Attribute theory

[SunBroSolaire]

I wouldn't say it exactly makes 'sense'... Put Albert Einstein in the ring with Ivan Drago and see who does more damage

[J.E. Sawyer]

I wonder what the thinking is behind making Intellect affect damage. Just a balance thing? Doesn't really bother me, but I always assume STR will benefit raw damage output.

 

It is completely for balance.

[SunBroSolaire]

Cool, I can dig that.

[Sensuki]

I wouldn't say it exactly makes 'sense'... Put Albert Einstein in the ring with Ivan Drago and see who does more damage

Since damage affects ALL attacks (including spells) that do damage, it does actually make more sense than it being on Strength like I predicted.

[Tamerlane]

Very neat. I'm curious about one thing, though.

 

While we obviously know only a limited amount about the classes and have no real experience, the information revealed so far makes "high intellect, high resolve" (high intellect to reinforce their role as damage dealers, high resolve to improve the duration of their status effect-y stuff) seem like the basic, archetypical, ur-rogue build. Intellect and resolve also feed into willpower (the new name for psyche, I guess), which I believe is naturally the weakest defence on the rogue. Is this intentional design that we can expect to see with other classes, or did it arise organically as something you won't specifically attempt to recreate? Or is my assessment of rogues and stats misinformed in the first place?

[SunBroSolaire]

 

I wouldn't say it exactly makes 'sense'... Put Albert Einstein in the ring with Ivan Drago and see who does more damage

Since damage affects ALL attacks (including spells) that do damage, it does actually make more sense than it being on Strength like I predicted.

 

 

Ah yes, intellect improves spell damage.... just like in real life :D

Edited December 17, 2013 by SunBroSolaire

[J.E. Sawyer]

That would be a great rogue build, but so would Dexterity (Accuracy) and Perception (Critical Damage).  Hitting more often means more damage on average and more Critical Damage is great for a class that naturally converts some of its ordinary Hits to Crits (through Dirty Fighting).  That sort of a build emphasizes attributes that influence Reflexes, which is very rogue-like (but not... Roguelike).  If you want to build a burly thug, Strength and Constitution will help a rogue gain ground where they typically stink: taking hits.  This would give them a great Fortitude.  Of course, you can also mix them up in different ways, like a high Con / Int rogue that has great Stamina and does a lot of damage, but isn't necessarily super accurate or durable in the long run.  Or you could build a high Res / Str rogue that is very durable from fight to fight and relies on his or her long-duration status effects to keep an offensive edge.

 

The goal is not necessarily perfect balance, but attributes producing broad and general effects that make players go, "I wonder if a high would be cool..." and the answer is "you bet".  I'm positive that some builds will play more to the strengths of individual classes, but I think if we continue to tune these well, people will be able to make a really diverse number of fun characters -- from traditional to wacky.

[Sensuki]

Ah yes, intellect improves spell damage improves spell damage.... just like in real life :D

Try and think of it as knowing where to aim rather than how hard, I guess. My point is that it is a better abstraction of reality than using Strength is when it takes into account everything rather than just melee and thrown weapons.

[SunBroSolaire]

Well... but you shouldn't take magic into account if you're talking about abstraction of reality, is my point.

 

It doesn't matter anyway. I can suspend my disbelief, so if it makes the game more fun I'm all for it.

[Sensuki]

One thing I've noticed that I'm not too surprised about is that no attribute affects Action/Attack speed. This is not surprising since in D&D - no attributes affect attack speed.

 

What we do know is that armor affecs (ie. wearing it slows) attack speed, and so does the type of steel your weapon is made from (Ymyran is lighter/faster). Will there be any other ways to permanently increase attack speed through character building (such as talents, skills etc) or will it be largely equipment and ability based?

[Sensuki]

Also

 

I liked the idea of getting rid of class as a contributor to non-AC-like defenses.

Do classes still get a static bonus to other defenses, or are they now completely reliant on attributes ?

 

E: And because Health and "Carry slot" are kind of long term situations, there is a risk of this attribute becoming ... not really a dump stat, but a stat that you may not want to increase very highly. Inventory slots does limit tactical options in the field and Health does increase your longevity over an adventuring day, so it seems that it might be a good stat to chuck a few points into - but if there are too many rest locations, or the player has the ability to leave an area without consequence and return to the Stronghold to rest, I don't see too many people having max strength.

 

Perception is another one that seems a bit situational, on classes that aren't really focused on dealing damage, it doesn't really make too much sense to put any points into perception - rather just put those in Dexterity instead as you are getting accuracy (thus more consistent damage) and Reflex.

 

Are attributes on a 100 point scale ?

 

That may not be an issue though.

Edited December 17, 2013 by Sensuki

[Infinitron]

I think you could quell some of the SIMULATIONIST OUTRAGE by renaming Intellect to "Expertise" or "Coordination"...but at this point, it might be funnier to keep it the way it is.

Edited December 17, 2013 by Infinitron

[JFSOCC]

In DnD it was usually two stats for each character that stood above the rest, is that similar here?

If I don't invest much in stamina, can I augment it by using buffs from other classes? (other than the dreaded paladin)

 

It's been clear for a while that rogues no longer are skill-monkeys. (The also dreaded 18 intelligence DnD Rogue)

I'm curious are there any attributes which affect skill-points? If not will there be alternatives for players who like skill-based characters? (like traits/feats)

Or is it required that you specialize most of your party members each in different skills to get the best out of your party?

What about skill synergy?

[tajerio]

Also

 

I liked the idea of getting rid of class as a contributor to non-AC-like defenses.

Do classes still get a static bonus to other defenses, or are they now completely reliant on attributes ?

 

E: And because Health and "Carry slot" are kind of long term situations, there is a risk of this attribute becoming ... not really a dump stat, but a stat that you may not want to increase very highly. Inventory slots does limit tactical options in the field and Health does increase your longevity over an adventuring day, so it seems that it might be a good stat to chuck a few points into - but if there are too many rest locations, or the player has the ability to leave an area without consequence and return to the Stronghold to rest, I don't see too many people having max strength.

 

Perception is another one that seems a bit situational, on classes that aren't really focused on dealing damage, it doesn't really make too much sense to put any points into perception - rather just put those in Dexterity instead as you are getting accuracy (thus more consistent damage) and Reflex.

 

Are attributes on a 100 point scale ?

 

That may not be an issue though.

 

 

I see your point on strength.  But if I recall correctly, you can hit critically on something with a duration effect, right?  So perhaps Perception would still be worth it for status effect types.  Then it might be a kind of tradeoff between having high Resolve (when all hits have expanded duration) and high Perception (critical hits have enormously expanded duration).  Though I don't know if that's how the system works, obviously.

[Nonek]

Strength affects your Health and number of inventory slots.  Constitution affects Stamina.  Dexterity affects Accuracy.  Perception affects Critical Damage.  Intellect affects Damage and Healing.  Resolve affects Durations and AoE size.  We may slightly shift these, but this is what we will be working with in the foreseeable future.

 

Each defense (other than Deflection) is equally influenced by two stats.  Aside from level, the attributes that contribute to each defense are the primary determining factors of that defense.  Class (now) rarely has a large influence on a character's defenses.

 

Fortitude - Strength and Constitution

Reflexes - Dexterity and Perception

Willpower - Intellect and Resolve

 

Deflection is the exception to this.  While Fort/Ref/Will share roughly equal time in defending characters, Deflection is the most commonly-attacked defense.  It is not influenced by any attribute and is mostly determined by level and class.  Characters like fighters and paladins have great base Deflection.  Characters like priests and wizards do not.

 

I like this, the only problem I would have with it is strength not affecting damage, as that seems to be basic physics. In my homebrew campaign I made strength mandate the damage you did, and weapons simply add bonuses to that (along with some special abilities,) however I can see the sense in training in weapons being the governing factor in being able to best use the weapon.

 

I wonder if the developers have thought of strength only being of use against armour? One suspects a fair amount of heft may be needed for battering through some monstrous scale or battle armour.

 

However I did find the Ivan Drago versus Albert Einstein comment very humorous.

Edited December 17, 2013 by Nonek

[J.E. Sawyer]

I see your point on strength.  But if I recall correctly, you can hit critically on something with a duration effect, right?  So perhaps Perception would still be worth it for status effect types.  Then it might be a kind of tradeoff between having high Resolve (when all hits have expanded duration) and high Perception (critical hits have enormously expanded duration).  Though I don't know if that's how the system works, obviously.

 

Yes.  When you score a Crit with a duration-based effect, the duration increases significantly.

[J.E. Sawyer]

I like this, the only problem I would have with it is strength not affecting damage, as that seems to be basic physics. 

 

It's only basic physics if you think about weapons like swords and maces.  Crossbows, guns, wands, and spells don't seem like they would intuitively gain damage bonuses from increased Strength.  That's where you get A/D&D's quasi-simulationist damage bonus breakdown and dramatically variable weight to the Strength stat based on class and weapon type.

[Nonek]

True.

[SunBroSolaire]

My only concern about Strength is that it seems like a 'convenience' stat. Like, it appears that it wouldn't be smart to put a lot of points into STR, as the main benefit is that it saves you time, running back to bonfires/inns and shuffling your equipment between fights. Seems like a conflict between playing the game optimally and having fun.

[ItinerantNomad]

it might be nicer if intelligence affects total damage output and strength affects the range of variability in damage output. Something to that effect might be nice.

 

Josh, have you considered modeling each attribute in some sort of system to make sure that each attribute provides the same "value" to players across the board? It seems that SunBrosolaire makes a good point, and perhaps it might make a difference that certain attributes have multiple derived stats (like strength with inventory slots and health) and certain attributes have one (but highly valuable derived stat) like intelligence and damage.

 

Just to be clear, I don't care much for the verisimilitude argument, but I do think that derived stats determine the value of the attribute, and if the stats do not provide sufficient value to a player, they might not take it. But I guess that's obvious..

Edited December 17, 2013 by ItinerantNomad

[ItinerantNomad]

The nice thing is that they are all being evaluated under the same scope of combat effectiveness. It makes it easier to "balance."

[Yonjuro]

 

I like this, the only problem I would have with it is strength not affecting damage, as that seems to be basic physics. 

 

It's only basic physics if you think about weapons like swords and maces.  ....

 

 Digression ahead.

 

 Putting on my martial arts hat (with the physics and biomechanics plumes jauntily affixed): Even for melee weapons (or even fists), in real life, raw strength is not the 'primary stat' for damage. Even discounting technique (which shouldn't be discounted and is arguably intellect plus dexterity for the most part, maybe resolve to some degree), the purely physical stat is effective strength, the number of muscle fibers that are recruited in a very short time (at most a few hundred milliseconds, typically) - raw strength is one contributor to that, but not really the main one - it's more due to (plyometric) training to get muscle fibers to respond faster - more skill than strength (but yes, strength helps).

 

 My takeaway point is:

 

 Q:Which stat contributes to real life physical damage?

 

 A:Probably all of them, so pick one. Intellect seems as good as any.

[jamoecw]

 

I like this, the only problem I would have with it is strength not affecting damage, as that seems to be basic physics. 

 

It's only basic physics if you think about weapons like swords and maces.  Crossbows, guns, wands, and spells don't seem like they would intuitively gain damage bonuses from increased Strength.  That's where you get A/D&D's quasi-simulationist damage bonus breakdown and dramatically variable weight to the Strength stat based on class and weapon type.

 

not exactly, hitting the strongest point on plate armor with a mace deals concussive force distributed across the entire piece of armour, mitigated by padding underneath.  hitting the same spot with a sword does the same.  more strength means more concussive force.  with a crossbow or gun, more strength means a steadier aim.

now we get into accuracy, hitting that one spot with great accuracy with a sword or mace is pretty pointless, while hitting that spot with a crossbow or gun is less so due to its penetration.  this is due to the presence of vitals under the armour, which knowing this is a function of intelligence.

so if one were to hit the best possible spot in the best possible manner using a sword one would use the point at a **** in the armor and angle it towards a vital spot, at which point strength is generally multiplied by leverage to levels in which massive strength is rather pointless, while a mace would hit a weak point which would cause damage with little mitigation or distribution, and thus extra strength is not a significant factor.  for crossbows and guns proper body positioning and sight picture trumps strength by a vast degree for steadiness of the shot, and thus is not a major factor in hitting your target, and thus intelligence is more important in that regard too.

without plate armor little extra strength is needed to penetrate the skin using a blade, and simply being able to get the mace up to speed is more important than strength, in both cases strength has diminishing returns the more you get above the minimum required to use the weapon.

 

therefore strength is rarely needed when in an ideal situation, strength only becomes a beneficial factor the further away from ideal you get.  which is for the most part based on dexterity and intelligence.

 

for simplicity i'd have weapons have minimum strength requirements, then not use strength for damage beyond being able to use a heavier weapon or a stronger bow.

 

edit: now that i think about it, if strength mitigates encumbrance, and encumbrance mitigates attack speed, then more strength = faster attack speed = more damage.  which is realistic in a lot of ways.

Edited December 18, 2013 by jamoecw

[ItinerantNomad]

Are you going to be making certain weapons have strength or intelligence limits before being able to be used? Will you plesae let the players know that if you do, so that we don't get blind-sided half-way through the game.

 

Thanks.

[coffeetable]

Are you going to be making certain weapons have strength or intelligence limits before being able to be used?

I've got a bad record with predictions recently, but I'd be surprised if this were the case because it generates serious frustration if you fall 1 point short of a cool item. What I'd be less surprised about is items that are always usable, but suffer some penalty if you fall short on a certain stat. Take STR in Fallout: New Vegas, for example: you can use any weapon while having any amount of strength, but if you have less than the minimum STR specified, you'll suffer accuracy penalties.

Edited December 18, 2013 by coffeetable