Ukraine Redux

[Oerwinde]

 

Yep, which makes it even less notable but it still made the news.

Why wouldn't it? It is local news for Canada, I bet similar snipsets poped up across the globe, though I didn't see anything of the sort (including this) in the global political sections.

 

--

 

Meanwhile, even though Russia claim that all those Pro-Russian forces wearing Russia's uniforms\equipment and driving their vehicles, who took hold of strategic position(including around Ukrainian military bases) with military precision are just local defense forces with no affiliation to them. But I wonder how they will explain blockading the Ukrainian port in Sevastopol, prevented Ukrainian navy from leaving?

 

I wonder if they will claim that this too is part of their base lease program with Urkaine, or not an intervention, or just more local defense force sailing Russian ships

Well, after the head of the Ukrainean navy defected to the Crimean government and turned it over to them, they're probably just helping Crimea by trying to prevent defection of their navy to Ukraine

[Mor]

In other news, the ECB recipe for austerity (read: economic slavery) is proceeding at full speed in Ukraine, political crisis or no.

 

At this rate, the whole of Ukraine will be begging to join Russia by year's end. smh

We know that Ukraine is facing default, although it has been in bad shape since the rescission that hit all of Europe(and Russia). Although that economic crisis was aggravated by Russia trying to bully Ukraine into adopting pro-russian policies and away from EU. (like Belarus, they want Ukraine to become a submissive satellite state).

 

For example Russian manipulation of gas prices and blocking Ukrainian trade in to Russia (which was its biggest export sector). The situation wasn't helped by Ukraine soviet style corruption(the former president is accused at embezzling billions). Which is why EU put road blocks on Ukraine petition to join, asking for major reforms.

 

Although that article on RT and its rhetoric fits perfectly with what i previously referred too in the spoiler article.

[Mor]

Popped up on the world news feed on Reddit I was following, probably a bias to that.

 

This was an interesting read - http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26468720

Yeah it hard to keep with feeds, in some news they also spam tweets and comments, IMO its better wait day and read the articles(in full not only titles )

 

I already read that article, it is a good and pretty much reflects my position on the issue. Such conflicts tend to polarize the political map and Ukraine would have to fight uphill battle against extremist on both side for a long time, this is certainly something that would have to be addressed. However, in the context of the previous discussion, the topic was never about fixing Ukraine crisis or any positive speedy resolution within it. It was about pure propaganda arguments though demilitarization, picked from Russian reportage, intended to promote Russian self interest and their legitimacy, trampling Ukraine in the process.

Edited March 7, 2014 by Mor

[Gorgon]

Well Scotland isn't being pressured/influenced into independence by a third party. Elections in Crimea would never be approved by monitors due to the chaotic situation.

[Malcador]

Yeah it hard to keep with feeds, in some news they also spam tweets and comments, IMO its better wait day and read the articles(in full not only titles )

Nice backhand. Anyway, meant bias as in a lot of Canadians tend to use Reddit, so that'd increase the likelihood of it showing there. I guess there is something to be said for Canada speaking up so much as well, from them it'll be interpreted differently than if the US said something.

[kgambit]

 

 

 

That's probably easier for Canada than pretty much anyone else, given Canada's ginormous natural reserves of fossil fuels. I have no idea what % of the economy is owned by Russian capital, though.

 

 

Total Russian Canadian trade is around 2.5 bn$ with Canada running a trade surplus.  Compared to total Canadian trade, it's insignificant.  Russia does run a  $15bn trade surplus with the US so that is a bigger issue.

 

More concerning is the stagnation of the Russian economy.  Foreign investment accounts for roughly 22% of Russian GDP.  Putin's goal was to reach 25% by 2015 and that is unlikely to happen. 

 

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/eee13444-6350-11e3-a87d-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2vJ4BE0pB

 

 

 

 

Also, reminder that under the agreement that allows Russia to deploy troops in Crimea, the ceiling is set at 25,000 servicemen. Last reported figure on the ground was 16,000... 

 

 

The agreement restricts the Russian troop movement outside of their bases to "operations considered normal to maintaining the facilities or for training operations".

 

No matter how you want to parse the agreements, surrounding Ukrainian military bases is an overt offensive activity, regardless of whether shots are fired.  Therefore those units appear to be in violation of the terms of their basing agreements.

Edited March 7, 2014 by kgambit

[Malcador]

So, they've stormed an air force base and are demanding the Ukranians surrender, according to Twitter posts.

[kgambit]

So, they've stormed an air force base and are demanding the Ukranians surrender, according to Twitter posts.

 

Not sure if this is the same base or not but BBC is reporting a seizure what is believed to be Russian troops at the Ukrainian A2355 base near Sevastopol:  

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26492053

 

Pretty aggressive action for alleged self-defence forces. 

[obyknven]

So, they've stormed an air force base and are demanding the Ukranians surrender, according to Twitter posts.

By my sources 20 chavs vs 100 Ukrainian soldiers. Nothing serious. Typically at night selfdefence units make rotation, base some time stay without their defence. Local gopnics  use this time for attack of Ukrainian base.  Actually nor Crimean selfdefence nor Ukrainian soldiers don't like these morons. I think when selfdefence return they kick arses of these gopniks  from base.

[Malcador]

 

So, they've stormed an air force base and are demanding the Ukranians surrender, according to Twitter posts.

 

Not sure if this is the same base or not but BBC is reporting a seizure what is believed to be Russian troops at the Ukrainian A2355 base near Sevastopol:  

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26492053

 

Pretty aggressive action for alleged self-defence forces. 

 

 

Well, the best defence is a good offence. 

[Zoraptor]

For example Russian manipulation of gas prices and blocking Ukrainian trade in to Russia (which was its biggest export sector). The situation wasn't helped by Ukraine soviet style corruption(the former president is accused at embezzling billions). Which is why EU put road blocks on Ukraine petition to join, asking for major reforms.

Eh? While she's accused of embezzling billions (and has used parliamentary privilege and votes to block prosecution multiple times, like Silvio B) Yulia Tymoshenko isn't a former president, she only made it to Prime Minister. 

 

Lol, Yanukovich embezzled 37 billion. It's like some wide eyed 7 year old who is going to make a millionty billionty dollars when they grow up actually grew up to write propaganda. And, amazingly enough, even if true it would represent... about 5% of the corruption over the same time from the organisation they're so keen to join. And, of course, while accusations against poor, dear, not innocent because nobody says that, Yulia are politically motivated accusations against Yanukovich are Gospel Truth from God Himself, from Burning Bush to Graven Tablet and not politically motivated in the slightest.

Edited March 7, 2014 by Zoraptor

[obyknven]

 

So, they've stormed an air force base and are demanding the Ukranians surrender, according to Twitter posts.

By my sources 20 chavs vs 100 Ukrainian soldiers. Nothing serious. Typically at night selfdefence units make rotation, base some time stay without their defence. Local gopnics  use this time for attack of Ukrainian base.  Actually nor Crimean selfdefence nor Ukrainian soldiers don't like these morons. I think when selfdefence return they kick arses of these gopniks  from base.

 

Situation is normal now. These fanatics caused lots of problems in Crimea, nobody control they, police and military units avoid make harm to them (civilians).

[Sarex]

Well, the best defence is a good offence.

 

The good old American motto.

[Hurlshort]

Am I the only one that sees Weird Al Yankovich when someone talks about this Ukraine President?

[Fighter]

The real war:

 

[Hassat Hunter]

I'm still finding it odd that everyone is super-mad about Russia trying to influence countries... and no-one bats even their eyes with the many times the UN, America, EU etc. do so... in much worse ways than Russia now with Ukrain.

Maybe all American troops should get out of Mexico and just leave the drugtraffic go it's natural course, right?

Because really, that's about more offensive than what's going on here... why is the world offended?

[Mor]

[Mor]

Well, after the head of the Ukrainean navy defected to the Crimean government and turned it over to them, they're probably just helping Crimea by trying to prevent defection of their navy to Ukraine

How exactly, his defection from Ukraine, allows him to turn Ukrainian naval assets to anyone? or what right Russia has to blockade an Ukrainian ship, maned by Ukrainian sailor, in Ukrainian port?

 

Also to give some context to this latest Russian spin, first Russian forces have blockaded the Ukrainian port and Ukrainian naval headquarter (in violation of so many things) then the admiral was accused of treason after declined orders to offer resistance to the much much larger Russian force, then he poped on Russia TV declaring his personal defection. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/03/ukraine-navy-officers-defect-russian-crimea-berezovsky

 

Speaking of spins, former Ukraine President Yanukovych, who was deposed by majority vote of the Ukrainian representative house (after running away in the middle of a national crisis, to avoid criminal charges), was granted asylum in Russia, who call him the still legitimate president, so they can pretend that their previous agreements with Ukraine are void. Including the in which they assure Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial, which they have been violating. Which they have been violating.

 

Another case is Crimea referendum, first they take unilateral action in another sovereign state displacing the lawful public authorities of Ukraine and those local officials, then they produce call for referendum (while the building is held under control of armed men and isolated). Meanwhile pumping propaganda on their news about fascist, and whats not so they can rush this illegal action and hope that people will forget about it eventually because no one will call Russia on their BS over Ukraine.

Edited March 7, 2014 by Mor

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Bur 'murica invaded Afghanistan! Clearly Putin didn't want to miss all the fun, so it's cool.

[kgambit]

I'm still finding it odd that everyone is super-mad about Russia trying to influence countries... and no-one bats even their eyes with the many times the UN, America, EU etc. do so... in much worse ways than Russia now with Ukrain.

Maybe all American troops should get out of Mexico and just leave the drugtraffic go it's natural course, right?

Because really, that's about more offensive than what's going on here... why is the world offended?

 

The US troops are in Mexico with the approval of the Mexican government and working in concert with Mexican authorities.   Is that something the Russian troops in Ukraine can say?  Didn't think so.  

 

The world is offended for the some of the same reasons people ranted about the US invading Afghanistan.  Or do you only get offended when it's the US that is involved but are now willing to give the Russians a free pass?  Double standard much?  

 

Edit:  The US troops (150 spec ops) in Mexican are actually there in an advisory and training capacity.  Mexican law prevents foreign agents from operating on national soil with weapons.

Edited March 8, 2014 by kgambit

[Mor]

Bur 'murica invaded Afghanistan! Clearly Putin didn't want to miss all the fun, so it's cool.

Are you saying that Russian intervention in another sovereign state internal affairs (That Putin has been lobbying against, to maintain it interest e.g. weapons sales), is the same situation of USA declaring war on Afghanistan, which provided a strategic rear and base for extremist?

 

If you start a thread about Afghanistan, I can comment on this war, USA conduct in it or in general. Though I am not sure how this apple and oranges scenario fits here other than deflect from Russian actions in Ukraine, which btw is direct continuation to what happened in Georgia.

Edited March 8, 2014 by Mor

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

Bur 'murica invaded Afghanistan! Clearly Putin didn't want to miss all the fun, so it's cool.

Are you saying that Russian intervention in another sovereign state internal affairs (That Putin has been lobbying against, to maintain it interest e.g. weapons sales), is the same situation of USA declaring war on Afghanistan, which provided a strategic rear and base for extremist?

 

I'm making a joke about how some support for Russia's actions seems to boil down to "Well America(insert action here)".

Edited March 8, 2014 by KaineParker

[Elerond]

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/two-choices-in-crimean-referendum-yes-and-yes-338745.html

 

Seem that people really have lots of choices in upcoming vote

[Malcador]

Well, if you think about it, no one really can talk about others based on their past actions. US has interfered in places, invaded others (stuff like Panama, Grenade, Iraq, etc.) and so has Russia and any other nation with any clout.

 

All this moralizing is just BS, in that way.

[Zoraptor]

http://www.kyivpost....yes-338745.html

 

 

Heh, good to see that there's extra propaganda thrown in too, shame it makes me question if their other information is even slightly correct.

 

OMG webcams! OMG more ballots to be printed than electors! As opposed to the digital voting so popular in the US and being brought in in Britain which totally won't tell whoever runs the computers who was voting, and for whom. And if our elections here don't have far more ballots printed than there are electors I will eat my keyboard, computer, monitor and joystick then play no game other than Oblivion for the rest of the year- because you don't know exactly where people will go to vote, you can only estimate maximum numbers and print that maximum number of ballots for each booth. Typical damned if you do, damned if you don't set up, print too many ballots and it'll be for ballot stuffing, obviously, print too few then run out and OMG people's right to vote infringed, fraudulent!

Edited March 8, 2014 by Zoraptor