Global Implications of the Ukraine Crisis

[BruceVC]

Not too sure about that, some of RT's stuff is pretty cringeworthy. Then again the stuff I have seen is on par with FOX news.

 

I agree, Fox and RT are on the same level IMO. And its a very low level for the objectivity of news

[Valsuelm]

 

 

So unfortunately as usual you are basing your argument on a spurious premise. You say "why do you choose to believe one version over the other".

 

Lets take 9/11, Al-Qaeda perpetuated 9/11. This is not the view of one source or one country. In summary

 

• Every Western international news channel has the same story, 9/11 was committed by Al-Qaeda
• Al-Jazeera and other non-Western news channels have the same story
• Al-Qaeda has admitted planning and committing 9/11
• There are numerous interviews with Al-Qaeda members and other people where they discuss and share why AQ planned 9/11
• There are whole organizations and security companies  that were and are dedicated to 9/11 and the causes of 9/11. Surly you cannot think that if 9/11 was some sort of conspiracy we wouldn't have some sort of proof by now
• Individuals like Julian Assange and Edward Snowden have made it there goal in life to expose the USA for all its "skulduggery and dishonesty". If there was this great secret how come there have been NO credible examples of it that these people would have loved to bring to the worlds attention. Especially with Snowden who had access to the NSA information

So a dismissal of  a conspiracy theory is not based on one story or view. Its a combination of the facts and reality of a situation

 

 

I don't think you understand what spurious actually means. But seeing how you can't seem to distinguish between "perpetuate" and "perpetrate", this shouldn't come as a surprise. I wonder if you actually do this sort of thing on purpose, like oby's occasionally mangled grammar. If that's the case, props for the low key trolling.

 

I'll start off by saying that I'm not terribly interested in 9/11 conspiracy theories and don't really follow the latest trends. Regardless, the first four points are circular logic, "this is the truth because it's the official accepted version and the official version is the true one". The fifth point has some merit, but if you dig a bit into the official 9/11 findings, you can see the conclusions fail to address some relevant issues. Not in my opinion, but in that of people in the know. It's probably not realistic to expect a final report that squashes all possible doubts, but that's not a blank check for sloppiness.

 

The fifth point is, by far, the one that best proves just how uninformed and biased you are. The NSA has openly admitted to colluding with big tech firms to organize a massive, automated illegal surveillance ring. This is not a conspiracy theory, it's a full-fledged, straight up, no-nonsense, billion dollar conspiracy that was exposed only because an insider blew the whistle. Start by reading up on XKEYSCORE and PRISM and go from there. This stuff isn't even secret, it's on the NYT and Wikipedia, for Pete's sake.

 

None of this means that every conspiracy theory out there is to be believed. But it means you should be careful with what sources you choose to trust and that you should be mindful of attempts to dismiss claims or questions solely by virtue of them being labelled "conspiracy theories" regardless of their merit.

 

 

Thanks for the correction on "perpetuate" and "perpetrate". That was an unintentional mistake, I have no issues with you correcting me on any perceived incorrect usage of words.

 

But spurious is valid in my post,  your view is false and incorrect

 

 

Ah.. more of your

 

 

usual holier-than-thou, fake ass amicable and thoroughly revolting condescending tone

 

 

Your ignorance rises to a special level BruceVC. I'll give you this, of all the people I've ever run across on a forum anywhere, your indignant armor to reality is the thickest. In media you'd be akin to Piers Morgan, hubris, haughty holier than thou attitude, and all. Pretty much no matter what anyone ever writes your viewpoint is near impervious. And to address your first quotebox above, you really just show how much you let other people do your thinking for you.

 

I'll leave the 9/11 issue at this for you as it's a good litmus test in regards to actual knowledge of the event. Until you (or anyone else who swallows whole and faithful the official conspiracy theory on 9/11) can write at least a couple of paragraphs about the significance of Building Seven during that event, citing actual facts about it, and why it is significant on the number of levels that it is, especially in relation to the official narrative, you truly have not done your homework and allowed others to do your thinking for you.

Edited April 12, 2014 by Valsuelm

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

Ah.. more of your

 

 

usual holier-than-thou, fake ass amicable and thoroughly revolting condescending tone

 

 

Your ignorance rises to a special level BruceVC. I'll give you this, of all the people I've ever run across on a forum anywhere, your indignant armor to reality is the thickest. In media you'd be akin to Piers Morgan, hubris, haughty holier than thou attitude, and all. Pretty much no matter what anyone ever writes your viewpoint is near impervious. And to address your first quotebox above, you really just show how much you let other people do your thinking for you.

 

I'll leave the 9/11 issue at this for you as it's a good litmus test in regards to actual knowledge of the event. Until you (or anyone else who swallows whole and faithful the official conspiracy theory on 9/11) can write at least a couple of paragraphs about the significance of Building Seven during that event, citing actual facts about it, and why it is significant on the number of levels that it is, especially in relation to the official narrative, you truly have not done your homework and allowed others to do your thinking for you.

 

 

Its funny you mention Piers Morgan, I really admire him and loved his show. He was shutdown by the right wing and the NRA in the USA, a pity because he made loads of sense. But to be fair to America you can't have an outsider lecturing morality and whats socially acceptable. So his time was limited, I realize that now

 

And Vals remember, I won't give up on you..I'll keep trying to get you to see the reality of how the world really operates

Edited April 12, 2014 by BruceVC

[Tigranes]

Of course quality of life indices show Westernised nations at the top, because the index is developed by Westernised minds who define good quality of life according to a particular Western tradition.  

 

Hey, I'm one of them, I like Western urbanised environments and (probably) capitalism and (as far as I can 'know', which I can't) Western medicine and (I suppose, though I've never experienced otherwise) liberal democracies. But nobody has any business being so arrogant as to think the West has found The Answer and there is no getting better than that, or even that the current system is better than anything we've known or imagined in the past. Especially without lengthy and deep involvement with non-Western systems, ideologies, literature and ways of life.

[Valsuelm]

 

Its funny you mention Piers Morgan, I really admire him and loved his show. He was shutdown by the right wing and the NRA in the USA, a pity because he made loads of sense. But to be fair to America you can't have an outsider lecturing morality and whats socially acceptable. So his time was limited, I realize that now

 

 

Piers was shut down despite CNN's best efforts because of his abysmal ratings, and no other reason. The NRA and 'right wing' had nothing to do with it other than they, along with most everyone else wasn't watching him.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Tigranes, on 12 Apr 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:

Of course quality of life indices show Westernised nations at the top, because the index is developed by Westernised minds who define good quality of life according to a particular Western tradition.  

 

Hey, I'm one of them, I like Western urbanised environments and (probably) capitalism and (as far as I can 'know', which I can't) Western medicine and (I suppose, though I've never experienced otherwise) liberal democracies. But nobody has any business being so arrogant as to think the West has found The Answer and there is no getting better than that, or even that the current system is better than anything we've known or imagined in the past. Especially without lengthy and deep involvement with non-Western systems, ideologies, literature and ways of life.

OK, what was in the past that's better than Western civilization?

[BruceVC]

 

Tigranes, on 12 Apr 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:

Of course quality of life indices show Westernised nations at the top, because the index is developed by Westernised minds who define good quality of life according to a particular Western tradition.  

 

Hey, I'm one of them, I like Western urbanised environments and (probably) capitalism and (as far as I can 'know', which I can't) Western medicine and (I suppose, though I've never experienced otherwise) liberal democracies. But nobody has any business being so arrogant as to think the West has found The Answer and there is no getting better than that, or even that the current system is better than anything we've known or imagined in the past. Especially without lengthy and deep involvement with non-Western systems, ideologies, literature and ways of life.

OK, what was in the past that's better than Western civilization?

 

 

Also if the indexes are flawed because they are based on Western qualities of a good life then maybe you can share what other variables are important. The links I posted discuss scores like purchasing power, safety, healthcare and pollution levels. And I'm sure those are universal values that every culture and country aspires to?

[ShadySands]

 

Tigranes, on 12 Apr 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:

Of course quality of life indices show Westernised nations at the top, because the index is developed by Westernised minds who define good quality of life according to a particular Western tradition.  

 

Hey, I'm one of them, I like Western urbanised environments and (probably) capitalism and (as far as I can 'know', which I can't) Western medicine and (I suppose, though I've never experienced otherwise) liberal democracies. But nobody has any business being so arrogant as to think the West has found The Answer and there is no getting better than that, or even that the current system is better than anything we've known or imagined in the past. Especially without lengthy and deep involvement with non-Western systems, ideologies, literature and ways of life.

OK, what was in the past that's better than Western civilization?

 

 

Atlantis

[HoonDing]

I would've said the Ming empire.

[obyknven]

 

Tigranes, on 12 Apr 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:

Of course quality of life indices show Westernised nations at the top, because the index is developed by Westernised minds who define good quality of life according to a particular Western tradition.  

 

Hey, I'm one of them, I like Western urbanised environments and (probably) capitalism and (as far as I can 'know', which I can't) Western medicine and (I suppose, though I've never experienced otherwise) liberal democracies. But nobody has any business being so arrogant as to think the West has found The Answer and there is no getting better than that, or even that the current system is better than anything we've known or imagined in the past. Especially without lengthy and deep involvement with non-Western systems, ideologies, literature and ways of life.

OK, what was in the past that's better than Western civilization?

 

 

You question so laughable. 12 April is International Day of Human Space Flight in dedication of the first manned space flight made on April 12, 1961 by the 27-year-old Russian Soviet cosmonaut Yuri Gagarin. Gagarin circled the Earth for 1 hour and 48 minutes aboard the East 1 spacecraft.

Non-Western cosmonaut on spaceship East-1 is first human in space  lol.  It's best reminder about how backward Western civilization really is.

[Zoraptor]

The Chinese were ahead of the west for pretty much 2000 years.

 

Meh, I pretty much agree with Tigranes.

 

Never really understood the urge to point at other people and insist that because I'm better than them it means that everything is fine and I don't need to improve, and that's really what it amounts to. Also never understood the need for validation from being part of a society that I'm part of by virtue of the accident of being born into New Zealand rather than Afghanistan or Eritrea or the CAR. Yay me, such an achievement to be born here, no need to look critically at anything since I can point at survey X and metric Y to reinforce my innate superiority over people from inferior countries.

 

Same with media, Russian media is biased and designed to present their narrative and news that their populace likes, but so are western media. People like stories and media which reinforce their pre-existing views because they make them feel that they are right, and everyone likes being right. People tend to dislike stuff which challenge their views as you then have to entertain the possibility that you are actually wrong. Even if CNN wanted to they would find it difficult to provide balanced news, a significant proportion of their viewership would regard anything even slightly pro Russian (or practically, not anti Russian) as being akin to active treason and literally turn off.

 

Anyway, looks like things are going down in Ukraine in a pretty predictable manner. Most interesting thing was that the AlJ reporter actually said in the video bulletin that apart from the ex Berkut and local police mentioned in that article some of those manning the separatist checkpoints were definitely Ukrainian army, which rather contrasts with the rent-a-mob accusations which are usually heard. And, of course, it's always somewhat amusing hearing yet another Nyoo Zillund uksunt on AlJ.

[Mor]

Of course quality of life indices show Westernised nations at the top, because the index is developed by Westernised minds who define good quality of life according to a particular Western tradition.  

 

Hey, I'm one of them, I like Western urbanised environments and (probably) capitalism and (as far as I can 'know', which I can't) Western medicine and (I suppose, though I've never experienced otherwise) liberal democracies. But nobody has any business being so arrogant as to think the West has found The Answer and there is no getting better than that, or even that the current system is better than anything we've known or imagined in the past. Especially without lengthy and deep involvement with non-Western systems, ideologies, literature and ways of life.

I am not certain what you mean by "Westernised minds". Quality of life index are very simple measuring things such life expectancy, education, purchase power, health care, safety etc... It doesn't presume to speak about urbanized environments or capitalism/socialism in fact many EU urbanish socialist countries are at the top of that list(e.g. Sweden) and for example the UN Human Development Index was developed by Indian guy.

 

Anyway unless you have any alternative Western or "non western" ranking system that quantify quality of life that we can measure up, that has drastically different results, what you suggest just is PC blank statement that does nothing but reinforce those here who already know that their way is best way.

 

As for bias western media are as bad as RT, they're just (somewhat) better at hiding it and use more subtle techniques like false balance

[...]

 

Most westerners think our media is better due to simple confirmation bias- they say what people want to hear, confirm our obvious superiority and hence are, obviously, correct. But five minutes research shows what a load of slanted garbage we're actually being presented with. And if I can do that for free they, with all their resources, should be able to do it on a professional level, but they don't. They're capable of it, they just don't want to.

Confirmation bias well speaking of confirmations, everything I said (i.e. Russia nationalization and consolidation of major mass media, providing guidelines on content, being at the top of censorship list and at the bottom of freedom of press lists, and the government pursuing various charges against prominent critic of government and Putin in particular) all of it can be confirmed by readily available data. While what you assert is nothing but you opinion, either based on "research" (selective examples that you try to pass as inductive of the rule) or as non-quantifiable/ambiguous assertions in which we can easily substituted Russia with China, North Korea or Nicaragua to prove whatever.

 

Never really understood the urge to point at other people and insist that because I'm better than them it means that everything is fine and I don't need to improve, and that's really what it amounts to. Also never understood the need for validation from being part of a society that I'm part of by virtue of the accident of being born into New Zealand rather than Afghanistan or Eritrea or the CAR. Yay me, such an achievement to be born here, no need to look critically at anything since I can point at survey X and metric Y to reinforce my innate superiority over people from inferior countries.

That is a nice generic statement I agree with, only it has nothing todo with topic. No one insist let alone suggested that everything is fine with our system or that there isn't anything to improve etc, but then again "our system" isn't exactly the topic here, and all that psychobabble jazz you are shoveling is nothing but a consistent attempts to deflect from the critical thinking and criticism of the topic at hand, with generic vague finger pointing that serve nothing but reinforce your beliefs. The ranking system was brought up not to validate our beliefs, but to provide you with the data to question yours, because all that vague farce about west this and west that is really annoying...

 

Well thought you meant they were Russian as they are in land of censorship or something.

Well some of the posters\topics tend to repeat and overlap (like the one above, which tracks back to the first thread), its pointless\hard to track the meaningless arguments, which is why I refer to "you guys". I guess it sometime sips into quick replies.. Edited April 13, 2014 by Mor

[BruceVC]

The Chinese were ahead of the west for pretty much 2000 years.

 

Meh, I pretty much agree with Tigranes.

 

Never really understood the urge to point at other people and insist that because I'm better than them it means that everything is fine and I don't need to improve, and that's really what it amounts to. Also never understood the need for validation from being part of a society that I'm part of by virtue of the accident of being born into New Zealand rather than Afghanistan or Eritrea or the CAR. Yay me, such an achievement to be born here, no need to look critically at anything since I can point at survey X and metric Y to reinforce my innate superiority over people from inferior countries.

 

Same with media, Russian media is biased and designed to present their narrative and news that their populace likes, but so are western media. People like stories and media which reinforce their pre-existing views because they make them feel that they are right, and everyone likes being right. People tend to dislike stuff which challenge their views as you then have to entertain the possibility that you are actually wrong. Even if CNN wanted to they would find it difficult to provide balanced news, a significant proportion of their viewership would regard anything even slightly pro Russian (or practically, not anti Russian) as being akin to active treason and literally turn off.

 

Anyway, looks like things are going down in Ukraine in a pretty predictable manner. Most interesting thing was that the AlJ reporter actually said in the video bulletin that apart from the ex Berkut and local police mentioned in that article some of those manning the separatist checkpoints were definitely Ukrainian army, which rather contrasts with the rent-a-mob accusations which are usually heard. And, of course, it's always somewhat amusing hearing yet another Nyoo Zillund uksunt on AlJ.

 

When did anyone say that Western culture is perfect and doesn't need to improve on any aspect of its culture?

 

I said that governments in Western countries give there citizens the best quality of life and I proved it by posting several links. I made this point because I wanted to settle the debate " what makes Western society better than say Russian or other societies". If you have another way of measuring happiness levels across countries please post it. But I refuse to say, just because its politically correct, that the quality of life in places like Russia or China for the average citizen is the same as most Western countries. This may sound arrogant but its not intended to be, its just the reality of governments in the modern world and how they manage there countries

 

Also the issue with RT is that it is an international news channel. Its suppose to present the news to world and not just there local population. That's why the objectivity is important

[Valsuelm]

 

Anyway unless you have any alternative Western or "non western" ranking system that quantify quality of life that we can measure up, that has drastically different results, what you suggest just is PC blank statement that does nothing but reinforce those here who already know that their way is best way.

 

 

Know  that their way is best way? Such a person knows squat, diddly, poop, and is full of themselves to an extreme degree. 'Hubris' doesn't fully describe it, but it goes a long way in doing so, 'Stupidity' is probably the best word for the rest of the way. Really and truly, if you really think you 'know' your way is the best way, you know close to nothing.

 

 

 

When did anyone say that Western culture is perfect and doesn't need to improve on any aspect of its culture?

 

I said that governments in Western countries give there citizens the best quality of life and I proved it by posting several links. I

 

 

The only thing you've 'proved' is how ignorant and full of yourself you are. Yet again. You are quite good at offering us all proof of this quite often.

 

Oh, and congrats again on being a subject of your government, thinking it is your government who provides the quality of life to the folks under it's rule. You are such a good serf. Such a good subject. Your superior comrades, king, or queen are no doubt happy to have you as such a loyal subordinate.

 

Really, if you think there's a scale that can quantify what is the best culture you're either naive, ignorant, full of yourself, stupid, some combination of, or all of the above.

 

Here's probably the best scale I can think of out there in regards to what is the best nation to live in:

 

The suicide rate by nation.

 

As obviously if it's such a great place to live for everyone, no one would kill themselves.

 

In no way would I say that even the above is any kind of great indicator of what is the best culture. Though it's certainly more relevant I'd say that the links you provided.

 

And in regards to those links. By one of them I live in the #1 culture, and while there are few other places on earth I'd consider living in, I wouldn't say my culture's way is necessarily the best way (especially in 2014 USA), and it certainly isn't for everyone.

 

Of the supposed top ten nations on that list, exactly half of them I would move the hell out of as fast as possible if I was there as their governments are way too fascist and/or communist for me. Of your other list, the top 4, absolutely no way would I want to live there, for the same reason. Sweden? Australia? Nice places to visit sure, great people, I have friends in both places.. but their laws and government are way too oppressive, corrupt, and inept. Unless of course you are a happy good loyal subordinate serf who bathes in socialism and the 'glory' (*cough* *choke* *gag**vomit*) of their queen.

 

Seriously. What's good for one person is not good for another. One man's trash is another man's treasure. #@*( anyone who would forcibly impose their nation/culture's way of life on anyone else, especially if they do it under the false auspices of 'we're doing it for your own good because our way is better'. There's a special place in hell reserved for such folks.

Edited April 13, 2014 by Valsuelm

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Know  that their way is best way? Such a person knows squat, diddly, poop, and is full of themselves to an extreme degree. 'Hubris' doesn't fully describe it, but it goes a long way in doing so, 'Stupidity' is probably the best word for the rest of the way. Really and truly, if you really think you 'know' your way is the best way, you know close to nothing.

 

 

 

When did anyone say that Western culture is perfect and doesn't need to improve on any aspect of its culture?

 

I said that governments in Western countries give there citizens the best quality of life and I proved it by posting several links. I

 

 

The only thing you've 'proved' is how ignorant and full of yourself you are. Yet again. You are quite good at offering us all proof of this quite often.

 

Oh, and congrats again on being a subject of your government, thinking it is your government who provides the quality of life to the folks under it's rule. You are such a good serf. Such a good subject. Your superior comrades, king, or queen are no doubt happy to have you as such a loyal subordinate.

 

Really, if you think there's a scale that can quantify what is the best culture you're either naive, ignorant, full of yourself, stupid, some combination of, or all of the above.

 

Here's probably the best scale I can think of out there in regards to what is the best nation to live in:

 

The suicide rate by nation.

 

As obviously if it's such a great place to live for everyone, no one would kill themselves.

In no way would I say that even the above is any kind of great indicator of what is the best culture. Though it's certainly more relevant I'd say that the links you provided.

 

And in regards to those links. By one of them I live in the #1 culture, and while there are few other places on earth I'd consider living in, I wouldn't say my culture's way is the best way (especially in 2014 USA).

 

Of the supposed top ten nations on that list, exactly half of them I would move the hell out of as fast as possible as their governments are way too fascist or communist for me. Of your other list, the top 4, absolutely no way would I want to live there, for the same reason. Sweden? Australia? Nice places to visit sure, great people, I have friends in both places.. but their laws and government are way too oppressive, corrupt, and inept. Unless of course you are a happy good loyal subordinate serf who bathes in socialism and the 'glory' (*cough* *choke* *gag**vomit*) of their queen.

 

Seriously. What's good for one person is not good for another. One man's trash is another man's treasure. #@*( anyone who would forcibly impose their way of life on anyone else, especially if they do it under the false auspices of 'we're doing it for your own good'. There's a special place in hell reserved for such folks.

 

 

Morning Vals How are you doing today ?

 

So despite the fact that I can give another 6 or 7 links that discuss various indexes that represent what countries have the best quality of life you think the best way to measure this should be based on  how few people commit suicide

 

Seriously dude you make me laugh....try to listen to what you are saying. Suicide is normally caused by depression, depression is a chemical imbalance and your quality of life for a depressed person can make no difference around a decision to end there life

 

And yes I believe in governments and paying taxes. I believe governments have a responsibility to provide certain basic services and we need to support them by not breaking the law and paying your rates and taxes. So if this makes me a serf then I guess I am one. But I don't mind being a serf because I think I live a really good lifestyle

Edited April 13, 2014 by BruceVC

[Walsingham]

Suicide is a complex phenomenon. I'd argue it's only partly rational.

 

You know what's a comparable logical model? Migration. If a society sucks, how many people leave and where do they go?

[Hassat Hunter]

So, just opened my newssites, and read ****'s hitting the fan in East-Ukrain.

2 people dead already.

 

I guess all bets are off how the response will be to this 'anti-terror' operation from Kiev...

[Wrath of Dagon]

I'm sure Putin is licking his chops.

[Walsingham]

I'm sure Putin is licking his chops.

 

Just so long as he doesn't lick my chops. Like last time. My face smelled of stale toffee for days.

[Drowsy Emperor]

The amount of irrational hate you people harbor for the guy is ridiculous. 

 

The US and EU pulled the trigger on this one. The Russian response was necessary and predictable (which is the goal of the US anyway if one reads the discussion on splitting up Ukraine in Huntington's "Clash of Civilizations"). If it erupts into a civil war, blaming Putin is mere hypocrisy. Putin is doing what Putin has to do but the US did not have to overthrow the government in Ukraine.

 

Naturally, I'm against civil war and splitting Ukraine. If it comes to that the Russians should intervene and break Kiev's back quickly before the conflict turns into the agony of the Balkan wars and millions end up dead over nothing.

[BruceVC]

The amount of irrational hate you people harbor for the guy is ridiculous. 

 

The US and EU pulled the trigger on this one. The Russian response was necessary and predictable (which is the goal of the US anyway if one reads the discussion on splitting up Ukraine in Huntington's "Clash of Civilizations"). If it erupts into a civil war, blaming Putin is mere hypocrisy. Putin is doing what Putin has to do but the US did not have to overthrow the government in Ukraine.

 

Naturally, I'm against civil war and splitting Ukraine. If it comes to that the Russians should intervene and break Kiev's back quickly before the conflict turns into the agony of the Balkan wars and millions end up dead over nothing.

 

I never cease to be amazed by the justification that supporters of Putin go around the Ukraine crisis, your post highlights an aspect of it

 

So now we have a situation in eastern Ukraine where several cities have there government building occupied by well organised and armed Russian speaking militias. This is a situation that no government in the world would accept

 

These are legitimate Ukrainian government buildings outside of Crimea. It is obvious that Russia is fermenting and encouraging insurrection against the Ukrainian government with an end goal to force a federal system of government in parts of Ukraine that is favourable to Russia

 

You are an intelligent person, are you really going to sit there and tell me that you think Russia is not directly involved in this social unrest. And I mean outside of Crimea in other  eastern parts of Ukraine

Edited April 14, 2014 by BruceVC

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

The amount of irrational hate you people harbor for the guy is ridiculous. 

 

The US and EU pulled the trigger on this one. The Russian response was necessary and predictable (which is the goal of the US anyway if one reads the discussion on splitting up Ukraine in Huntington's "Clash of Civilizations"). If it erupts into a civil war, blaming Putin is mere hypocrisy. Putin is doing what Putin has to do but the US did not have to overthrow the government in Ukraine.

 

Naturally, I'm against civil war and splitting Ukraine. If it comes to that the Russians should intervene and break Kiev's back quickly before the conflict turns into the agony of the Balkan wars and millions end up dead over nothing.

 

I never cease to be amazed by the justification that supporters of Putin go around the Ukraine crisis, your post highlights an aspect of it

 

So now we have a situation in eastern Ukraine where several cities have there government building occupied by well organised and armed Russian speaking militias. This is a situation that no government in the world would accept

 

These are legitimate Ukrainian government buildings outside of Crimea. It is obvious that Russia is fermenting and encouraging insurrection against the Ukrainian government with an end goal to force a federal system of government in parts of Ukraine that is favourable to Russia

 

You are an intelligent person, are you really going to sit there and tell me that you think Russia is not directly involved in this social unrest. And I mean outside of Crimea in other  eastern parts of Ukraine

 

 

They're as involved in this unrest as the EU and US were in the Euromaidan. The west overthrew the legitimately elected government (Yanukovich won his elections fairly) because it said "no" and installed an illegitimate one. European heads of state were parading in the street, supporting insurrection while protesters were burning Kiev.

Now that your side has achieved its goals (at the expense of quite a few dead Ukrainians) you want the situation to stabilize and go back to business as usual.

 

Except the Russians can't let that happen and everyone knew they wouldn't. The Russians feel their vital interests are threatened by this. Its a fair concern, the two countries do share a border after all.

 

Is what the Russians are doing okay? No. But its important to note that everything that is happening is a reaction to the US and EU destabilization of the region.

[Bartimaeus]

 

You are an intelligent person, are you really going to sit there and tell me that you think Russia is not directly involved in this social unrest. And I mean outside of Crimea in other  eastern parts of Ukraine

 

 

I don't think that's what he said...I think was saying that Russia is only doing what the U.S. did...maybe more directly, but nevertheless. There's no *proof* (that I know of) of U.S. involvement, mind you, but as hegemon, we seem to always be assumed to be involved when things go favorably for us...and there's history to suggest that it's certainly possible.

 

@Drowsy Emperor: hypocrisy in regards to politics does not really concern me - perhaps because all politicians, and the things derived from them (governments), all seem to be hypocritical no matter what way you look at it, but maybe that's just me. It also doesn't help that things seem to be much more "apparent" as to who's "wrong" in the Ukraine situation - i.e. the people actually conducting an invasion. People just root for the side they're on, no matter the reasons, (although that side might not always be what one would expect). 

Edited April 14, 2014 by Bartimaeus

[BruceVC]

 

 

The amount of irrational hate you people harbor for the guy is ridiculous. 

 

The US and EU pulled the trigger on this one. The Russian response was necessary and predictable (which is the goal of the US anyway if one reads the discussion on splitting up Ukraine in Huntington's "Clash of Civilizations"). If it erupts into a civil war, blaming Putin is mere hypocrisy. Putin is doing what Putin has to do but the US did not have to overthrow the government in Ukraine.

 

Naturally, I'm against civil war and splitting Ukraine. If it comes to that the Russians should intervene and break Kiev's back quickly before the conflict turns into the agony of the Balkan wars and millions end up dead over nothing.

 

I never cease to be amazed by the justification that supporters of Putin go around the Ukraine crisis, your post highlights an aspect of it

 

So now we have a situation in eastern Ukraine where several cities have there government building occupied by well organised and armed Russian speaking militias. This is a situation that no government in the world would accept

 

These are legitimate Ukrainian government buildings outside of Crimea. It is obvious that Russia is fermenting and encouraging insurrection against the Ukrainian government with an end goal to force a federal system of government in parts of Ukraine that is favourable to Russia

 

You are an intelligent person, are you really going to sit there and tell me that you think Russia is not directly involved in this social unrest. And I mean outside of Crimea in other  eastern parts of Ukraine

 

 

They're as involved in this unrest as the EU and US were in the Euromaidan. The west overthrew the legitimately elected government (Yanukovich won his elections fairly) because it said "no" and installed an illegitimate one. European heads of state were parading in the street, supporting insurrection while protesters were burning Kiev.

Now that your side has achieved its goals (at the expense of quite a few dead Ukrainians) you want the situation to stabilize and go back to business as usual.

 

Except the Russians can't let that happen and everyone knew they wouldn't. The Russians feel their vital interests are threatened by this. Its a fair concern, the two countries do share a border after all.

 

Is what the Russians are doing okay? No. But its important to note that everything that is happening is a reaction to the US and EU destabilization of the region.

 

You make some good points around the Wests involvement in the overthrow of Yanukovich and the result of that  but was the West that directly involved? My understanding is that an EU aligned Ukrainian government replaced Yanukovich. But were there Western soldiers in Kiev and were there Western government's actively controlling the anti-Yanukovich movement ?

 

So in other words Russia's current involvement in Ukraine is much more direct than anything the West did around the removal of Yanukovich. I understand why Russia is doing it but that doesn't make it more right or acceptable

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

 

You are an intelligent person, are you really going to sit there and tell me that you think Russia is not directly involved in this social unrest. And I mean outside of Crimea in other  eastern parts of Ukraine

 

 

I don't think that's what he said...I think was saying that Russia is only doing what the U.S. did...maybe more directly, but nevertheless. There's no *proof* (that I know of) of U.S. involvement, mind you, but as hegemon, we seem to always be assumed to be involved when things go favorably for us...and there's history to suggest that it's certainly possible.

 

@Drowsy Emperor: hypocrisy in regards to politics does not really concern me - perhaps because all politicians, and the things derived from them (governments), all seem to be hypocritical no matter what way you look at it, but maybe that's just me. It also doesn't help that things seem to be much more "apparent" as to who's "wrong" in the Ukraine situation - i.e. the people actually conducting an invasion. People just root for the side they're on, no matter the reasons, (although that side might not always be what one would expect). 

 

 

There is plenty of proof.

 

US ambassador in Kiev and US assistant secretary of state discussing who should be the next Ukrainian government, literally hand picking them.

 

Before declaring the Crimea situation an invasion you'd have to read up on Crimean history. Technically it is taking over a part of another sovereign country (like in Kosovo) but Crimea was a part of Russia for a very long time and came into Ukrainian possession in a very unnatural manner (as a gift from a head of state that had no business giving away what wasn't his to give in first place).

 

I'm looking at this from a Russian perspective because that perspective is lacking in this discussion but I'm not thrilled by anyone destabilizing a sovereign country that is already in dire straights (economically) because I know what this spells for the Ukrainian people.