Global Implications of the Ukraine Crisis

[obyknven]

Ukrainian punishers with grenades vs unarmed Ukrainian people.

http://youtu.be/2B2r1SWE-j8

[Mor]

On the topic of global implications:

Edited April 16, 2014 by Mor

[Mor]

 

You are under the wrong impression that Russia has any interest in deescalating the situation, as oppose to acting on their old threats, in pattern that we all seen but wanted to ignore.

 

Yes, Russia wants what is arguably it's most important geographic neighbor to remain unstable and plunge into civil war. They also want World War 3 as fast as possible. They are doing everything in their power to escalate the situation. Putin is a card carrying demon from the 7th level of hell. Everything he and Russia does is pure evil. It is clear to me now. The end times are nigh!

 

You, BruceVC, Tagaziel, et al have shown me the light!

 

I am not at fault that you ignore or ignorant of Russian interests, threats and recent actions in the region, and Ukraine in particular. Your argument is what many argued before Russia intervention and subsequent annexation of Crimea. While I doubted that Russia will try to annex Easten Ukraine at this point(although I doubt they will go as far in Crimea) their economic and geopolitical interest in submissive satellite state Ukraine(like Belarus) hasn't changed and the best leverage they have is the upcoming election and Russian speaking populace --which consume the Putin daily media enjoying a pre election healthy doze of propaganda on a non stop loop.

 

Of course that short term instability in Eastern Ukraine works for Russia, just like their yet again timed economic pressure, because what wins election in such situation is the promise of personal and economical security; and while personally, I haven't heard any of the nazi crap (I suppose Putin figured out that the comparison into which his actions fits like a glove is counter productive) everything else is tuned onto the same message from before built on blown out of proportion and even manufactured events (the illegitimate, radical government; up to get the Russian speakers; Can't maintain law and order; economical issues etc)

 

 

@Hassat Hunter, funny when initially saw your post I was certain that the only answer discussion you want to hear is someone saying they support the one and not the other so you can scream bias.. nevertheless I made a normal post

  because I didn't recall any posting history among us to put you into the oby group.

They [government] skipped the talks, and went straight to dismissing them all as terrorists and russian instigators, and responded with threats and military action.

What exactly you are suggesting that the authorities should have done, when there is already an election on their way which would give voice to the populace at large? What are the goals of those pro-russian protesters? Because so far left unchecked took over government and police buildings, so how in anyway they are different from the Hooligans who were drawn to the violence that ensued when the government to break the Euromaiden protest and against who the oby group has been ranting from the start?

 

For a government that came to power with protest, that strikes me as very odd. You would think the protesters themselves would be sympathetic to other people doing the same as them. But apparently the instant they took power all protest is disbanded and fired upon.

The current interm-government came after Ukraine house of representatives from across the political map realized that the situation got out of control, providing a democratic means to address the issues at hand. Also protests imply peaceful protest, just like the months of Euromaiden movement which was rooted in the orange revolution protesting policy and corruption. While here it seems that taking by force is the only and armed gun men is the only creed of the protesters.

 

And the current government is acting swell, doesn't it?

Yet, it's very troubling to me the current government goes quite beyond that with such ease, and the entire world is silent.

Please explain... i'd like to hear details on those assertions..

 

Euromaiden was given months, they get power, they violently put down all resistance and protest within a week or 2?

Sounds to me the cure ended up worse than the disease, as much as you can hide between 'it's all Russians' you want.

After all I can easily say the same, Euromaiden was caused by Pro-EU agitators... and I would be right to boot.

I don't know how you could, in fact on two occasions i'd said it would be silly of you todo so. Thus can you please elaborate on your position in detail (not headlines jumping)

 

Russia is worried about the situation, tries to appoint that in the UN, and the Western World just hones it away.

That exactly why I have been calling Russia the Opportunistic agitator bully in regard to Ukraine\Crimea(or Georgia), they didn't tried to defuse the situation there, they didn't tried to help anyone but themselves to some Ukrainian real estate. If you think that by now anyone buys Russia horse load of sh** being anything but self interest you are delusional. Edited April 16, 2014 by Mor

[Tagaziel]

I like how Russia is portrayed as the good guy, a stable, prosperous nation led by a wise, modest, and truly global-thinking visionary, who is just concerned about Ukraine and tries its best to stabilize the situation there. Meanwhile, Europe and the U.S. are big bad bullies.

 

Oh, poor, poor Russia. You have gone through so much harassment throughout the 20th century. Like when those big bad Poles forced you to invade, then had themselves arrested by NKVD and shot, just to make you look bad.

[Malcador]

Who's portraying that ?  Just powers doing what powers do.   It's just fun sometimes to snigger at US/EU moralizing sometimes.

Edited April 16, 2014 by Malcador

[Hassat Hunter]

MOR, atleast do it proper dammit;

 

 

*goes off actually reading the posts on this page*

[Hassat Hunter]

So, the Ukrain military defects at a surprising speed, several soldier stating 'they don't want to shoot at their fellow Ukrainians"

Which would be odd if all the protesters where just evil Russians, wouldn't it be?

 

Also, I wouldn't exactly call good and bad here. Just evil and lesser evil. I don't exactly share the belief the EU are 'the saviors of Ukraine' rather than they just made the ****storm bigger, and are just too dumb to realise that.

 

@ Mor; Nah, I just wanted an honest answer why the world shuts up about tanks and heli's being used while it was disgraced by police performances in Kiev. Maybe they should just let them go, right... after all, that worked so great in London, nothing got burned down, looted or stuff there?

 

What I expect? Try to initiate a talk? Instead of going full rambo? After all, they are the protesters so appaled by the violence used against them in Kiev. It's just surprises me it takes them so quick to forget and dish out such retribution. Completely forgetting it seems why they wanted the leading president in Kiev gone in the first place.

[Tagaziel]

The Russian commandos would shoot Ukrainian forces on sight. Makes conversation a bit tricky.

[Walsingham]

Who's portraying that ?  Just powers doing what powers do.   It's just fun sometimes to snigger at US/EU moralizing sometimes.

 

If you really think there's no distinction between the morality of Putin's Russia and how the EU functions then ...well that's quite interesting.

[Malcador]

Soon, Kane will reveal himself as Putin's adviser.

 

Peace through power!

[Malcador]

 

Who's portraying that ?  Just powers doing what powers do.   It's just fun sometimes to snigger at US/EU moralizing sometimes.

 

If you really think there's no distinction between the morality of Putin's Russia and how the EU functions then ...well that's quite interesting.

 

 

Well there is, but I didn't actually make that comparison in my post.   Not really much more the states than can do than nag anyway, really, so I guess it is unfair to snicker.  The EU going to war, heh.  And the US really wants to fight over Ukraine.   Posters here though, well, that's snigger worthy.

[Drowsy Emperor]

There is no large Russian military presence in East Ukraine, head of EU intelligence, Commodore Georgij Alafuzoff, has said. The spy chief has dismissed multiple accusations from the West alleging Russian involvement in the unrest in the region.

In an interview with Finnish national news broadcaster, Yle, Alafuzoff said the Russian military had nothing to do with the seizing of government buildings in eastern Ukraine.

“In my opinion, it’s mostly people who live in the region who are not satisfied with the current state of affairs,” said Alafuzoff, referring to the situation in East Ukraine. He went on to say that the people are worried for the welfare of those who speak Russian as their first language in the region.

 

 

So much for your Spetznaz everywhere theories. That's the only thing that's good about the EU, that it still hasn't homogenized to the point that everyone spouts the same rubbish.

Edited April 16, 2014 by Drowsy Emperor

[Elerond]

 

There is no large Russian military presence in East Ukraine, head of EU intelligence, Commodore Georgij Alafuzoff, has said. The spy chief has dismissed multiple accusations from the West alleging Russian involvement in the unrest in the region.

In an interview with Finnish national news broadcaster, Yle, Alafuzoff said the Russian military had nothing to do with the seizing of government buildings in eastern Ukraine.

“In my opinion, it’s mostly people who live in the region who are not satisfied with the current state of affairs,” said Alafuzoff, referring to the situation in East Ukraine. He went on to say that the people are worried for the welfare of those who speak Russian as their first language in the region.

 

 

So much for your Spetznaz everywhere theories. That's the only thing that's good about the EU, that it still hasn't homogenized to the point that everyone spouts the same rubbish.

 

 

Except that was not what he said, he said that he believes that there is Russian spies infiltrated in separatist, but there is no evidence of actual Russian combat troops, and he don't believe that it's current Russia's interest to attack in East-Ukraine as it would be long time burden from them that would be difficult to get rid off.

 

He also states that West and Russia have different perspectives on things behind Ukraine's and Crimea's crisis that come from history, economy, common national background and not at least experiences from second world war.

 

Here is the article from Yle in Finnish.

http://yle.fi/uutiset/eun_tiedustelupaallikko_venajan_etu_ei_ole_edeta_ukrainaan/7194750

[Drowsy Emperor]

Some people here were saying that the armed men in the eastern regions are Russian troops.

[213374U]

I like how Russia is portrayed as the good guy, a stable, prosperous nation led by a wise, modest, and truly global-thinking visionary, who is just concerned about Ukraine and tries its best to stabilize the situation there. Meanwhile, Europe and the U.S. are big bad bullies.

 

Oh, poor, poor Russia. You have gone through so much harassment throughout the 20th century. Like when those big bad Poles forced you to invade, then had themselves arrested by NKVD and shot, just to make you look bad.

 

Huh? I don't know what you've been reading but definitely not these boards. Maybe try posting your butthurt on RT.ru for effect?

 

 

the EU functions

 

DOES NOT COMPUTE

[Zoraptor]

The Russian commandos would shoot Ukrainian forces on sight. Makes conversation a bit tricky.

Yep, just like in Crimea where they shot on sight. Sheesh, there was discussion here not just about how many simply Ukrainians defected without a shot fired, but how a lot of the armed men in Crimea didn't even have magazines deployed in their rifles. Contorting that into shoot on sight is... a bit of a stretch.

 

 

I like how Russia is portrayed as the good guy, a stable, prosperous nation led by a wise, modest, and truly global-thinking visionary

 

I'd ask for you to show anyone who has said that, but it'd be pointless since we both know no one has said that and you're putting everyone who disagrees with you on ignore anyway.

 

the instigators of the protests are armed with Russian military-grade weapons, gear, and don't hesitate to open fire.

 

That'd be Ukrainian military grade weapons, gear, (ffs, someone even pointed out some were using Ukrainian manufactured AR-15 variants, though no doubt that's just a Cunning Plan) and they quite obviously have hesitated to fire given that there isn't a single confirmed death yet. Still, top notch imagination on show, truly Poland has a successor to Andrei Sapkowski in the making.

 

Most of all, and not directed at the loony Russaphobic they-beat-me-up-and-stole-my-lunch-money-it's-a-fact fringe of the forum, I think people really need to have a look at themselves and at how much they've bought in to the propaganda.

 

The facts- facts- are that Yanukovich was elected, primarily by the east, in a fair election and set aside, primarily by the west. The east is more prosperous but has been disenfranchised, the Maidan forces immediately tried some pretty moronic triumphalist crap like reverting the language law that could not have been better designed to annoy the east etc etc. It's absolutely obvious that some in the east will asterisking hate that- obvious, a significant proportion of any people would feel the same under the same circumstances and denying that dehumanises them and says that they cannot have valid complaints that run counter to your personal beliefs. And clearly, even shown on unfriendly state media like the BBC, you do have ordinary people going and standing in front of Ukrainian tanks. Yet, I suspect some will immediately believe that they must be brainwashed in not welcoming their new western overlords' armed forces with open arms.

 

Yet, the same people who insist that the Maidan was some sort of completely spontaneous (disproven of course) and utterly peaceful home grown grass roots movement (during which a bunch of policeman committed suicide by molotov roostertail and gunfire to slander the protesters, yep, they're just that evil, so evil they too used tanks, planes etc they just painted them with invisible paint) and any other interpretation is tin foil hat conspiracy automatically accept the exact reverse here- it's a planned foreign influenced entirely armed and violent tiny minority who haven't killed anyone yet because they, uh, haven't had the chance to? Oh, and there aren't any defections, the people stopping the peaceful Ukrainian tanks/ flower dispensers and being buzzed by jet defenders and defence helicopters are clearly spetsnaz now that the recruitment has been relaxed to include old women, children, 60 year old men and any armed men must be russians not any of the Ukrainian defectors or- in a fantastic parallel with the stupidity of Bremer et al in Iraq- the Berkut they disbanded.

 

(I particularly liked the Ukrainian 'proof' of Russian involvement that included an ID card with, I kid you not, Occupation: Spy printed on it)

[Valsuelm]

Teenwolf has gotten involved! And he's pro Russian!

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/ukrainian-troop-defections-escalate-tensions-in-eastern-ukraine/2014/04/16/4d36b1b6-c532-11e3-b574-f8748871856a_story.html

 

Alas Teenwolf. I thought you were one of the good guys. But you cannot be since BruceVC, Mor, Walsingham, Tagaziel, et all convinced me that Russia is evil incarnate on earth.
 

Putin: Listen son. You're going to be able to do a lot of things the other guys aren't.

Teenwolf: Oh yeah, like chase cars, and bite the mailman?

Putin: No, better than that. Topple governments, piss on Obama, and have your way with Ukrainian women.

Teenwolf: Aaaaaoooooooowwwwoooooooooooooooooooo!

 

Edited April 16, 2014 by Valsuelm

[obyknven]

Even leaders of EU nations blame Ukraine now.

http://www.radio.cz/en/section/news/ukraine-needs-strong-leader-not-gangster-even-with-angelic-smile-and-braids-says-czech-president

 

The Czech president, Miloš Zeman, says Ukraine needs a strong leader but not one of the gangsters who has ruled the country in recent years, even with an angelic smile and beautiful braids; this was evidently a reference to former PM and presidential candidate Yulia Timoshenko. Speaking on a visit to the University of Hradec Králové on Tuesday, Mr. Zeman also said it was not possible to provide financial aid to Ukraine as it would end up in the pockets of oligarchs. In response to a question from a student, he said any armed person entering a government building was a criminal, whether at Kiev’s Majdan or in Donetsk.

 

I like how Russia is portrayed as the good guy, a stable, prosperous nation led by a wise, modest, and truly global-thinking visionary, who is just concerned about Ukraine and tries its best to stabilize the situation there. Meanwhile, Europe and the U.S. are big bad bullies.

Lie. Our Evil empire devour your small Poland after Ukraine. Another variant - we just nuked Poland because of US missiles here.

West trapped yourself by russophobic propaganda. Russian is bad anyway, it's not important how we acting and how really bad or good we are. West remove all limitations from us by constant blaming. We can be REALLY bad.

Anyway West don't have rights to criticise Russia. During perestroika Russia give to West unique possibility for peaceful coexistence. West reject this. They invade countries and make wars, they try conquer entire world. They show own true face. Ok,  then  we restore status quo and return all our lands back.  Probably this ruined Western dreams and causing butthurt for traitors, but we really don't worry about this.

[Wrath of Dagon]

I don't think the Kiev protesters and the separatists are at all comparable. One was fighting against domination by a foreign power, the other is fighting to separate from their internationally recognized state. Mind you, I don't necessarily assume that wanting to secede is illegitimate, it's just that assistance for such movements by foreign powers is both unethical and illegal.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Huh? I don't know what you've been reading but definitely not these boards. Maybe try posting your butthurt on RT.ru for effect?

 

 

 

 

I am interested why you feel the need for personal attacks against people who disagree with your point. I have raised this with you before around the unnecessary vitriolic nature of some of your comments. In all the time I have read comments from Tagaziel I don't think he has once made it personal. " Attack the argument, not the person"

 

I know its partly  a defensive mechanism and is caused by your own insecurities but you are a highly intelligent person and you don't need to debate on this devolved level. I would honestly think its below you.

 

Anyway I do enjoy your posts and comments, even though I disagree with lots of what you say, so please try to take what I'm saying constructively

[Malcador]

He's just being open rather than being a wuss and backhandedly doing so like you are.

[BruceVC]

He's just being open rather than being a wuss and backhandedly doing so like you are.

 

 

Really Malc? So I make personal attacks against people but I do it obliquely?

 

You seem to be confusing the fact that I vehemently disagree with people around a personal attack. They are not the same thing, oh and joking with someone also isn't a personal attack

[Valsuelm]

Personal attack?

 

What was said:

 

 

I like how Russia is portrayed as the good guy, a stable, prosperous nation led by a wise, modest, and truly global-thinking visionary, who is just concerned about Ukraine and tries its best to stabilize the situation there. Meanwhile, Europe and the U.S. are big bad bullies.

Oh, poor, poor Russia. You have gone through so much harassment throughout the 20th century. Like when those big bad Poles forced you to invade, then had themselves arrested by NKVD and shot, just to make you look bad.

 

Huh? I don't know what you've been reading but definitely not these boards. Maybe try posting your butthurt on RT.ru for effect?

 

 

the EU functions

 

DOES NOT COMPUTE

 

 

I see no personal attack.

[BruceVC]

Personal attack?

 

What was said:

 

 

I like how Russia is portrayed as the good guy, a stable, prosperous nation led by a wise, modest, and truly global-thinking visionary, who is just concerned about Ukraine and tries its best to stabilize the situation there. Meanwhile, Europe and the U.S. are big bad bullies.

 

Oh, poor, poor Russia. You have gone through so much harassment throughout the 20th century. Like when those big bad Poles forced you to invade, then had themselves arrested by NKVD and shot, just to make you look bad.

 

Huh? I don't know what you've been reading but definitely not these boards. Maybe try posting your butthurt on RT.ru for effect?

 

 

the EU functions

 

DOES NOT COMPUTE

 

 

I see no personal attack.

What is relevance of saying " someone is butthurt" when you disagree with what they are saying?

 

This is a personal attack, I can give other examples around other posts but its not necessary

[Valsuelm]

 

Personal attack?

 

What was said:

 

 

I like how Russia is portrayed as the good guy, a stable, prosperous nation led by a wise, modest, and truly global-thinking visionary, who is just concerned about Ukraine and tries its best to stabilize the situation there. Meanwhile, Europe and the U.S. are big bad bullies.

 

Oh, poor, poor Russia. You have gone through so much harassment throughout the 20th century. Like when those big bad Poles forced you to invade, then had themselves arrested by NKVD and shot, just to make you look bad.

 

Huh? I don't know what you've been reading but definitely not these boards. Maybe try posting your butthurt on RT.ru for effect?

 

 

the EU functions

 

DOES NOT COMPUTE

 

 

I see no personal attack.

What is relevance of saying " someone is butthurt" when you disagree with what they are saying?

 

This is a personal attack, I can give other examples around other posts but its not necessary

 

 

There's nothing necessarily personal about saying someone is 'butthurt'. Stop being butthurt because someone called someone you agree with all the time 'butthurt'.

 

In case there's anything lost in translation: 'butthurt' is synonymous with 'whining'. While I'm sure there's some unusual situation where it might be considered a personal attack, the vast majority of the time when someone tells someone to 'stop whining', it's not a personal attack. I've been told to 'stop whining' a few times in my life and even been called 'butthurt' by some internetdweebs on forums elsewhere, I never considered it a personal attack.

 

Here's an example of a personal attack: "Your momma is a @)#*$#@". (I don't mean your momma personally BruceVC ... this is just a generic example ).

 

Or even worse: 'You're bossy!!'

 

While Tagaziel seems to have been somewhat sarcastic in his remarks, he was indeed whining, albeit sarcastically (I think... maybe....). Given he's like a broken record in most of what he says (he stated nothing in his post he hasn't before, numerous times), and continues to make the erroneous charge that there are numerous 'pro-russia' folks here who insist Russia is the 'good guy', the 'butthurt' comment was apt.

Edited April 17, 2014 by Valsuelm