look at Crimea now, no reports are coming from there, the world is too preoccupied with Eastern Ukraine, while Crimea has willingly accepted its new federal government. 

 

of course, it could've been staged by Crimea's government, they could've planned the whole thing in advance, maybe even in conjunction with Putin's people. they could've foreseen the Euromaidan happening. but what are the chances of this being true? 

 

as I see it, people of Crimea made their choice, Russia accepted their proposal, because it greatly benefits both sides. the rest of the world should just chill the **** out, unless someone on the outside has solid proof Russia somehow staged it all

[Tagaziel]

1. Ukraine has a legitimate, internationally recognized interim government that is currently setting up the May 25 elections. Arguing it has no government is oby-grade propaganda.

 

2. Crimea was invaded and occupied by Russian troops, with a sham "referendum" set up in less than two weeks to cloak the annexation in a thin veil of "legitimacy".

 

3. Even if we accept the fraud as legitimate will of the people, Crimea violated the Ukrainian constitution by unilateral secession.

 

That's just the tip of the iceberg. If you feel invasion and annexation, pissing all over the law of a country, and forging referendum results is cool, then hey, whatever floats your boat.

[Malcador]

So, which revolutionaries are the good guys, again ?

[sorophx]

we will not see eye to eye. a government isn't made legitimate by being "internationally recognized", in that case any proxy government is a legitimate one.

 

a legitimate government is one that was elected by its people, and the one that represents the majority's interests. that's not what Ukraine's current government is doing. 

 

elections you say? would it be a stretch to expect it to be rigged under current conditions?

[Drowsy Emperor]

You can't really hold impartial elections in an atmosphere charged with nationalist fervor. The Kiev junta now seeks elections to legitimize its unconstitutional seizure of power, but any elections now are a sham. If they believed in their own political success they wouldn't have deposed of the legitimate president in the first place. 

[BruceVC]

So, which revolutionaries are the good guys, again ?

 

Malc that's a complicated question but the general rule is Western based revolutionaries are the "good guys "

 

 

We know this because Western countries offer there citizens the best quality of life and overall citizens of Western countries are the most happy. So if you put  that question in an ideological perspective than Western revolutionaries are the "good guys"

 

But I'm not sure why you think there is a choice of good and bad revolutionaries in the Ukraine example, there is only the pro-Russian separatists which have been  operating illegally since day 1 so they are the "bad guys "

[Malcador]

Malc that's a complicated question but the general rule is Western based revolutionaries are the "good guys "

Uhh.....

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I wonder whose alt Bruce is?

[Malcador]

Probably oby.

[BruceVC]

I wonder whose alt Bruce is?

 

Don't you ever get tired of asking a question that has no substance?

[obyknven]

Probably not.  He is too sane for this.

 

P.S. Two Minutes Butthurt.

http://youtu.be/-Iu0pvZP-dM

[Tagaziel]

we will not see eye to eye. a government isn't made legitimate by being "internationally recognized", in that case any proxy government is a legitimate one.

 

a legitimate government is one that was elected by its people, and the one that represents the majority's interests. that's not what Ukraine's current government is doing. 

 

elections you say? would it be a stretch to expect it to be rigged under current conditions?

You do realize you're rigging the game specifically to make the current Ukrainian government look illegitimate? Fact is, the current cabinet is the only government in Ukraine with any claim to legitimacy. It was, from the beginning, set up as an interim cabinet for creating elections that will elect a proper executive branch. It's also recognized internationally, with the sole exception of Russia.

 

And pray tell, how does it not represent the majority? Does the majority of Ukrainians want to see Ukraine torn apart by pro-Russian insurgents? That would be new. You're also ignoring the fact that the Euromaidan was one of the largest popular movements in the history of Ukraine. When does popular support start and where does it end?

 

You can continue to cling to the fiction that Ukraine has no government, but that's all it is: Fiction.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Probably oby.

Too obvious. The schtick is too similar.

[Malcador]

Wouldn't necessarily tout international recognition as much of anything, fair amount of players in this game and all.  And probably need to have elections before they can boast of being anything more than some post-revolutionaries, heh, will be funny to see how THAT turns out.

[Hassat Hunter]

1. Ukraine has a legitimate, internationally recognized interim government that is currently setting up the May 25 elections. Arguing it has no government is oby-grade propaganda.

 

2. Crimea was invaded and occupied by Russian troops, with a sham "referendum" set up in less than two weeks to cloak the annexation in a thin veil of "legitimacy".

 

3. Even if we accept the fraud as legitimate will of the people, Crimea violated the Ukrainian constitution by unilateral secession.

 

That's just the tip of the iceberg. If you feel invasion and annexation, pissing all over the law of a country, and forging referendum results is cool, then hey, whatever floats your boat.

 

1. Or, well, the thuth. The east doesn't recognise the government. And isn't the own countrymen more important than any other nation?

2. I totally missed an invasion. Or occupation. Curious, no? I do remember occupations of, say, Iraq, since everyone was shooting each other up. How can you occupy something you haven't invaded?

3. Good, good, bring the constitution to it. Fun detail, using the Ukranian army on Ukrainian soil is unconstitutional. If you look you can probably find many things Kiev did that were. So using "unconstitutional!!!" as defense, has no worth what so ever if your 'legitimate' government doesn't even hold to it.

No, I don't think it's cool. That's why I support the "seperatists" in their struggle against those who do those heinous acts you mention.

 

 

Malc that's a complicated question but the general rule is Western based revolutionaries are the "good guys "

Uhh.....

 

 

Yup...

Sad thing is, a lot of people really think like that.

Me? I would say the side that DOESN'T kill it's own citizens is the best, but as you can see from this thread, that's somehow hotly debated. You'd think killing citizens was uniformally seen as bad... but apparently, that ain't so.

Yes, I am surprised too...

 

 

we will not see eye to eye. a government isn't made legitimate by being "internationally recognized", in that case any proxy government is a legitimate one.

 

a legitimate government is one that was elected by its people, and the one that represents the majority's interests. that's not what Ukraine's current government is doing. 

 

elections you say? would it be a stretch to expect it to be rigged under current conditions?

You do realize you're rigging the game specifically to make the current Ukrainian government look illegitimate? Fact is, the current cabinet is the only government in Ukraine with any claim to legitimacy. It was, from the beginning, set up as an interim cabinet for creating elections that will elect a proper executive branch. It's also recognized internationally, with the sole exception of Russia.

 

And pray tell, how does it not represent the majority? Does the majority of Ukrainians want to see Ukraine torn apart by pro-Russian insurgents? That would be new. You're also ignoring the fact that the Euromaidan was one of the largest popular movements in the history of Ukraine. When does popular support start and where does it end?

 

You can continue to cling to the fiction that Ukraine has no government, but that's all it is: Fiction.

 

 

Because they are? If it was set up as Interim, why does it wage war. Why did it try to outbolish Russian as language? Why does it take loans? Why does it do all those things an interim government can't do since they should just control till a government is formed. These guys, they didn't. They didn't control, they made decisions. That's NOT something an interim government should do, and as such should be seen as illegal government.

 

Probably not. They probably also don't want Ukranians to die. To have Neo-Nazi marches and ideology in Kiev. To have civil war. All things this government does impose on people.

We're ignoring how big Euromaiden is? EU/VS and you are ignoring completely how many people votes in this referendum... far more than Euromaiden! If you want to make a point you need something else than sheer numbers, seeing how you conviently wave away sheer numbers of this referendum as well... but hey, hypocrisy doesn't surprise me...

 

Yes, it has a government, we don't deny that. However it's an illegal one, and unsupported by a large portion of the population. A government waging war on the people it's supposed to serve. I cannot call that legitimate... good for you that you can I suppose...

[Malcador]

Also oby, Red Alert 3's music is not appropriate. Although it is the only redeeming thing in that game (well ok, maybe that and Atkinson), Red Alert 2's is far better.

[Zoraptor]

Because they are? If it was set up as Interim, why does it wage war. Why did it try to outbolish Russian as language? Why does it take loans? Why does it do all those things an interim government can't do since they should just control till a government is formed. These guys, they didn't. They didn't control, they made decisions. That's NOT something an interim government should do, and as such should be seen as illegal government.

 

Yeah, claiming that the government is an interim one dedicated only or even primarily to setting up new elections is one of the more bizarre claims I've seen, especially when the pro coup people are usually quite open about the 'government' doing a load of stuff that is in no way at all related to making new elections and for which they cannot claim any electoral mandate. Loans would usually be OK as you cannot expect an interim government to go bankrupt just because it's interim. In this case even that was dodgy though, because they reneged the agreement with Russia (without paying pack the first loan tranche of the loan, of course- after all, they had nothing to fear from further antagonising the Russians...) and have signed up to an onerous deal with the IMF/ WB that binds any- legitimate- successor government to its long term conditions. That's not the behaviour of an interim government, that's the sort of thing you get from coup governments in Africa- or from the Iraqi Transitional Authority in Iraq, let's disband the Berkut as disbanding the Iraqi army worked sooo well- and it's designed to remake the country quickly and without recourse (except violence) into your image, then slap a 'democratic' stamp on it with elections, post facto but before any of the consequences start showing. Well, in theory, Putin had something to say about the last part.

 

What was required was conciliation, consultation and the other stuff you get when people deal in good faith, but then if we had that Yanukovich would still be caretaker president and any of the deals signed with him and broken by the Maidan types would have stuck. What was got was as about as far from that as it is possible to get. And I too am still somewhat baffled about how people can claim with a straight face that the current government has a mandate for what it is doing but those who supported the democratically elected government and oppose the interim one don't have any reason for unhappiness.

[Mor]

I wonder whose alt Bruce is?

I wonder why most of your post here are about changing the topic and or pondering about people alts.. Most of us here range between a remote cursory/interest in world events and nationalistic favor trolling, probably with unhealthy pinch of boredom and apparently a certain liking to sadomasochism, where you fit?

 

Also I don't about alt's, but you can find plenty drones in team "oby"

Edited May 12, 2014 by Mor

[Mor]

Wouldn't necessarily tout international recognition as much of anything, fair amount of players in this game and all.  And probably need to have elections before they can boast of being anything more than some post-revolutionaries, heh, will be funny to see how THAT turns out.

They aren't boasting of anything, they are the interim-government until next all Ukrainian election, in a move that was supported by the majority of the all Ukranian parliament(unchanged), and internationally supported as transition body until the upcoming elections. Edited May 13, 2014 by Mor

[Malcador]

 

I wonder whose alt Bruce is?

I wonder why most of your post here are about changing the topic and or pondering about people alts.. Most of us here range between a remote cursory/interest in world events and nationalistic favor trolling, probably with unhealthy pinch of boredom and apparently a certain liking to sadomasochism, where you fit?

 

Also I don't about alt's, but you can find plenty drones in team "oby"

 

I imagine because this discussion is a joke as outlined by your last line.

[Mor]

You can't really hold impartial elections in an atmosphere charged with nationalist fervor.

But you can have an impartial rushed referendum in Crimea, with "local" armed men (outfitted from Russia armed force barracks), are presiding over the process and "debate" (escorting those who are not with program out). While taking control over the region strategic locations and limiting lines of communications with the outside. While the public are fed with blunt propaganda, and "spontaneous" themed protest organized for good optics for the news and international observers are either intimidated by spontaneous crowds or outright turned away.

 

The Kiev junta now seeks elections to legitimize its unconstitutional seizure of power, but any elections now are a sham. If they believed in their own political success they wouldn't have deposed of the legitimate president in the first place.

* Kiev Junta is just one of the term circulating on Putin daily, trying to legitimize its own plans to take by force more prime Ukrninian real estate.

* "now seeks elections"- the elections has been sought from the the start, hence the interim part in the interim-government.

* Yanukovych wasn't deposed by "them", but by majority of all Ukrainian parliament including members of his own party.

 

 

I imagine because this discussion is a joke as outlined by your last line.

Some people are certainly trying to make it into one. Edited May 13, 2014 by Mor

[ShadySands]

It's all pretty pointless, posting here that is

 

Most people have already made up their minds and will stick to it despite (or maybe because of   ) any evidence to the contrary. That goes for both "sides"

 

Just save your energy and sanity points

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

I wonder whose alt Bruce is?

I wonder why most of your post here are about changing the topic and or pondering about people alts.. Most of us here range between a remote cursory/interest in world events and nationalistic favor trolling, probably with unhealthy pinch of boredom and apparently a certain liking to sadomasochism, where you fit?Also I don't about alt's, but you can find plenty drones in team "oby"

Because this thread is people getting into a West vs East ****-flinging contest and Bruce is someone's alt.