General Forum Input around life

[Hiro Protagonist]

I would be leaving any advice for your friend to the professionals. She's been to the hospital, probably getting advice on her weight by her doctors. She most likely doesn't want to hear 'more advice' from work colleagues. I know I wouldn't want to hear advice or opinions from work colleagues about medical issues that I might have.

 

Weight has become one of those taboo subjects in recent years where even the slightest mention of someone's weight can get you offside. Mention the problems of smoking to a smoker? Maybe. Do the same for someone who's overweight? I wouldn't go there. Overall, not for me to tell work colleagues how to live their lives.

Edited April 3, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist

[Hurlshort]

Offering your company on walks or more healthy lunches is probably as far as you want to push it.  Just letting her know she has your support is all that is necessary.

[Walsingham]

 

Case in point which I may have mentioned about a lady I met collapsed in the road. If I haven't already discussed it I'll run through it for you.

I don't recall that story and would be interested to hear it.

 

 

Couple of years ago, was on my way somewhere (but not in a rush) and noticed a middle aged lady halt and just sit down on the spot. Like the puppeteer had got bored and wandered off. Like it was her arms that collapsed before her legs did, if you follow me.

 

Straightening up I walked over and observed that it was probably an impertinent question, but was she OK?

 

She waved vaguely and complained that she had been thrown out of somewhere wanting a drink, and did I know anywhere likely to be open.

 

I dodged the question by pointing out that it was a very fine day (it was a clear sky and about three in the afternoon) and how on balance it would probably more enjoyable if she went for a walk. I offered to walk with her.

 

Basically anything to break the impasse and get her to stand up. Without implying that it was wrong or foolish to be sat on the pavement. Although she was clearly drunk I suspect she was seriously manic depressive. I felt confident I could intervene and make a difference, but it suddenly occurred to me: was I really going to befriend her? Offering anything meaningful then taking away could be just as bad as doing nothing. It might even be worse.

 

I reasoned that the best I could hope for was to be a brief moment of niceness then gracefully bow out. It might even be more useful than sticking around. Depressive people can rapidly turn aggressive and critical when you try to help. If you show you care they can quickly decide that you too must be worthless.

 

I then stated that since my bad back prevented me from sitting down, perhaps she would stand up to talk. At this she apologised and stood as well. Looking around in surprise she seemed much more content. We chatted a few more inconsequential things, and she did not mention drink again.

 

She suddenly looked at me and said "You are a very kind man." ...And at that point she smiled, and her troubled face smoothed into a smile of absolute childlike friendliness. So I offered her my hand to shake goodbye and said "And you have the most wonderful smile. I am sure you will be OK."

 

She looked embarrassed but tremendously pleased with the compliment. She seemed steady on her feet and more positive. So, thinking this was probably the best that could be done I smiled back and made my excuses.

 

Leaving, I passed a young lad who'd been watching from some yards away. He seemed very concerned and told me "She's just fallen down again." To which I gnomically replied "It was either five minutes helping or five years." And carried on walking.

[Humanoid]

I've seen someone in a similar position benefit quite a bit from gastric banding or something like that. After a few hospital trips I'd imagine the doctors might raise that option, and they'd be in a better position to evaluate the advantages of that than you would be. So perhaps paradoxically, the fact that she has been hospitalised for the condition makes it less of a concern than someone suffering silently - caveat being that I don't know the state of health care over there.

 

Some might scoff, saying "Doctors? What do they care?", but I'd be inclined to trust them over someone's office colleagues. So at this point I'd personally be wholly unconcerned.

Edited April 4, 2014 by Humanoid

[LadyCrimson]

Offering your company on walks or more healthy lunches is probably as far as you want to push it.  Just letting her know she has your support is all that is necessary.

This. Most of the time it's better to grow/support the friendship, and to hope that if she wants help/support that she'll know you're there for her.

 

Just diving in with unexpected/unsolicited lecture/concerns isn't usually the best way, especially in a work environment. If you're buddies with her family and they ask you to help with some kind of big intervention-like thing because her family is that concerned, that might be one thing, but if you're not ... I'd leave it alone.

[Orogun01]

How about just asking about her health? You don't need to say the other F word, just skim around it while showing some concern about her quality of living.

Also; does anyone else has a problem or can we declare the Obsidian forums Utopia.

[BruceVC]

y

Okay, so I'm going to put on my "manager's cap" here. It looks like a "city cab" cap, if my new avatar is anything to go by...

First off, handled wrongly you run the risk of instigating something - including creating a hostile workplace. Tread very, very carefully.

Second - how do you know about her hospitalization, and how do you know she was put on a diet? Laws may differ where you are, but generally speaking here the only person who has to know WHY a person is out is a supervisor. Are you her supervisor?

If she told you, then she feels close enough to at least tell you her personal information. If so you can, appropriately, ask her how she's doing. I would not bring up the diet. Let her lead the conversation. Ask her if you can help her with anything.

If she did not tell you, and others did, you do not approach her with your knowledge. You can ask her how she's doing (in a general sense) but you're going to have to let her to tell you what's going on in her life before you can realistically comment. Again take the approach of she tells you about her hospitalization - "oh, that's terrible is there anything I can do to help?"

Assuming she's confided in you, ask her what her doctors have told her, ask her if there's anything you can do to help her with what the doctor's have told her to do and above all do not pressure her, grill her, lecture her, scold her or otherwise tell her "I'm better than you, all you need to do is eat healthy like me".

 

I wanted to respond to Amenteps comments because he has made me realize I have made some assumptions and he has asked some pertinent questions, I still believe I am correct in my assessment of her situation but I want to share additional parts of the story

 

This lady is our business units office administrator. She does the office admin, like load the quotes we do into the ERP financial system, and makes the travel arrangements so for example she will book hotels and flights for us. Every Friday we have our sales meeting and her and I are always at the office early, before 6 am like today, so we always chat and we normally chat about her life. Because she is new in the company, 8 months, I help her to effectively use Excel and other Microsoft office products and how certain processes work and try to steer her away from certain people who can be malicious. She in turn tells me about her family and her dad who recently passed away( it may sound strange with her sharing personal details with me but people generally open up to me for some reason and want to tell me personal things). So we are definitely "work friends" but I don't ever see her outside of work. This is an important point

 

When she went to hospital for the first time  she was off work for 1 week so everyone knew about it. When she came back I asked her why. She was a little evasive and didn't say "it was health related" but she said "it was a heart related ". I didn't pry and ask her details. About  2 months ago in the morning I saw her making a toasted sandwich for breakfast and she told me " the doctor had put her on a low GI diet ". I knew then she obviously was on some doctor instructed diet but the issue is she hasn't been sticking to it. She eats junk food everyday and even though I'm not at the office everyday I have asked the people I work with and they all unequivocally have told me that she eats badly

 

So now she is hospital again and her husband has told us its "blood pressure and heart related". So in all honesty I don't know if its due to her diet but all the evidence and everything I have seen and she has told me indicates this.

 

She hasn't asked for my help and part of the problem is " do I really want to get actively involved in her life" as someone mentioned. Anyway that's just some context

[Walsingham]

Sounds to me from your precis that you already suspect it's grief related rather than having found the world's best hotsauce.

 

I don't want to try to give you a  play by play, because that's absurd at this distance. However I would try to make you aware of a point someone else made to me and which my own preceding story illustrates: people are much more willing to accept help if they help you first. I could speculate as to why, but it doesn't really matter.

 

Ask her for help with stuff at work, making sure it is something she can do, then assuming she does a good job thank her for it. Let other people know she did a good job. Personally I'd even bring her a thankyou muffin. Doing so is professionally justifiable, and it will build her up in a way that is independent of any trauma she may be processing.

[Walsingham]

Reminded me to post about sanity loss in Call of Cthulhu.

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/65984-hp-lovecraft-was-an-arse-everyone-roll-for-san-loss/

[Malcador]

She hasn't asked for my help

Then there is no problem.

[Walsingham]

 

She hasn't asked for my help

Then there is no problem.

 

 

 

To pervert a great man's words:

 

I hate to advocate a helping hand, empathy, warm beer, and thoughtless generosity; but they've always worked for me.

 

~

 

When I took a tumble, even over a long period, these last few years, I had more offers of help and kindness than I could count.

 

On behalf of myself, my friends, comrades, passersby, and everyone I've ever assisted: **** your selfish bull****. Right in the sunshine.

[Malcador]

Well as long as it's from no one that matters, that's ok.    Hardly selfish for him to mind his own business.

[Walsingham]

Minding your own business is what killed Kitty Genovese.

 

**** minding your own business. **** it right in the ear.

[Malcador]

So, this situation is comparable to a physical assault. 

 

Interestingly, saw Genovese's murder mentioned on NPR recently - http://www.npr.org/2014/03/03/284002294/what-really-happened-the-night-kitty-genovese-was-murdered

[Walsingham]

So, this situation is comparable to a physical assault. 

 

Interestingly, saw Genovese's murder mentioned on NPR recently - http://www.npr.org/2014/03/03/284002294/what-really-happened-the-night-kitty-genovese-was-murdered

 

The tragedy was not her getting stabbed. Lots of people get stabbed.

 

The tragedy was no-one preventing her dying after she got stabbed.

[Orogun01]

Stop Snitching; the campaign worked!

[Malcador]

The tragedy was not her getting stabbed. Lots of people get stabbed.

 

The tragedy was no-one preventing her dying after she got stabbed.

Neither of which is really relevant here. Though not surprised at this being a problem given the person who's posing it, keeping his nose out will work out fine in the end.

[Hiro Protagonist]

 

She in turn tells me about her family and her dad who recently passed away( it may sound strange with her sharing personal details with me but people generally open up to me for some reason and want to tell me personal things). So we are definitely "work friends" but I don't ever see her outside of work. This is an important point

 

This is just normal office chit-chat. I wouldn't read anything in it if she tells you about her family or what she did on the weekend. It's just being civil and breaking the ice. She might like to talk about something in her social life, but it's not a cue that you're now best buddies and can talk about 'anything'.

 

 

 

When she went to hospital for the first time  she was off work for 1 week so everyone knew about it. When she came back I asked her why. She was a little evasive and didn't say "it was health related" but she said "it was a heart related ". I didn't pry and ask her details.

 

Her being evasive is a cue to mind your own business. She doesn't want to talk about it. Normal social by the office water cooler type discussions (See above about her family or did she have a good weekend)? Yes, she doesn't mind. Personal health related stuff? No.

 

 

About  2 months ago in the morning I saw her making a toasted sandwich for breakfast and she told me " the doctor had put her on a low GI diet ". I knew then she obviously was on some doctor instructed diet but the issue is she hasn't been sticking to it. She eats junk food everyday and even though I'm not at the office everyday I have asked the people I work with and they all unequivocally have told me that she eats badly

 

So now she is hospital again and her husband has told us its "blood pressure and heart related". So in all honesty I don't know if its due to her diet but all the evidence and everything I have seen and she has told me indicates this.

 

She hasn't asked for my help and part of the problem is " do I really want to get actively involved in her life" as someone mentioned. Anyway that's just some context

 

You're prying into her affairs and going behind her back, checking up on her with other staff is really bewildering to be honest. Checking with other staff to see what she eats? That's a new one for me. All that's going to do is get staff gossiping and judging her, what she does, what she eats, etc. You say you're trying to get her away from malicious people in the office but what you're doing is making things worse in the office with all this going behind her back and gossiping about her with other staff. While your intentions may have been good, they're actually going against you and her.

 

How would you feel if someone was being nice and friendly to you and then going behind your back, checking up and talking to other staff, gossiping about what you eat and perhaps 'tsk tsk-ing' you? Some people may think, 'very two-faced' to put it mildly.

 

Her evasiveness should tell you she doesn't want to talk about certain issues with you. As others said, just be a friend at work. Don't talk to other staff about her weight or what she eats. I would not be going behind her back and doing it with other staff and checking up on her, especially with what seems the office staff are now judging her on what she eats.

Edited April 8, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist

[BruceVC]

 

 

She in turn tells me about her family and her dad who recently passed away( it may sound strange with her sharing personal details with me but people generally open up to me for some reason and want to tell me personal things). So we are definitely "work friends" but I don't ever see her outside of work. This is an important point

 

This is just normal office chit-chat. I wouldn't read anything in it if she tells you about her family or what she did on the weekend. It's just being civil and breaking the ice. She might like to talk about something in her social life, but it's not a cue that you're now best buddies and can talk about 'anything'.

 

 

 

When she went to hospital for the first time  she was off work for 1 week so everyone knew about it. When she came back I asked her why. She was a little evasive and didn't say "it was health related" but she said "it was a heart related ". I didn't pry and ask her details.

 

Her being evasive is a cue to mind your own business. She doesn't want to talk about it. Normal social by the office water cooler type discussions (See above about her family or did she have a good weekend)? Yes, she doesn't mind. Personal health related stuff? No.

 

 

About  2 months ago in the morning I saw her making a toasted sandwich for breakfast and she told me " the doctor had put her on a low GI diet ". I knew then she obviously was on some doctor instructed diet but the issue is she hasn't been sticking to it. She eats junk food everyday and even though I'm not at the office everyday I have asked the people I work with and they all unequivocally have told me that she eats badly

 

So now she is hospital again and her husband has told us its "blood pressure and heart related". So in all honesty I don't know if its due to her diet but all the evidence and everything I have seen and she has told me indicates this.

 

She hasn't asked for my help and part of the problem is " do I really want to get actively involved in her life" as someone mentioned. Anyway that's just some context

 

You're prying into her affairs and going behind her back, checking up on her with other staff is really bewildering to be honest. Checking with other staff to see what she eats? That's a new one for me. All that's going to do is get staff gossiping and judging her, what she does, what she eats, etc. You say you're trying to get her away from malicious people in the office but what you're doing is making things worse in the office with all this going behind her back and gossiping about her with other staff. While your intentions may have been good, they're actually going against you and her.

 

How would you feel if someone was being nice and friendly to you and then going behind your back, checking up and talking to other staff, gossiping about what you eat and perhaps 'tsk tsk-ing' you? Some people may think, 'very two-faced' to put it mildly.

 

Her evasiveness should tell you she doesn't want to talk about certain issues with you. As others said, just be a friend at work. Don't talk to other staff about her weight or what she eats. I would not be going behind her back and doing it with other staff and checking up on her, especially with what seems the office staff are now judging her on what she eats.

 

 

You have raised some good points and considerations. Just for the record I have been very discreet about who I asked around her eating habits, I had to ask because I wanted to be sure her diet was as bad as I thought. But I can see how my intentions may create a possibly negative environment for her. But I don't think it will as the people I chatted to know the seriousness of the situation

 

Anyway when she is back from hospital I'll be chatting to her as a concerned friend and make innocuous enquiries around her diet with her privately

[Hiro Protagonist]

I'm not having a go at you Bruce. The best thing you can do in an office environment is to listen and not talk about people with others which turns into gossip. This is especially true for supervisor or manager roles. Managers have to keep a lot of secrets. Employees come to managers with their concerns and expect a degree of confidentiality depending on what the concern is. If a manager comes across as someone who's approachable, listens and doesn't gossip, then employees will feel comfortable expressing their concerns.

 

I'm reminded of a quote from the Tom Hanks character in Saving Private Ryan:

 

I don't gripe to *you*, Reiben. I'm a captain. There's a chain of command. Gripes go up, not down. Always up. You gripe to me, I gripe to my superior officer, so on, so on, and so on. I don't gripe to you. I don't gripe in front of you. You should know that as a Ranger.

 

This is basically what you should do in an office environment. If you have concerns, go up the chain of command. Never down. If a person above you knows, then generally that's where it ends for you. It's out of your hands. Move on. It's up to your superior to do something if they want to. If other people are gossiping, then try and nip it in the bud. If people are talking about someone, don't join in. Depending on the situation, probably best to walk away instead of starting an argument about gossiping. Because, then you get those people offside with you.

 

Don't be the person who others think, 'oh better not tell him, he'll tell the whole office'. Be the person who listens and keeps it to themselves. A confidant. Employees will respect you more and come to you for advice on many issues if they have trust in you. They're confiding in you, not you and three other people that you tell and they don't know about. Let them come to you, to feel comfortable, not for you to pursue them. Otherwise they'll think you're being nosy or pushy.

Edited April 8, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist

[Hiro Protagonist]

Anyway when she is back from hospital I'll be chatting to her as a concerned friend and make innocuous enquiries around her diet with her privately

 

To be honest, I really don't know why it's your concern and why you're pursuing it. She's given you a cue that she's not comfortable talking about it to you. I'd move on and let her come to you, not for you to continually go to her. Especially, making enquiries about her diet. I'd find that very rude.

[BruceVC]

 

Anyway when she is back from hospital I'll be chatting to her as a concerned friend and make innocuous enquiries around her diet with her privately

 

To be honest, I really don't know why it's your concern and why you're pursuing it. She's given you a cue that she's not comfortable talking about it to you. I'd move on and let her come to you, not for you to continually go to her. Especially, making enquiries about her diet. I'd find that very rude.

 

 

Okay just some additional input, I did chat to my GM but he doesn't feel its his place to say anything as he feels this is a personal matter. But that's what most people would say, so what is the result of that? No one does or says anything and she continues to deteriorate. So what happens if 3 months from now she dies due to a health/diet related reason. Do I just say "oh well there was nothing I could have done and it wasn't my place to say anything"

 

To be honest I would rather she thought I was nosy then I did nothing. Of course I understand that there is a certain way I need to approach this situation so she isn't embarrassed, if my initial advice or input is totally rejected then I won't pursue it anymore

[Hiro Protagonist]

You said she feels uncomfortable talking about it. She doesn't want to talk about it to you. Respect her decision and her privacy. It sounds like you're not doing it for her, but you're doing this for yourself.

[BruceVC]

You said she feels uncomfortable talking about it. She doesn't want to talk about it to you. Respect her decision and her privacy. It sounds like you're not doing it for her, but you're doing this for yourself.

 

I've never asked her directly about her diet and the exact reasons she ended up in hospital, she has always alluded to certain health problems. But the issue of her health has always bothered me. Anyway thanks for the input. I will give serious thought to what I say and how I say it

[Mor]

I think you should mind your own business.

What a ****-ish response. When A co-worker hospitalized for a week, at the very least you should inquire about his\her health, its basic social skills 101.

 

 

When she went to hospital for the first time  she was off work for 1 week so everyone knew about it. When she came back I asked her why. She was a little evasive and didn't say "it was health related" but she said "it was a heart related ". I didn't pry and ask her details.

 

Her being evasive is a cue to mind your own business. She doesn't want to talk about it. Normal social by the office water cooler type discussions (See above about her family or did she have a good weekend)? Yes, she doesn't mind. Personal health related stuff? No.

 

I don't see the harm in inquiring about health related stuff, but I agree with the rest there is difference between caring and prying i.e. know your boundaries and don't push, certainly don't gosip about it will help no one other than satisfy your own curiosity.