"United States' claims at being a democracy seriously threatened"

[JadedWolf]

So would you agree that at least part of the problem in the OP is that the 'control group' - normal people don't get what they want because they:

 

1. Don't know what's going on

2. Don't know how they'd change things if they did know what was going on

3. Don't know how to say what they want to change

4. Don't know to reward anyone who gives them what they want, because they don't know when it happens (see point 1)

 

I would say most people don't have the time, the access to information or in some cases even the inclination to make well considered decisions on every issue that pops up. I don't think anyone expects them too, either. That's not to say they can't make well considered decisions on any important issue - but for a lot of issues government is simply going to have to make the decisions and then it will be on them to explain to people why it is good for them.

 

I have to say the situation is made worse by today's press. People depend on the press too much to tell them how things are, while the press isn't interested so much in finding the truth these days as in the almighty dollar. All they want to do is to tell people what they want to hear, so that people will keep buying their newspaper or clicking their website. No one really wants to be told a problem is so complex that they have to read an entire library to properly understand it. They want things to be explained in a single paragraph, with lots of pictures. And that's even ignoring that some people behind these newspapers, t.v. channels and websites have their own private agenda.

 

The real problem I have though with the findings of the report is that the interests of the wealthiest and the corporations are often completely at odds with the interests of the average Joe. Even if you have to conclude that average voters can't be asked to make every single political decision, they still should not be dictated by powerful groups that don't have the interests of society at heart, but only their own pockets.

[Meshugger]

I am the only one who finds this worrysome for the next generation? When people do not feel like they are in control of their destinies, they become cynics, followed by their children becoming antagonistic and even revolutionary.

 

Not exactly a positive development. 

[Walsingham]

I take your point about people being badly informed. But I don't just blame 'click' media. It's also the problem that having abandoned philosophical or political 'bias' the only way to report anything now is by emphasising the 'weepy puppy' angle.

 

I simply don't think it's logically possible to have news media that is abbreviated and balanced and of quality. Balance takes time. Abbreviation requires focus. So we end up sacrificing quality. Or - thinking about it - we end up reporting news we already basically understand. Limiting the news to social interactions and novelty.

 

I'm glad we've moved to discussing the role of media. Because my point wasn't that democracy is doomed. My point is that rather than wasting time attempting and failing to stop vested interests making policy, we should be improving the way ordinary people make policy.

[JadedWolf]

I am the only one who finds this worrysome for the next generation? When people do not feel like they are in control of their destinies, they become cynics, followed by their children becoming antagonistic and even revolutionary.

 

Not exactly a positive development. 

 

No, you are not the only one. The fact that we are going in such a direction that people can be monitored 24 hours a day -hell, soon everyone will be willingly wearing glasses that track every move they make- doesn't make things much better. When people can be so easily controlled, and the risk of any sort of uprising diminishes, it's much easier to completely discard the interests of those not in positions of power.

[Orogun01]

Thanks for posting the story. I saw it and forgot to post it up.

 

My solution would be to admit the strength of vested interest and put them into a 'House of Lords'. Badge them up. Let the representative from Exxon get up on his wee hind legs and speak directly.

 

On a less panicky note I wonder how many of you have actually gone out and met the great public on the ol' campaign trail, besides GD?

 

One explanation for the data is that normal people - the other group - are half-educated on most issues, and terrifyingly inarticulate.

In a functioning republic you have representatives that are able to voice your concerns and inform you of anything that might concern you. Here they have been bought out and like to play party politics.

[ravenshrike]

Call Roosevelt a Nazi again and I will gesticulate wildly at your ignorance. 

Where did I call FDR a National Socialist? Jackbooted thug, sure *cough*Japanese internment camps*cough*(Amusing fact, in Larry Corriea's Warbound, FDR[Who isn't a cripple because Active healers cured his polio] starts putting Actives in 'internment' camps. Multiple reviews of the book on Amazon complained that he was ripping off of X-Men.), but certainly not National Socialist. Among other things, the National Socialists were a ****load more coherent in how they enacted their social policies. 

[Hurlshort]

FDR isn't in my presidential wheelhouse, but he is ranked extremely highly in every major academic list, so I'm going to go ahead and disregard everything you are saying.  

 

Regarding Japanese Internment camps, which of course was a terrible time in our history, I actually just went to a wedding in a small town that was built by Japanese Americans after they were released.  Not all of them returned to cities like San Jose and San Francisco, some stayed and became very successful farmers in the Central Valley.  It's amazing to see Japanese Americans take a terrible situation and turn it into a positive legacy, and a real testament of their character. 

[ravenshrike]

FDR isn't in my presidential wheelhouse, but he is ranked extremely highly in every major academic list, so I'm going to go ahead and disregard everything you are saying.  

 

Che Guevara is also ranked high on every academic list and so too before the fall of the Soviet Union and the exact numbers slaughtered started coming out was Joseph Stalin. Without the war FDRs economic policies would have failed even worse than they did and his threatening to pack the courts if they did not pass his social policies was at best criminal. Yet your academics gloss over this just as they ignore the corruption in the current presidency.

[Gromnir]

from a vantage point in 2014, it is easy for Gromnir to look at  Korematsu v. United States and observe with sadness that both the executive and judiciary ignored the Constitution. Scalia has opined that Korematsu were wrong, "but you are kidding yourself if you think the same thing will not happen again." not only does wartime panic make otherwise reasonable peoples paranoid, war itself makes seemingly ridiculous scenarios plausible. the LA Times, a rather liberal newspaper as any Californian can attest, had editorials demanding that something be done about the Japanese situation and were helping to build a mob mentality regarding residents, and LA Times weren't the only such media outlet doing so. furthermore, the incident on Niihau had been reported in newspapers such as the NY Times and the Chicago Tribune.  

 

never heard of Niihau? a downed Japanese pilot named Nishikaichi, following the Pearl Harbor attack were "captured" on the smallest of the inhabited Hawaiian islands. the locales weren't initially aware o' the events o' December 6, so although the pilot were forcibly relieved of his weapon, he were treated to a luau for chrissakes. eventually folks get suspicious, at which point the pilot is viewed as a prisoner and is guarded. the locales had a translator, an American by birth but having Japanese parents and family-- fellow named Harada. the treacherous Harada helped the pilot escape custody, destroy the downed pilot's zero, and attack his American neighbors with machine guns removed from the pilot's downed and now burned plane. Harada were aided in his efforts to assist the pilot by his wife (also Japanese but American-born) and an older Japanese fellow who ran off shortly after Nishikaichi were initially freed. after a couple o' days o' seeming pointless terrorizing o' the Niihau villagers by the pilot and Harada, a locale Hawaiian farmer, in spite being shot multiple times, manages to kill the Japanese pilot by hurling the pilot headfirst into a stone wall. Harada then commits suicide. 

 

​internment of Japanese (some Italians, Germans and others too btw) were not only illegal, but it were wrong. nevertheless, am thinking that Scalia is correct that we is kidding self if we believe it won't happen again. paranoia fueled by the insane reality o' war is making such wrongs almost inevitable.

 

in Nishikaichi's hometown in Japan there is supposed a granite column erected in his honor... memorializing his brave deeds.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Rostere]

The problem as I see it is the winner-takes-it-all twists in the elections, more specifically the elections for Congress and for President. The function of the Senate when comparing to current and historical second legislative chambers is to represent the constituent states on equal footing, to prevent secession due to perceived "tyranny of the majority". A lot of democracies in Europe do not have a second chamber, probably mostly due to the fact that many countries here are less diverse than the US, so there is no risk for secession or civil war. If you do want a second chamber, then I think the US Senate is probably (as I see things) doing the job right.

 

Electing a President could be viewed as being somewhat problematic. If we assume that political opinions can be placed on a right-left scale (not at all a perfect model, but rather close to the truth for our purposes here), then by game theory there will only ever be two logical alternatives for the voter - which is indeed true for any winner-takes-all vote in general with that assumption. A presidential election vastly increases the power of the national majority which chooses the president - they get an entire presidential administration, while the 49% or so who didn't vote for that alternative get nothing. If you think that is good, then I guess the system is fine. This system is probably working as intended, but in my opinion this design is likely suboptimal. Remember this system was created ages ago, when other people would laugh at the US and ask themselves who would rule the country if there was no king.

 

The really stupid part in my opinion is how elections to the US House of Representatives work. We've already made clear the Senate represents the constituent states on equal footing, and the President represents a national majority. Naturally, we would expect the House of Representatives to represent the will of all the people, which is the role of the first chamber or "lower house" in most democratic countries. Indeed, I would argue that representing the will of the people with basis in the principle that two votes have double the power of one vote, that power is proportional to the number of votes, is the single by far most important aspect of democracy. Surprisingly, the US House of Representatives is arranged based on principles a bit similar to the US Senate. Representatives are chosen with basis in who won in arbitrarily drawn "districts", but with number of representatives divided between states based on population. Naturally, this is going to create a lot of wasted votes.

 

In the end we get a system in which game theory predicts completely whacked-out results. If party X would receive, say, 7% nationwide but not more than 50% (the needed percentage in this example) in any single district, they would get zero representation. Your vote counts differently depending on where you live - it would be completely rational behaviour to move to a place where people think like you politically, if you get fed up of throwing away your vote in every election. It encourages politicians to redraw districts in their own favour. Logically (in an extreme case), as long as you have as many voters as you have candidates, you can redraw districts in a state to win you all possible places in the HoR except one. If we make the restriction that districts have to include an equal number of people, assume 100 people of which 50% vote for party A and 50% for party B, you can in an extreme case redraw districts so that party A wins 8 districts and party B only 2. This is, to put it mildly, the most stupid electoral system I've seen in any democratic country. It's no wonder people get cynical when this is their reality. If you asked me, I couldn't design a better system to make the maximum number of votes meaningless. Naturally, winner-takes-all systems is also heaven for lobbyists and special pressure groups, but I don't need to tell you that.

 

On the other hand, if the US simply woke up one day, realized it's the 21st century and made all election results completely proportional to voters, not proportional to arbitrarily drawn districts, then I think they could have a nice democracy. So on the good side, the problem is not that difficult to fix in theory.

[Gromnir]

...

 

silly europeans and their parliamentary inspired preconceptions. had a professor at Cal, a brusque German woman, who repeated over and over that europeans saw US government as alien and seemed doomed to framing any issue o' government organization in a context more familiar to them. the thing is, Gromnir attended University in late 80s ... were a time when the internet were used by the govt./military and by some small segments of academia to send glorified email messages.  our exposure to european provincialism did not occur til we went to spain and england.  people in the US may be ignorant o' european politics... is disturbing how little the average guy from oklahoma cares 'bout greece or the ukraine.  the thing is, unlike eropeans, the guy in oklahoma don't pretend to be knowledgeable 'bout european government. 

 

take the most liberal democrat representative you can imagine. now, have her represent some congressional district that has an air force base or a boeing factory. nobody in the US is shocked by how she votes on defense spending bills, but europeans is. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Walsingham]

FDR isn't in my presidential wheelhouse, but he is ranked extremely highly in every major academic list, so I'm going to go ahead and disregard everything you are saying.  

 

Regarding Japanese Internment camps, which of course was a terrible time in our history, I actually just went to a wedding in a small town that was built by Japanese Americans after they were released.  Not all of them returned to cities like San Jose and San Francisco, some stayed and became very successful farmers in the Central Valley.  It's amazing to see Japanese Americans take a terrible situation and turn it into a positive legacy, and a real testament of their character. 

 

Their american character?

[JadedWolf]

...

 

silly europeans and their parliamentary inspired preconceptions. had a professor at Cal, a brusque German woman, who repeated over and over that europeans saw US government as alien and seemed doomed to framing any issue o' government organization in a context more familiar to them. the thing is, Gromnir attended University in late 80s ... were a time when the internet were used by the govt./military and by some small segments of academia to send glorified email messages.  our exposure to european provincialism did not occur til we went to spain and england.  people in the US may be ignorant o' european politics... is disturbing how little the average guy from oklahoma cares 'bout greece or the ukraine.  the thing is, unlike eropeans, the guy in oklahoma don't pretend to be knowledgeable 'bout european government. 

 

take the most liberal democrat representative you can imagine. now, have her represent some congressional district that has an air force base or a boeing factory. nobody in the US is shocked by how she votes on defense spending bills, but europeans is. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Gromnir sure seems to have some negative feelings toward Europeans.

[Gromnir]

btw, am not certain how "locals" got benefit our spell-check auto-correction above...   "locales"? really? needs be more careful.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps Gromnir is not much different than the hypothetical guy from oklahoma we described earlier. sure, we stays current with world affairs n' such, but if somebody told us that Lithuania had a democratically elected king-for-life and that the current king were a dancing pig from Vilnius, we would need to check first to make certain that the claim were incorrect. 

Edited April 21, 2014 by Gromnir

[Zoraptor]

so too before the fall of the Soviet Union and the exact numbers slaughtered started coming out was Joseph Stalin.

 

 

Not really- the estimates of those Stalin killed were massively over what the documents say and have been revised down hugely following release of documents. See this, from the author of Bloodlands (a pretty rubbish book, but he cannot be accused of being pro Russian). That leaves the rather odd situation of having a (supposedly) monolithic academic establishment putting Stalin high on its love in lists while simultaneously having him be 10x+ the mass murderer he actually was. It's almost like they aren't quite as monolithic as they're made out to be.

 

Besides, FDR does very well on non academic based public opinion lists as well.

[Gromnir]

 

...

 

silly europeans and their parliamentary inspired preconceptions. had a professor at Cal, a brusque German woman, who repeated over and over that europeans saw US government as alien and seemed doomed to framing any issue o' government organization in a context more familiar to them. the thing is, Gromnir attended University in late 80s ... were a time when the internet were used by the govt./military and by some small segments of academia to send glorified email messages.  our exposure to european provincialism did not occur til we went to spain and england.  people in the US may be ignorant o' european politics... is disturbing how little the average guy from oklahoma cares 'bout greece or the ukraine.  the thing is, unlike eropeans, the guy in oklahoma don't pretend to be knowledgeable 'bout european government. 

 

take the most liberal democrat representative you can imagine. now, have her represent some congressional district that has an air force base or a boeing factory. nobody in the US is shocked by how she votes on defense spending bills, but europeans is. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Gromnir sure seems to have some negative feelings toward Europeans.

 

quite the contrary. we loved our time teaching in europe. we were however, surprised by certain... trends. europeans we knew were typically academics and University students, so perhaps that explains their inexplicable "expertise" regarding the US and Americans.  were kinda funny listening to our euro friends talk 'bout how Americans is this or that. we would point out that we Gromnir were American and they would almost seem startled. "well, we don't mean you." *shrug* those conversations never went anywhere useful.

 

europeans spend considerably more o' their time worrying about Americans than the other way around.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Mor]

is disturbing how little the average guy from oklahoma cares 'bout greece or the ukraine.  the thing is, unlike eropeans, the guy in oklahoma don't pretend to be knowledgeable 'bout european government. 

 

take the most liberal democrat representative you can imagine. now, have her represent some congressional district that has an air force base or a boeing factory. nobody in the US is shocked by how she votes on defense spending bills, but europeans is.

Couple of things: Are you implying that the average guy from Europe is more knowledgeable about the world around him then the ones in US? or that EU members aren't effected by decisions that effect their economy? otherwise if your point was about US foreign policy, being tied to its major military exports please spell it out for me.

 

is many reasons. first, do you know how wiki entries is created? takes very little effort to create an intentionally fraudulent wiki entry. is even less surprising when an accidental incorrect wiki entry appears. to trust any wiki entry is naive bordering on moronic. second, is the most half-arsed and lazy scholarship possible. you don't read any primary or even secondary sources. some unknown author presents you with... snippets (?) either pulled out o' the air or their arse, or with no thought to context. is a breeding ground for plagiarism. is sloppy, unsophisticated. is cliff's notes o' cliff's notes. and while it has been a Long time since Gromnir were teaching, such nonsense is getting an automatic fail if we discovered one is using wiki as a source.

It takes even less effort to dismiss an argument you don't like. Wikipedia is an exceptable for establishing a baseline when discussing definition of well known terms, especially when someone asserts what people are taught, what is the truth and what people can get away with. Maybe instead of generic explanation that has nothing todo with provided entry you'll try to argue for your definition based on its merits or better maybe just phrase it better.

 

Also any reason why you keep refering to yourself in a 3d person?

Edited April 21, 2014 by Mor

[JadedWolf]

Also any reason why you keep refering to yourself in a 3d person?

 

 

His Obsidian forum persona is based on the half-Orc Gromnir, a character from Baldur's Gate 2 who would refer to himself in third person.

[JadedWolf]

 

quite the contrary. we loved our time teaching in europe. we were however, surprised by certain... trends. europeans we knew were typically academics and University students, so perhaps that explains their inexplicable "expertise" regarding the US and Americans.  were kinda funny listening to our euro friends talk 'bout how Americans is this or that. we would point out that we Gromnir were American and they would almost seem startled. "well, we don't mean you." *shrug* those conversations never went anywhere useful.

 

 

 

Hmm, I must be unlucky then, since I've met a lot of United Statians who were very opinionated about "Europe" (as if it were a country, rather than a continent filled with many different countries, each with very distinct national identities) and its "socialism", its liberalism, and its general wickedness. And it's not even just the common man on the street.

 

For example, apparently in my own country the elderly are wearing bracelets saying they don't want to die, out of fear of the deathsquads that are going about killing off the elderly.

 

Oh, and 10 percent of our deaths are due to euthanasia.

 

This is according to former presidential candidate Rick Santorum.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/euthanasia-in-the-netherlands-rick-santorums-bogus-statistics/2012/02/21/gIQAJaRbSR_blog.html

Edited April 21, 2014 by JadedWolf

[Meshugger]

Trying to be on topic, i encourage everyone to read this: http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/04/h-g-wells-it-seems-me-i-am-more-left-you-mr-stalin

 

HG Wells, yes the famous writer, had an interview with Stalin in 1934. Notice the language on how things are and how they debate it. Also notice how elequently they articulate themselves. But the point is, notice how differently they viewed the world around them in 1934. Quite fascinating compared to today.

 

//EDIT: During my travels in the US, i have to say that the americans are probably the most nice and civilized people that i have ever met. They also live in a nice bouble that is actually good for a european if one wants to get away from the outside world. Every state, even towns have their own culture and everyone is highly engaged in that. The last time i was there, i literally had no idea on what was going on outside the state borders, except for American Football. Boy, did you guys have an opinion about that. Everything from newest picks to fantasy teams to all kinds of statistics.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Meshugger

[Gromnir]

 if your point was about US foreign policy, being tied to its major military exports please spell it out for me.

It takes even less effort to dismiss an argument you don't like. 

Also any reason why you keep refering to yourself in a 3d person?

 

1) huh? your first comment makes no sense.  serious. am not being sarcastic.

 

2) elrond posted a definition. he were not making an argument. maybe you shoulda' bothered yourself to read his posts... or not. regardless, for reasons noted above, we will always dismiss wiki cites... not arguments.

 

3) 3d people are the norm. we tried to post as a 2d person but we couldn't work a keyboard. as a 4d person, our awareness o' time was too alien to make posts that were coherent.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited April 21, 2014 by Gromnir

[Gromnir]

 

 

quite the contrary. we loved our time teaching in europe. we were however, surprised by certain... trends. europeans we knew were typically academics and University students, so perhaps that explains their inexplicable "expertise" regarding the US and Americans.  were kinda funny listening to our euro friends talk 'bout how Americans is this or that. we would point out that we Gromnir were American and they would almost seem startled. "well, we don't mean you." *shrug* those conversations never went anywhere useful.

 

 

 

Hmm, I must be unlucky then, since I've met a lot of United Statians who were very opinionated about "Europe" (as if it were a country, rather than a continent filled with many different countries, each with very distinct national identities) and its "socialism", its liberalism, and its general wickedness. And it's not even just the common man on the street.

 

For example, apparently in my own country the elderly are wearing bracelets saying they don't want to die, out of fear of the deathsquads that are going about killing off the elderly.

 

Oh, and 10 percent of our deaths are due to euthanasia.

 

This is according to former presidential candidate Rick Santorum.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/euthanasia-in-the-netherlands-rick-santorums-bogus-statistics/2012/02/21/gIQAJaRbSR_blog.html

 

this is just one reason why the internet is so dangerous to some folks.  your opinion on Americans is based on what you has gleaned form your internet travels?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[pmp10]

I am the only one who finds this worrysome for the next generation? When people do not feel like they are in control of their destinies, they become cynics, followed by their children becoming antagonistic and even revolutionary.

 

Not exactly a positive development.

But people are in control of their destinies more than ever before.

The same wonders of globalization that cut the ties between citizens and their government allow us today to find different places to live in.

If people are not willing to make a simple change of residency then they are not going to become reformers or revolutionaries.

[JadedWolf]

 

 

 

quite the contrary. we loved our time teaching in europe. we were however, surprised by certain... trends. europeans we knew were typically academics and University students, so perhaps that explains their inexplicable "expertise" regarding the US and Americans.  were kinda funny listening to our euro friends talk 'bout how Americans is this or that. we would point out that we Gromnir were American and they would almost seem startled. "well, we don't mean you." *shrug* those conversations never went anywhere useful.

 

 

 

Hmm, I must be unlucky then, since I've met a lot of United Statians who were very opinionated about "Europe" (as if it were a country, rather than a continent filled with many different countries, each with very distinct national identities) and its "socialism", its liberalism, and its general wickedness. And it's not even just the common man on the street.

 

For example, apparently in my own country the elderly are wearing bracelets saying they don't want to die, out of fear of the deathsquads that are going about killing off the elderly.

 

Oh, and 10 percent of our deaths are due to euthanasia.

 

This is according to former presidential candidate Rick Santorum.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/euthanasia-in-the-netherlands-rick-santorums-bogus-statistics/2012/02/21/gIQAJaRbSR_blog.html

 

this is just one reason why the internet is so dangerous to some folks.  your opinion on Americans is based on what you has gleaned form your internet travels?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

 

Rick Santorum only exists on the internet?

 

And no, I don't base my opinion on Americans on what I "glean from my internet travels", because I don't have an opinion on all Americans. The U.S. is a pretty large place with a lot of different people, I don't pretend they are all the same, and that I can know all about all of them.

 

I just wanted to correct the picture you painted of European know-it-alls in one corner, and modest Americans who wouldn't dare to say something about Europe in the other.

 

[Gromnir]

 

 

 

 

quite the contrary. we loved our time teaching in europe. we were however, surprised by certain... trends. europeans we knew were typically academics and University students, so perhaps that explains their inexplicable "expertise" regarding the US and Americans.  were kinda funny listening to our euro friends talk 'bout how Americans is this or that. we would point out that we Gromnir were American and they would almost seem startled. "well, we don't mean you." *shrug* those conversations never went anywhere useful.

 

 

 

Hmm, I must be unlucky then, since I've met a lot of United Statians who were very opinionated about "Europe" (as if it were a country, rather than a continent filled with many different countries, each with very distinct national identities) and its "socialism", its liberalism, and its general wickedness. And it's not even just the common man on the street.

 

For example, apparently in my own country the elderly are wearing bracelets saying they don't want to die, out of fear of the deathsquads that are going about killing off the elderly.

 

Oh, and 10 percent of our deaths are due to euthanasia.

 

This is according to former presidential candidate Rick Santorum.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/euthanasia-in-the-netherlands-rick-santorums-bogus-statistics/2012/02/21/gIQAJaRbSR_blog.html

 

this is just one reason why the internet is so dangerous to some folks.  your opinion on Americans is based on what you has gleaned form your internet travels?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

 

Rick Santorum only exists on the internet?

 

And no, I don't base my opinion on Americans on what I "glean from my internet travels", because I don't have an opinion on all Americans. The U.S. is a pretty large place with a lot of different people, I don't pretend they are all the same, and that I can know all about all of them.

 

I just wanted to correct the picture you painted of European know-it-alls in one corner, and modest Americans who wouldn't dare to say something about Europe in the other.

 

 

*sigh* santorum is one guy. (probably learned of him via the internet) why on earth would you suggest that the views o' one guy is representative o' any significant proportion o' Americans? post something vol said and suggest it represents all kanadians? junai can make a post and no doubt you think it is a meaningful representation o' the people o' norway?  this is getting repetitive.  you say that you ain't doing something.... but that is what you did immediate before saying you don't.  is mind boggling. really. am not sure if you is intentionally obtuse, or accidental.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps am not even gonna try and glean what you meant by, "Rick Santorum only exists on the internet?" did you think when we referenced internet travels we thought you were discovering a mythical max headroom and those ghosts in the machine form the recent tron movie? is like trying to converse with a dolphin. am thinking you is having enough intelligence to communicate, but is all coming out pops and squeaks... nonsense.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Gromnir