Ongoing discussion of Ukraine

[Malcador]

Doesn't doing crap like that make it easier for Russia to sell the idea of the ethnic Russians needing protection ?

[213374U]

I can see that consistency is important. 213374u. But I'm afraid I've lost track of your main point.

 

I'm sorry, you shouldn't read my posts under the assumption that all of them are crafted to fit in with my overarching anti-EU, pinko leftard, conspiracy theorist master plan. Only a vast majority.

 

It seems to be a long-standing point of contention between you and me, and it's somewhat tangential to this thread. It goes back to other discussion where you argued that some international justice is better than no international justice, and that an actually impartial international justice system is unrealistic because the enforcer will never be impartial. My position was that "some" international justice is in fact no justice at all if some parties are both apparently immune and running the show while others seem to be consistently targeted, regardless. As a result of the perceived unfairness and the fundamental injustice that this represents, it's not surprising that some feel disenfranchised and rise to challenge the legitimacy of the system as a whole, often violently. Universality and consistency are two of the pillars of justice. But justice matters little when you can get away with whatever, because force, applied or threatened, and not reason, is the ultimate problem solver in human affairs throughout history. "International law" is little more than a way to play the Great Game while paying lip service to Enlightened ideas.

 

But what goes around comes around.

Edited May 3, 2014 by 213374U

[pmp10]

Doesn't doing crap like that make it easier for Russia to sell the idea of the ethnic Russians needing protection ?

This wasn't organized and may not really matter much in the grand scheme of things.

Intervening on account of Odessa implies you will take your power to Odessa.

That could be too far even by Russian standards.

[Drowsy Emperor]

Doesn't doing crap like that make it easier for Russia to sell the idea of the ethnic Russians needing protection ?

Back when that was said one could argue that it was somewhat tenuous. Now, not so much.  If the bodies keep piling one could hardly blame the Russians if they full on invade.

 

As to the people who are arguing that the separatists are armed... well they are.. because the army in their regions gave them or let them take weapons. They don't need a single bullet from Russia when Ukrainian army stocks are there for the taking. And they're there for the taking because most of the Ukrainian army flat out refuses to fight for Kiev and just abandoned their posts or joined the regional forces.

All of those crying about Russian support need to face the facts that these people don't really need Russian support to do what they're doing now.

As for the "regular army" fighting for Kiev, Serbian press has just announced that intercepted radio transmission of Ukrainian forces included conversations in English and Croatian, so, in other words, Kiev is using mercenaries against Ukrainian citizens.

[Drowsy Emperor]

The best military analyst in Serbia claims that in the case Kiev's operations either defeat or come close to defeating the regional protesters, Russia will outright intervene and take everything up to the Dnieper river or go further to outright take Kiev.

Regardless we'll know soon enough, because to offer a pretense of control Kiev will have to resolve the issue before the elections, which means more assaults and more unnecessary deaths. Russian circles would prefer for the regions to resist and organize a referendum on their own.

Edited May 3, 2014 by Drowsy Emperor

[Gorgon]

Just hypothetically, do you think the country would be disintegrating without Russian support. Things were already bad the way Maidan ended.

[Tagaziel]

Russia would prefer a disintegrated Ukraine that's slaved to the RusFed economy. Every action Putin took towards Ukraine was meant to destabilize it.

[Drowsy Emperor]

@Gorgon: The country is disintegrating because the original balance of interests was tipped by the US/EU. Its all a tug of war now and there's no point in denying Russians are pulling on one side. 

 

@Tagaziel Yes Putin incited the masses on the Maidan to burn buildings and bring down the government, deposed the president and is now trying to depose the people who deposed the president. He's the counter revolutionary of his own revolution. Let the destabilization continue! He'll probably be a counter counter revolutionary next. 

[Volourn]

"Russia can offer them a market, energy and with the CIS security guarantees. Its not going to make  a wonderland out of Ukraine but the alternative is the worse poverty than they're in now, as the good energy deals come to an end and Ukrainian exports dry up."

 

The only thing Russia offers Ukraine is death and slavery. How many Ukrainians have been murdered since Russia took Ukraine over? More than there was previously. Even the so called 'Russian' Ukranians aren't safe from Russia's mass murderers.

[Drowsy Emperor]

Death and slavery...

 

 

Russia took Ukraine over? Do tell, I must have slept through that one.

[Drowsy Emperor]

Pictured here, average Russian as the Volourn sees it:

 

 

Slavery on the left, Death on the right, Ukrainian masses slightly out of frame.

Edited May 3, 2014 by Drowsy Emperor

[Volourn]

Axtually, the issue isn't with the 'average' Russian. The issue is with Putin and his cronies. The 'average' Russian opposed 9and cotninues to oppose) Putins invasion of Ukraine.

[Tagaziel]

@Tagaziel Yes Putin incited the masses on the Maidan to burn buildings and bring down the government, deposed the president and is now trying to depose the people who deposed the president. He's the counter revolutionary of his own revolution. Let the destabilization continue! He'll probably be a counter counter revolutionary next.

You're fairly accurate there, actually. Putin's propping up of Yanukovych played a major part in pissing off Ukrainians enough to form the Euromaidan and demand accountability from the government. Yanukovych deposed himself on his own, though, so that's where you're wrong. Once Putin noticed the problems, he started tearing Ukraine apart, bit by bit. First Crimea, now its eastern fringes.

 

I'll give you a C+ for effort.

[Drowsy Emperor]

Axtually, the issue isn't with the 'average' Russian. The issue is with Putin and his cronies. The 'average' Russian opposed 9and cotninues to oppose) Putins invasion of Ukraine.

 

You really haven't got the first idea about what happens in Russia do you?

[Volourn]

 I've read and heard enough from RUSSIANS online and elsewhere to have an idea on the full range of their views - which is avried like any other. Even the official Russin papers have published polls in which the majority of Russian opposed Putin's actions in Ukraine. Which says a lot since Put likes to murder Russians. Why such a Putin apologist?

[Meshugger]

What i have learned from these threads about the Ukraine, is that the truth died long ago.

 

If things escalate, the only neutral solution is U.N. troops. Any EU or Russian 'peace-keepers' will only add further butthurt.

[obyknven]

Even the official Russin papers have published polls in which the majority of Russian opposed Putin's actions in Ukraine.

Yep, oligarchs (owners of official Russin papers) don't like Putin. But it's bloody totalitarian Evil Empire, blaming of government is good old Russian tradition, nobody arrested for it (Snowden, Assange etc).

 

[Tagaziel]

What i have learned from these threads about the Ukraine, is that the truth died long ago.

 

If things escalate, the only neutral solution is U.N. troops. Any EU or Russian 'peace-keepers' will only add further butthurt.

And what is truth? Is truth unchanging law? We both have truths. Are mine the same as yours?

[Meshugger]

Typical Nietzscheian answer.

[Tagaziel]

I like Nietzsche.

 

Though in this instance, I was quoting Pontius Pilate from Sir Andrew Lloyd Weber's Jesus Christ Superstar.

[Meshugger]

D'oh! 

 

I should've known.

[Hassat Hunter]

You're fairly accurate there, actually. Putin's propping up of Yanukovych played a major part in pissing off Ukrainians enough to form the Euromaidan and demand accountability from the government. Yanukovych deposed himself on his own, though, so that's where you're wrong. Once Putin noticed the problems, he started tearing Ukraine apart, bit by bit. First Crimea, now its eastern fringes.

Russia gave better offer than EU, he went for it.

EU lackeys went AWOL, took power... set army to their own people, and with "support" of the EU life will be miserable since they cannot offer the same Russia can give Ukrain (like, cheap energy).

 

Euromaiden riotted to go for the EU-treaty... one that's heavily destructive for Ukrain. Bit of a self-destruction really.

Can't blame Putin or Russia on any of that, except "giving the better offer"... since when is that something evil? Hello, economics? Capitalism?

[Zoraptor]

And, as I've pointed out multiple times, Euromaidan was not spontaneous but had been planned- admitted, again by those inconvenient self proud Nationalists- from pretty much the point Yanukovich came to power. So it wasn't really anything Russia did, it started with the 'wrong' half of Ukraine electing the wrong President and has proceeded to the 'wrong' half of Ukraine resisting his ouster and the 'right' half government deciding to do exactly the same thing Yanukovich is accused of and inflict its vision on the rest of the country.

 

Intervening on account of Odessa implies you will take your power to Odessa.

That could be too far even by Russian standards.

 

 

If they intervene they'll go to Odessa because the marginal cost of going there as opposed to just plain invading any part of Ukraine will be, well, marginal, and they will want to get to Transnistria which is on the Moldovan border. On the other hand I cannot see them going to Kiev for much the same reasons they didn't go to Tblisi in 2008, and if they do they won't try and hold it. They'll certainly want the Dniepr canal that supplies water to Crimea now that Ukraine has been throttling supply, and that isn't really all that far from Odessa.

[Mor]

So the logic here is, it's OK to use heavy weapons against insurgents if they are backed by Russia. If not, the government has no legitimacy to quell riots, it must fold to the insurgents' every demand, and the President must be dismissed and tried for treason.

This an attempt to play on the one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. The difference is that on one side we had peaceful demonstrators who protested against government corruption etc, wishing to influence policy through popular protest. Which only escalated turning into riot after government heavy handed treatment including the use of thugs and eventually live fire. On the other side we have armed men who from the start decided to force a situation through use of force.

 

The main difference in approach result from media coverage, Russia want to see Ukraine as submissive satellite state like Belarus, with strong bias to everything EU or NATO e.g. the Orange revolution has been used in negative association for years. In this case Euromaiden movement was diminished to the few powerful pictures from the burning square in Kiev in the riot that took place after the violent dispersal, the Euromaiden movement and its goals were substituted with red sector radicals and some prosecution against ethnic Russians. Later the majority vote in Ukrainian house representing all parts of Ukraine (including East Ukraine and votes from president own party) and call for elections and peaceful resolution was played down, instead incitement commenced against "illegitimate" government( reads as: not in line with Russian interest), helped by Russian propaganda style with a complete 100% one sided picture of the situation, aggravated by accusation that has yet to manifest themselves outside of Putin Times, with convenient stories about red sector running in a loop. All of that helps to create the retarded perception that Euromaiden or the riot that took place in Kiev Independence square, is exact the same situation as it is now in East ukraine where there is a complete break of rule of law, with armed men taking control over several major cities, who set up check points, abduct, detain and abuse the rights of citizens, journalist and observers, who has military hardware and blown up helicopters on military bases -- which are played as "innocent civilians" who are being "massacred\murdered" by the military, brought by the Ukrainian "junta" who are "warmongering" and "blood thirsty" even though they have shown outmost restraint e.g. in Crimea they gave orders to go with disarmed weapons to avoid any chance of escalation..

 

 

you always go to great pains to say that western media is inherently better. It isn't, because freedom of the press means nothing at all practical for the end user if the freedom is not actually used. Willingly parroting government propaganda is actually worse [...]

Because Fundamentally in this conflict with Ukraine, it is. With everything I said i.e. Russia nationalization and control of its Mass media, Russia track record according to all available data in all related fields (censorship, freedom of information printed,broadcasted I even recall a note concerning electronic campaigns) and Russian media having a conflict of interest here. While everything you say is as before nothing but your opinion, in which I can swrich place between Russia and EU and throw it back at you, or Russia with Sudan or any state what so ever and claim the same thing.. my argument show facts, your argument tried to attach a plausible interpretation which suits your position.

 

And, as I've pointed out multiple times, Euromaidan was not spontaneous but had been planned- admitted, again by those inconvenient self proud Nationalists- from pretty much the point Yanukovich came to power.

What exactly are you suggesting that they have planned? I know that our opposition start to "plan" how to win the next election the second the previous ones end, but I don't suppose that what you intended to imply nor is this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Revolution , right?

 

So it wasn't really anything Russia did, it started with the 'wrong' half of Ukraine electing the wrong President and has proceeded to the 'wrong' half of Ukraine resisting his ouster and the 'right' half government deciding to do exactly the same thing Yanukovich is accused of and inflict its vision on the rest of the country.

huh, wrong president? it was a continuation of the orange revolution about corrupted and criminal system of state relations(like in Russia), an economy which was in state of ~stasis for years, and finally broke out when the president decided to suspend the closer European integration, which was seen as a solution to that.

 

You kind remind me those guys who claimed during Egypt initial revolution that it was pro-democracy, as oppose to not having running water in many neighborhoods.

[Zoraptor]

Don't know why I bother really, but here is the link on the planning of the 'spontaneous' anti Yanukovich protests, again*. Tyanybok is quite open about trying to foment a "pre revolutionary atmosphere" since Yanukovich's (free and fair, since I'm recycling links) election in 2010. Oh, and he quite freely and without prompting quotes Bandera in that interview as well.

 

*Most likely so you can not read it, again, and insist that it wasn't planned sometime down the line, again.