Obsidian partners with a publisher for PoE

[Valsuelm]

 I can't think of a better company fit than Paradox. 

 

I can.

 

I would have liked to have seen Obsidian partner with CD Projekt RED as a publisher myself. That's the only game publisher/developer in the world I have faith in aside from Obsidian at this point. And they head up GoG.com which would have been perfect I would think given so many want a gog version of PE available and one is promised. I'm actually curious as to why they didn't go with CD Projekt RED, as I imagine they must have been considered and there is communication between the companies anyways due to Obsidian having products on GoG and planning to have more.

 

Two years ago I would have been happy Paradox was the publisher as well, but over the last two years (especially this last one) they've near completely lost me as a fan for reasons stated by some in this thread and others. That said, perhaps they can redeem themselves to me. I'm hopeful but doubtful. And Paradox saying they are anti-DRM at this point holds as much water as your average politician promising you X, because they do use DRM these days. They talk the talk but don't walk the walk, they used to yes, but no longer. Requiring that third party software be installed on your computer to activate/install, patch, and use some features of your software is DRM, anyone thinking otherwise fundamentally doesn't understand what DRM is.

[Karkarov]

 

 I can't think of a better company fit than Paradox. 

 

I can.

 

I would have liked to have seen Obsidian partner with CD Projekt RED as a publisher myself. That's the only game publisher/developer in the world I have faith in aside from Obsidian at this point. And they head up GoG.com which would have been perfect I would think given so many want a gog version of PE available and one is promised. I'm actually curious as to why they didn't go with CD Projekt RED, as I imagine they must have been considered and there is communication between the companies anyways due to Obsidian having products on GoG and planning to have more.

CD Projekt RED isn't a publisher they are a games developer, as in the same thing as Obsidian.  If Paradox uses DRM everyone is using DRM, including CD Projekt.  It is called Steam.  Also Obsidian has said since practically day one there will be a GoG version of the game, so no, there will be a DRM free version of Eternity for those who want it regardless of who publishes.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Karkarov

[Amentep]

Now you run out of money because you didn't finish on time (PoE was delayed from original date - fact).

If you're talking about the original date on the Kickstarter, Obsidian has said repeatedly that the date on the kickstarter was a guess based on what they thought they'd originally be doing. By adding all the stretch goals they knew - and communicated here - that they'd not meet that date.

 

I don't know where you're getting that they've ran out of money, that's never been discussed in anything I've read.

[Sarex]

Imagine if they teamed up with EA(Bioware). The butthurt alone would have been worth it.

[Elerond]

Also Elerond your examples all ride on the IP holder suing you for violating DRM.  In this case it was the IP holder themselves telling you how to violate the DRM so the odds of them suing you for doing it are minimal, and even if they did they would pretty much lose the case.

 

As I said game IPs time to time changes ownership over time, and problem was in company's ability to sue, not in that they will win in court, as ability to sue opens possibility to molest law and court system to extort people to pay them small compensation instead going in court that with high probability cost more for person even if s/he wins.

 

And I also said that I think probability is very low that any publisher or game IP holder start using such method. And that deal with Paradox is excellent news. But point in my post was that games in Steam are never wholly DRM-free, why in my opinion one should not advertise them as so, even if difference is very small. And people should support stores that actually offer DRM-free products and ask publishers put their games in those stores if it's technically possible. 

[Bryy]

 

 I can't think of a better company fit than Paradox. 

 

I can.

 

I would have liked to have seen Obsidian partner with CD Projekt RED as a publisher myself. That's the only game publisher/developer in the world I have faith in aside from Obsidian at this point. And they head up GoG.com which would have been perfect I would think given so many want a gog version of PE available and one is promised. I'm actually curious as to why they didn't go with CD Projekt RED, as I imagine they must have been considered and there is communication between the companies anyways due to Obsidian having products on GoG and planning to have more.

 

Two years ago I would have been happy Paradox was the publisher as well, but over the last two years (especially this last one) they've near completely lost me as a fan for reasons stated by some in this thread and others. That said, perhaps they can redeem themselves to me. I'm hopeful but doubtful. And Paradox saying they are anti-DRM at this point holds as much water as your average politician promising you X, because they do use DRM these days. They talk the talk but don't walk the walk, they used to yes, but no longer. Requiring that third party software be installed on your computer to activate/install, patch, and use some features of your software is DRM, anyone thinking otherwise fundamentally doesn't understand what DRM is.

 

I can think of two reasons:

 

1) I highly doubt CDP wants to work on anyone else's games at this point.

2) They're in Poland. 

 

Just because CDP makes good games as well does not mean they are automatically a perfect fit.

[Valsuelm]

 

I can think of two reasons:

 

1) I highly doubt CDP wants to work on anyone else's games at this point.

2) They're in Poland. 

 

Just because CDP makes good games as well does not mean they are automatically a perfect fit.

 

 

Paradox is in Sweden. Sweden is somehow better than Poland?

 

You may have a point on CDP not wanting to work on other folks games though as they have yet to do that from what I've seen and may just not want to take their company in that direction. As I said, I'm curious why it didn't happen as it must have come up. Obviously there was some reason(s).

[Bryy]

It's not in the US, and giving the marketing duties to a company outside of the US would be altering the details of the Kickstarter. 

[Valsuelm]

It's not in the US, and giving the marketing duties to a company outside of the US would be altering the details of the Kickstarter.

 

Uh... as I previously stated, Paradox is in Sweden, which is not in the US. I'm not sure if you thought it was, but it isn't. So Obsidian has given marketing duties to a company outside of the U.S.. But what does the company location have to do with altering the details of the kickstarter?

Edited March 24, 2014 by Valsuelm

[Valsuelm]

 

 

 I can't think of a better company fit than Paradox. 

 

I can.

 

I would have liked to have seen Obsidian partner with CD Projekt RED as a publisher myself. That's the only game publisher/developer in the world I have faith in aside from Obsidian at this point. And they head up GoG.com which would have been perfect I would think given so many want a gog version of PE available and one is promised. I'm actually curious as to why they didn't go with CD Projekt RED, as I imagine they must have been considered and there is communication between the companies anyways due to Obsidian having products on GoG and planning to have more.

CD Projekt RED isn't a publisher they are a games developer, as in the same thing as Obsidian.  If Paradox uses DRM everyone is using DRM, including CD Projekt.  It is called Steam.  Also Obsidian has said since practically day one there will be a GoG version of the game, so no, there will be a DRM free version of Eternity for those who want it regardless of who publishes.

 

 

CD Projeckt is indeed a publisher, but so far of their own games only. I never said there wouldn't be a DRM free version of PoE on GoG (in fact I stated there would be), so why you're arguing as if I did, I do not know.

[Bryy]

 

It's not in the US, and giving the marketing duties to a company outside of the US would be altering the details of the Kickstarter.

 

Uh... as I previously stated, Paradox is in Sweden, which is not in the US. I'm not sure if you thought it was, but it isn't. So Obsidian has given marketing duties to a company outside of the U.S.. But what does the company location have to do with altering the details of the kickstarter?

 

Ah, sorry, I read that wrong. I was sure there was a Paradox Austin.

[Lephys]

That's just how the industry works, Lephys.

First of all, that's not "just how the industry works." That's how the industry tends to work. I have confidence in Obsidian's ability to know what the hell was in their contract and what wasn't, before just signing it and assuming. Those are the two possibilities. I think they make sure their promises are kept.

 

They're VOLUNTARILY partnering with Paradox (unless you think they're lying), strictly because they believe paying Paradox (in whatever fashion they've deemed fit) to handle the publishing side of things is a much more efficient use of their time and resources than handling it themselves. And, again you keep referencing how "some of us" (ooooh, I wonder if I'm supposed to be in that group... So uncertain...) seem to believe Obsidian's mere existence makes everything peachy. No, I believe their voluntary efforts and cognitive functioning will probably (not "definitely") handle any major problems, such as (purely for example, and since you're so focused on it) "Hey, we wanted to make sure DRM-free versions went out just fine, but now, it seems we've been screwed over by our contract! What the hell?!"

 

Maybe some other people believe they actually ride unicorns and fart rainbows? I have no idea. Take that up with other people. Stop diverting that uncertainty towards me. Just because I don't assume the worst doesn't mean I assume the best. I just don't assume.

 

Secondly, I believe we have a disconnect here, as all the stuff I was saying before that "show me evidence" response to you was in direct response to Sharp_One's paranoia, which involved "They're really out of money and were forced to 'partner' with this publisher," etc. So, when you responded to my words regarding that with "Maybe some of us just don't adopt your sunshine and bunnies perspective," I figured, with the context I had, that you were defending Sharp_One's point.

 

For what it's worth, your curiosity about the details of the agreement regarding DRM and digital distribution, etc., is quite valid. I have no qualms about that. So, unless you share Sharp_One's exact views, and really think Obsidian are lying to us to cover up what's somehow obviously really a worst-case scenario, the only dispute I really have with you, it seems, is that you seem to think I worship Obsidian.

 

I apologize for the disconnect.

[Karkarov]

Ah, sorry, I read that wrong. I was sure there was a Paradox Austin.

Apparently they are exclusively in Stockholm.  That said they have already released a ton of games in the US either way so it isn't like they are some small time party or unknown.  As far as CD Projekt goes.... sure in the strictest sense of the word they are a Publisher.  With the caveat that they only publish their own games.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Karkarov

[Hassat Hunter]

Ehm, they publish games, plenty of games, of others in Poland...

I'm not sure where you guys get the 'only their own games from'

 

And, of course, they are the owners of GOG.

[Bryy]

You see, my excuse is I'm a dirty American.

[Sannom]

I'm actually curious as to why they didn't go with CD Projekt RED, as I imagine they must have been considered and there is communication between the companies anyways due to Obsidian having products on GoG and planning to have more.

CD Projeckt RED is a development studio, not a publisher. As for CD Projeckt, they only distribute in Eastern Europe.

 

 

Ah, sorry, I read that wrong. I was sure there was a Paradox Austin.

You're thinking of Arkane Studios, I believe.

[nipsen]

For what it's worth, your curiosity about the details of the agreement regarding DRM and digital distribution, etc., is quite valid. I have no qualms about that. So, unless you share Sharp_One's exact views, and really think Obsidian are lying to us to cover up what's somehow obviously really a worst-case scenario, the only dispute I really have with you, it seems, is that you seem to think I worship Obsidian.

I was exaggerating a little bit. But with the way you and a couple others argued, you were writing off the probability of any problem because Obsidian people are awesome. That was the entire line of reasoning, and apparently still is.

 

It's not how it works - like I talked a bit about in the other post, I've been talking to two different producers on large productions - who were close to the developer team, who didn't do off-site work. They argued and convinced the development team, together with lead designers and so on, to make changes to the game that they genuinely believed were needed for the games to sell. They based this off feedback from various different places - experts, reviews, userfeedback, etc. Design people and mechanical programmers signed off on the solutions. Those changes were solely the reason why the games tanked and were practically empty of players a few weeks after release. Which was very sad when the earlier betas actually worked. In one of the cases the producer was genuinely shocked that anyone had any kind of reasoning or explanation for why the changes were extremely bad ideas in the first place. After the disaster, they still kept looking for other causes to why the games didn't become huge sellers - such as marketing, presentation, packaging, etc. Blaming everyone from individual project members to the publisher and overall project design.

 

And these were "the good guys", who were "on our side" - and genuinely committed to making the game as good as possible for the users. They still made extremely bad choices when having to translate "what I want as a gamer" between the very different contexts they were put in as project managers and salesmen on one hand, and designers and programmers on the other.

 

Other than that - the idea that someone is wrong because "but I believe otherwise" - not a great argument either. Frankly, rude to write people off like that. If you disagree, no worries. But people are not necessarily paranoid, or setting up a huge conspiracy, because the scenario seems unlikely to you.

 

So yes, I agree with sharp_one that the PoE project as a drm-free, crowd-funded gem that ended in an economically viable release, proving that independent developer-owned and planned release cycles are more than just possible, but also something to emulate by other developers - is probably over. Towards us as backers, there's no pressure other than to eventually deliver the goods in terms of a good game with loads of content. For designers and leads, the pressure would also be the deadline where the project runs out of money on a full house development effort. But other than that.. what pressure is there?

 

And I'm sure that most of the people who back the game would have some sort of feeling about extended development time that flips between disappointment, and contentment that the project is not rushed. With a release looming, and a package waiting to be sold in good timing with the release - there'll be different types of pressure involved. 

 

Of course the game will still be made. I'm just not convinced by the few details we've been given that Paradox is just contracting the distribution of the physical release, rather than becoming a part of the pitch and sell of the project, along with the development of extra campaigns and content and so on. Because of the other obvious questions partnering with a publisher brings along with it. That Obsidian haven't actually gone into any detail about. And I think that is curious.

[Lephys]

I was exaggerating a little bit. But with the way you and a couple others argued, you were writing off the probability of any problem because Obsidian people are awesome. That was the entire line of reasoning, and apparently still is.

Then you're completely ignoring the several clarifications I've made as to the contrary, or you think I'm just lying when I say that's not the "entire line of reasoning."

 

I understand that "the good guys" in the past have ended up doing stupid stuff. I'm well aware that it's possible for people with good intentions to still screw stuff up. You seem to be ignoring the distinction between possibility and probability, which I've also clarified multiple times at this point. I have not, nor will I, say that it's somehow paranoid or dumb to think that a "good guy," quality development team could possibly do something "bad" with their project, inadvertently or otherwise. However, Team Eternity has given us very specific statements of intent regarding this project, on several occasions. Not just "Yeah, don't worry, we'll only make pleasant choices!". But, things like, well, most pertinently: "Don't worry. This partnership with Paradox does not constitute ANY amount of creative control on their part."

 

That doesn't mean "Don't worry guys... they totally have the legal right to just tell us what to do with our game, but we won't listen to them! I guarantee it!". It means "they're not even privy to our design/development decisions and schematics."

 

So, yes, unless you believe them to be lying, I can't see how you can think it's probable that Paradox is somehow going to just jump in and change the game, or really influence the creative design of the game in any shape or fashion.

 

Other than that - the idea that someone is wrong because "but I believe otherwise" - not a great argument either. Frankly, rude to write people off like that. If you disagree, no worries. But people are not necessarily paranoid, or setting up a huge conspiracy, because the scenario seems unlikely to you.

It's also rude to insist that people are writing you off after they've spent about 1,000 words explicitly pointing out the falsehood of that assumption. I'm simply pointing out the facts. I believe what I believe because of the facts. This isn't about my belief being pitted against yours. This is about yours being exaggerated because of the human nature of worry/doubt regarding the unknown.

 

If you went to a casino, and played roulette, and told me "I'm probably going to hit 00 on my first go," I would tell you the same thing. "No, it is a fact that you probably aren't. You could, though. Would you then say I'm writing off your belief? No. I'm simply pointing out that your belief isn't based on a very solid foundation, and pointing out a more solid foundation. You can still go on believing whatever you want. I'm not judging your belief. I'm simply observing the fact that it isn't really accurately supported by the facts.

 

Of course the game will still be made. I'm just not convinced by the few details we've been given that Paradox is just contracting the distribution of the physical release, rather than becoming a part of the pitch and sell of the project, along with the development of extra campaigns and content and so on. Because of the other obvious questions partnering with a publisher brings along with it. That Obsidian haven't actually gone into any detail about. And I think that is curious.

Unless Paradox is fulfilling the precedented publisher role of funding the game's development, there is absolutely no reason, whatsoever, for them to have or desire any say-so in the game's design and creation. Again, I get being curious about the unrevealed details of the partnership, but I hardly think "No, Obsidian is solely in charge of this project's development, and that hasn't changed with this partnership with Paradox" somehow leaves us in the dark as to those particular details. It's not like we're just having to guess about all the important stuff here.

 

So, again, either you believe them, or you don't. Obviously they could be lying. But, that doesn't change that fact that you either believe them or you don't. You can't do neither. You can stay a decision, but you can't make a decision that is neither trust nor distrust.

 

No one's telling you to ignore worrisome possibilities, but there's absolutely no reason whatsoever to arbitrarily sew seeds of malcontent and distrust just because other humans, in the past, have screwed up development projects, completely unrelated to this particular team or this particular partnership.

 

Even if they WERE lying to us and/or screwing up the project, worrying about it and assuming it's so, without any evidence at all, isn't doing anybody any good. So, unless you can actually do something about it, I don't see the point in worrying, either way. We're all just going to have to wait and see, in the end.

[nipsen]

Yes.. agree with that.

 

I just have a very bad feeling about the entire "Q&A team from Paradox" setup. And I don't see why Obsidian won't come out and say something specific about - for example - difficulty, approach to complex gameplay, approach to complex quests, approach to intricate multi-branched writing, interactive fiction..

 

I'm watching Sawyer's really good videos, though. And I'm not crying if the game isn't as difficult as IWD2. But I'm worried that gameplay rules that go beyond WoW and Diablo style hacking won't get the attention it should. That if they have something really clever in there with area effect spells that work in synergy with area/reach for stances for fighters, and so on. That wouldn't necessarily be discovered or used by players in the.. *cough*.. focus groups. Then this might convincingly translate into "let's release early instead of waiting for something we're uncertain will be fantastic".

 

Just missing some attention to that part from Obsidian. Specially when they're talking about dlc and disc-releases now, before the game has a release date. ..you see what I'm worrying about here, yes? "Why should we both lose a whooping amount of dollars, waiting for a feature that 'practically no one*' wants anyway?".

 

*according to numbers read out of a tophat.

[PrimeJunta]

I just have a very bad feeling about the entire "Q&A team from Paradox" setup. And I don't see why Obsidian won't come out and say something specific about - for example - difficulty, approach to complex gameplay, approach to complex quests, approach to intricate multi-branched writing, interactive fiction..

 

It's far too late for Paradox to affect any of that other than difficulty. Those are design decisions, and will have been made months ago. Changing them now would be extremely messy (read: expensive). I'm quite sure both Paradox and Obsidian are fully aware of that.

Edited March 26, 2014 by PrimeJunta