Attribute theory

[Iucounu]

Was a bit confused at first, since there is no attribute that contributes to deflection, and I love making defensive builds. However, I figure it probably makes sense the way it is. Just hope there are enough possibilities to modify your deflection through passive abilities or skills. 

Also, I hope things like reflexes will be used as a defense against certain combat maneuvers, not only against e.g spells and traps. Same with fortitude or even willpower.

[Cultist]

Please, do explain to me how your damage-dealing god (decked out with the bestest gear ever, of course) is going to be useful for the majority of the fight if he's knocked out in the first few seconds. Yes, the priest can probably get you back and heal some stamina, but the more you heal, the more opportunity opens up for the enemies to chip away your Health... and if that hits zero, the results ain't pretty. As for Resolve, yes, that is something you can work around (except for the fact that it affects Psyche defense, and having your extra-uber-OP killing machine turned against you doesn't spell a very long adventuring career for the rest of the party), assuming you don't use anything status effect-related, or AoE attacks. But without Dex, you're basically useless *shrug*.

Because damage dealing god is expected to take precautions to prevent being knocked out in the first few seconds. Be it equipment or spells or potion or something else. I have no problem surviving with min\maxed mages, rogues or fighters in BG series. You are describing theories without even knowing what spells or other attributes will do and how they will perform in PE. I am talking about one attribute that will be FAR more important than the rest due to affecting all damage and effectiveness, rather than some of them.

Characters will die easily because you'll have no health or stamina. All the other things I mentioned are specifically the effects of the other stats as described by Josh earlier.

And yeah, you'll be able to build characters however you want on easier difficulties, but the idea that maxing their damage is squeezing out every drop of effectiveness at higher difficulties is only true if it's hard for characters to die which seems like a flawed assumption. Josh thinks games should be challenging and has said the higher difficulties will feel like all the hardest fights in the IWD games, he also wants the game to be balanced so I have no doubt he will balance health and stamina to be valuable.

Equipment have a traditional role for compensating that chars lack in stats. But I am talking about dump stats. If in BG2 we had dumps like Charisma for fighters, or Str for wizards, we also had universally useful Dex. 18 dex 18 int 18 con wizard lost nothing for reducing other attributes. If PE is going to have Int governing damage and effectiveness, then it is inevitably will be maxed for combat classes. In my opinion, that is a broblem. It turns choice from "how should I rearrange stats for my character for greater effectiveness" to "which stat should i sacrifice to max Int"

[Cultist]

Also, according to the current attribute system this guy will slaughter a dragon by ramming the beast with his wheelchair.

[Lephys]

For people who don't like the attribute system, good feedback for the developers will include a character that you want to play that you can't build with the current attributes. That would be a good bug report,. Developers like good bug reports.

Excellent advice, methinks.

 

Hmmm... Well, I can't be certain as to the EXACT effects of all the stats thus far, but...

 

1) A powerful hulk of a Warrior who smashes things around far more than others (when applicable) but lacks finesse and cleverness. He's not really dumb... he just doesn't really care much about anything beyond the basics of how not to attack really stupidly. Also, he's resilient, but doesn't have an extra 17 pints of blood in his system, and hardened veins. So, I dunno how to make that guy with PoE stats.

 

2) A caster-type who relies on the potency and sharpness of their mind, and who uses a weapon as a backup, but doesn't have the maximum weapon damage bonus just because they've got maximum mental capacity. Also, maybe he's frequently helpful by figuring out oodles of extra information and details that your other characters couldn't figure out, because intellect. So, lots and lots of scripted interactions and dialogue allowances there.

 

Also, for what it's worth, I don't really think Josh is "ignoring" us (and I figure you maybe didn't mean it quite literally); it's not ignoring if he's just too busy to even read the stuff in the first place. It's only ignoring if he has the opportunity to read it and reply to it, but simply opts not to respond at all after reading. 8P I'm pretty sure he is, indeed, quite busy, and yet he responds whenever he gets the chance.

[Ganrich]

@Lephys - This is in theory btw.

 

1). Medium strength (doesn't have an extra 17 pints of blood), medium/high constitution, little Dexteriy, high perception, lower intellect, and medium/high resolve. This would allow the fighter to have high crit chances, decent staying power, increased stuns and perhaps DoT effects and maybe increased AoE from his weapon.

 

2). This one is rough, but I would do a similar build as above. You would crit a fair bit, have increase effects and AoEs from spells, so on. The one change I would make is perhaps pull points from con and str and increase dexterity to higher levels. That way you graze less with your weapon. You would start out at range in an encounter and possibly move closer toward the end of combat. This doesn't fit the maximum mental capacity thing, but that makes this example intentionally difficult.

 

This is with our limited information, and the second skirts your rules a bit. However I believe these builds would work pretty much inside your parameters.

 

It's Xmas, and I hope Josh is far and away from this forum at the moment.

 

@Cultist - In D&D, Sloth (Goonies) could kill dragons. That sword cuts both ways.

 

Edit: I think it is safe to assume our PCs in Pillars of Eternity won't be suffering from ALS. They will have functioning bodies. Just like in D&D you can't drop your intelligence to the point of being a vegetable.

Edited December 24, 2013 by Ganrich

[Yonjuro]

@Lephys - This is in theory btw.

 

1). Medium strength (doesn't have an extra 17 pints of blood), medium/high constitution, little Dexteriy, high perception, lower intellect, and medium/high resolve. This would allow the fighter to have high crit chances, decent staying power, increased stuns and perhaps DoT effects and maybe increased AoE from his weapon.

 

 

 This might also work as a barbarian for extra AoE damage (one interpretation of 'smashing things around'). I'm not sure how the lower deflection (but lower health damage per stamina damage) will play out, but it might work for this build.

 

 

 

2). This one is rough, but I would do a similar build as above. You would crit a fair bit, have increase effects and AoEs from spells, so on. The one change I would make is perhaps pull points from con and str and increase dexterity to higher levels. That way you graze less with your weapon. You would start out at range in an encounter and possibly move closer toward the end of combat. This doesn't fit the maximum mental capacity thing, but that makes this example intentionally difficult.

 

 

 I think this one will work as a high INT character. Wizards get a bonus to hit with wands but wands don't do a lot of damage. I don't think Wizards do as much damage with weapons (or perhaps they don't hit as often) as other classes (Rogues and Rangers in particular, but I would assume Fighters too) even with high intellect(, but we don't really have enough information about that - and, there may be spells like Tensor's Transformation for short term damage dealing goodness).

 

 

Also, for what it's worth, I don't really think Josh is "ignoring" us ...

 

It's Xmas, and I hope Josh is far and away from this forum at the moment. 

 

 Yup, I agree with both of these comments. 

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Because damage dealing god is expected to take precautions to prevent being knocked out in the first few seconds. Be it equipment or spells or potion or something else.

I have no problem surviving with min\maxed mages, rogues or fighters in BG series.

You are describing theories without even knowing what spells or other attributes will do and how they will perform in PE.

I am talking about one attribute that will be FAR more important than the rest due to affecting all damage and effectiveness, rather than some of them.

 

 

As I've stated earlier, you can probably fiddle a lot with healing (and probably gaining temporary Stamina), but this just lets enemies bash at you longer and reduce your Health more. Alternatively, you can equip heavier armor, but that reduces your attack speed, and therefore, DPS (it stands to reason that armor-granting spells will either have some drawback like this, or they'll be pretty high level).

Of course you don't, because the rather shoddy (well, actually not so much, but tabletop's  tabletop) system lets you dump certain attributes which do nothing for you, while simultaneously increasing both damage output and survivability.

Seriously now, did you not read the thread? Sawyer just came in and explained in detail what the individual attributes will do.

Actually, if we count status effects duration into effectiveness (and why shouldn't we), then it won't govern all effectiveness. Also, your bonus damage means exactly jack, if you constantly deliver misses at a base damage of 0.

[PrimeJunta]

@Cultist, raw damage output per hit is not the most important stat for a combat class, even if we ignore defensive features like the ability to soak or avoid damage.

 

There are three characteristics that affect damage output in PoE: accuracy, criticals, and base damage. Your maxed-out Intellect won't help much if your character never manages to hit. A crit does double damage, which counts for much more than that against (tough) enemies with a high DT, so a character who has pumped crits might be doing more damage than a character who's dumped it but pumped Intellect. The exact equation will depend on just how much each of the attributes affects each of these aspects, and what kinds of enemies we'll be facing, of course: the crit-maxer will do best against high-DT enemies, the hit-maxer against high-deflection enemies, and the raw-damage-maxer against mobs of squishies. I'm sure they'll be doing that kind of balancing all through the development process.

 

But we already know that it's certainly not going to be as simple as "max out Intellect to be a combat god." I'm kinda surprised you can't do this much arithmetic yourself, actually; it's fairly obvious to me anyway.

 

(Tangent: if you want an example of a "pump INT whatever you do" system, S.P.E.C.I.A.L. Skill points are everything, so if you're not maxing out INT you're gimping yourself. Finally got around to playing FO: New Vegas, and while I'm enjoying it a lot -- probably the best sandbox game I've played --, it really could do so much better with better systems and more challenging character development. The same applies to all Fallout games natch, NV isn't even the worst offender.)

[Cultist]

In both SPECIAL and BG2 you could max at least two stats. I expect this will be true in PE as well. So most probably I would be able to max Int, crit and put rest to Con or accuracy for fighter. Or max int, crit\resolve for damage dealing mage. Works for me.

Edited December 24, 2013 by Cultist

[PrimeJunta]

Sure, why not? 

 

If you're assuming that that's objectively the best build, though, you're probably mistaken.

[Nonek]

Possible archetypes I will most probably design a character around are as follows:

 

1. A hulking brute of great thews and little culture or intelligence, hits like a sledgehammer due to his high strength and has a natural viciousness and a seemingly innate grasp of combat, perhaps born of a warrior culture or maybe even a simple farmers lad. Is stubborn and hard headed but easily manipulated, usually relies on his strength and toughness to pull him out of any situation. Is an extremely straightforward talker, says what he means and damns the consequences, whether talking to a beggar or a king.

 

2. A Raistlin like character, whose health is shattered and body wasted away but whose intellect and willpower is as iron. A manipulator and showman, whose cold perceptive eyes are like mirrors, they only show what the beholder wishes to see and nothing of himself. Immaculate manners and a cool calm disposition hide the fires that rage within him.

[Mor]

You are describing theories without even knowing what spells or other attributes will do and how they will perform in PE. I am talking about one attribute that will be FAR more important than the rest due to affecting all damage and effectiveness, rather than some of them.

If PE is going to have Int governing damage and effectiveness, then it is inevitably will be maxed for combat classes. In my opinion, that is a broblem. It turns choice from "how should I rearrange stats for my character for greater effectiveness" to "which stat should i sacrifice to max Int"

similarly I can say that you assume that damage bonus you get from int is the most important/effective among the rest.. without even knowing the specifics of the attributes effects or how it balanced out among the abilities/talents/etc

 

 

My two cents: It was said that Rouge class has the most per target damage, but that resolve(AoE damage) is important to them, so it possible that you have several path of developing your skills for whatever attribute you choose.

 

Monks relies on getting hit to power their abilities and Barbarian has some special thing involving stamina/health, I doubt that int is their most important attribute.

 

Personally, I would start with a fighter who is responsible for area control, to hold on and soak up the damage(Again no healing), not a heavy hitter.

 

 

Also going by defense groups you have to focus on health\stamina dexterity\perception or int\resolve.

[Yonjuro]

Possible archetypes I will most probably design a character around are as follows:

 

1. A hulking brute of great thews and little culture or intelligence, hits like a sledgehammer due to his high strength and has a natural viciousness and a seemingly innate grasp of combat, perhaps born of a warrior culture or maybe even a simple farmers lad. Is stubborn and hard headed but easily manipulated, usually relies on his strength and toughness to pull him out of any situation. Is an extremely straightforward talker, says what he means and damns the consequences, whether talking to a beggar or a king.

 

 

 

 

 This should be doable, though I think part of the reason for hitting like sledgehammer will be due to his critical damage bonus rather than raw damage bonus.

 

 

 

2. A Raistlin like character, whose health is shattered and body wasted away but whose intellect and willpower is as iron. A manipulator and showman, whose cold perceptive eyes are like mirrors, they only show what the beholder wishes to see and nothing of himself. Immaculate manners and a cool calm disposition hide the fires that rage within him.

 

 

Hmm, maybe a Cipher in PoE?

[Nonek]

 

Possible archetypes I will most probably design a character around are as follows:

 

1. A hulking brute of great thews and little culture or intelligence, hits like a sledgehammer due to his high strength and has a natural viciousness and a seemingly innate grasp of combat, perhaps born of a warrior culture or maybe even a simple farmers lad. Is stubborn and hard headed but easily manipulated, usually relies on his strength and toughness to pull him out of any situation. Is an extremely straightforward talker, says what he means and damns the consequences, whether talking to a beggar or a king.

 

 

 

 

 This should be doable, though I think part of the reason for hitting like sledgehammer will be due to his critical damage bonus rather than raw damage bonus.

 

 

 

2. A Raistlin like character, whose health is shattered and body wasted away but whose intellect and willpower is as iron. A manipulator and showman, whose cold perceptive eyes are like mirrors, they only show what the beholder wishes to see and nothing of himself. Immaculate manners and a cool calm disposition hide the fires that rage within him.

 

 

Hmm, maybe a Cipher in PoE?

 

 

I don't aim on making the Brute perceptive, in fact somewhat the opposite, perception and intellect will be his dump stats so i'm assuming that he will be a consistent hard hitter because of his massive strength while almost never critting.

 

I don't think the Cipher class would suit my Raistlin type character, he will be extremely weak, most likely not know anything of weapons and disdain their use. The Spellblade description of the Cipher sounds counter intuitive to his central premise, of staying out of trouble and using his fireworks.

 

Thank you for the feedback however.

[Yonjuro]

I don't aim on making the Brute perceptive, in fact somewhat the opposite, perception and intellect will be his dump stats so i'm assuming that he will be a consistent hard hitter because of his massive strength while almost never critting.

 

 

 Oh, I see. I was thinking of high perception due to his "seemingly innate grasp of combat".  I'm not sure if your build is supported, but maybe a Barbarian with high Strength, Constitution and Resolve (for extra AoE damage) would be close.

 

 

I don't think the Cipher class would suit my Raistlin type character, he will be extremely weak, most likely not know anything of weapons and disdain their use. The Spellblade description of the Cipher sounds counter intuitive to his central premise, of staying out of trouble and using his fireworks.

 

 

 

 Ok, I see what you're looking for (I wasn't familiar with Raistlin, but WikiPedia to the rescue). It sounds like a high Intellect and Resolve, low Strength and Constitution Wizard using spells and, maybe, wands?

[Nonek]

Not that fond of the Barbarian as i'd prefer my Brute to be able to go toe to toe with bosses and high value targets rather than killing fodder, however i'm of a similar opinion that this build will probably not be supported. A pity as it seems a fairly common archetype.

 

The Wizard sounds spot on, though i've never fancied wands as they remind me of that bespectacled lad weilding his twig while mouthing pig latin, Harold Trotter?

[Yonjuro]

 

The Wizard sounds spot on, though i've never fancied wands as they remind me of that bespectacled lad weilding his twig while mouthing pig latin, Harold Trotter?

 

 Yes, with a name like trotter one would expect pig latin.

[Silent Winter]

In both SPECIAL and BG2 you could max at least two stats. I expect this will be true in PE as well. So most probably I would be able to max Int, crit and put rest to Con or accuracy for fighter. Or max int, crit\resolve for damage dealing mage. Works for me.

Don't know about SPECIAL but BG2 had you rolling stats - so you could easily max 2 if not 3.

PE will be more like NWN2 point-buy - sure you could buy lots of strength but then you'd have too few points for CON/DEX.

For a fighter in that, I'd buy 16-17 STR, similar CON and maybe 15-16 DEX (though NWN2 allows increasing stats at certain level-ups so you could end up with higher STR at epic-levels).(Which means that 18 STR isn't really maxed at all).

Edit - gear to improve stats notwithstanding - may as well get a good build and then improve strength through gear as improve DEX / CON etc.

Edited December 25, 2013 by Silent Winter

[Cultist]

Don't know about SPECIAL but BG2 had you rolling stats - so you could easily max 2 if not 3.

PE will be more like NWN2 point-buy - sure you could buy lots of strength but then you'd have too few points for CON/DEX.

For a fighter in that, I'd buy 16-17 STR, similar CON and maybe 15-16 DEX (though NWN2 allows increasing stats at certain level-ups so you could end up with higher STR at epic-levels).(Which means that 18 STR isn't really maxed at all).

Edit - gear to improve stats notwithstanding - may as well get a good build and then improve strength through gear as improve DEX / CON etc.

I base my assumptions on a theory, that in PE stats would not be increased throughout the game and character will have a fixed amount of them to distribute at the beginning. Game system will determine the value of non-Int attributes I may choose to sacrifice. Example - Fallout have a very strict requirements for player attributes - due to perks being very dependant on skills AND stats and some perks, critical to character build, could not be gained without rising a stat to certain value. So, for example, should PE feature powerful armors, that will impose severe penalties if character's STR=<7 then I will adjust my fighter build to have max Int, 7 str and rest to accuracy\crit, depending on what will be more effective in terms of damage dealing. Same adjustment goes to wizards and rogues. That does not mean I will not max Int, that means i will sacrifice different stats.

[PrimeJunta]

@Cultist, would you still not sacrifice Int if someone demonstrated mathematically to you that some other combination or base damage bonus, accuracy, crit chance, and attack speed yields greater damage per hit and damage per second in all circumstances? Just asking.

[Adhin]

I think all this talk about whats balanced and whats 'the best build' is a little pointless at this time honestly. Ultimately I think allowing for RP options is more important to these games. If you have strength and it doesn't effect melee damage your basically killing off an entire line of common and beloved character archetypes. I honestly don't think there's anything wrong with picking different attributes for effecting different kind of damage but if that's not really an option then I feel like STR should effect damage, and INT should effect Crit damage or chance (not both, of course).

 

In the end it's more about being able to create any given persons prefered character archetypes or weird oddball characters. Hell I'd go as far to say as damage should just be removed entirely from attributes if it wont be on strength or split up depending on the type of attack. Cause moving it to INT, if they keep with these naming convention, it just a stifle to RP'ing up a character, and I for one do not want that to happen. It's more important to me then getting a perfect balance, by a long, long mile.

[jamoecw]

 

 

a big burly man with 4 times the strength will have an impact force ~40% greater than the weaker person, not 4 times.  this is all assuming that all that matters is applied force, not type of muscles being used, or wind resistance, or the fact that as you press the weapon into something the resistance will increase.

 

that last part is pretty important.  a katana deals damage based on the weapon moving through an object (cutting it), the mace by transferring the force of impact (which isn't exactly true).  so if the width katana is double the width of its impact zone (the impact zone is actually far less) that means that the ~40% better impact force translates to ~10% more damage potential (ability to cut) by force alone.  so if a super lightweight katana that takes 6 strength to use is used by an 18 strength character they would get a 10% damage bonus, which is to say it does make a difference, just not a worthwhile one.

 

the mace (assuming transfer of force for damage) distributes its force across the area of the armour.  so ~40% extra force transferred from a 4 square inch area (way oversized) to a 12 square inch area (way undersized), results in a ~1.6% increase in force.  even worth less than the katana.

 

now if one were to be smart and hit say an eye socket, not only is the resistance vastly less than steel, but the organs hit are much more vital than muscle and bone.  thus instead of dealing with a fraction of 1 (100% is 1) for a bonus, you end up with double digit multipliers at the very least.  if you have 4 times the strength i would recommend using a weapon 4 times the weight, sense that will make a bigger difference (but still not nearly the same as hitting good spots).

 

strength as a damage booster is intuitive, but far from realistic.

 

Riiiiiiggghhht.

 

You need more practical experience with swinging a weapon or a tool and less blind faith in your equations. And if you keep throwing numbers at us, at least let us see those equations.

 

this has to do with newton's laws of physics about an object resisting change.  applying force will only boost the velocity by the root of the force applied, not the same as the force applied.  thus the speed of an object is the root of the force applied (approximately), so 2* the force equals 1.4142...* speed, or ~40% more speed.  the rest is just dividing the force up to fill the new area, very quick and dirty, but it does drive home the point.

 

feel free to show me up by using more precise formulae.

 

 

 

a big burly man with 4 times the strength will have an impact force ~40% greater than the weaker person, not 4 times.  this is all assuming that all that matters is applied force, not type of muscles being used, or wind resistance, or the fact that as you press the weapon into something the resistance will increase.

 

that last part is pretty important.  a katana deals damage based on the weapon moving through an object (cutting it), the mace by transferring the force of impact (which isn't exactly true).  so if the width katana is double the width of its impact zone (the impact zone is actually far less) that means that the ~40% better impact force translates to ~10% more damage potential (ability to cut) by force alone.  so if a super lightweight katana that takes 6 strength to use is used by an 18 strength character they would get a 10% damage bonus, which is to say it does make a difference, just not a worthwhile one.

 

the mace (assuming transfer of force for damage) distributes its force across the area of the armour.  so ~40% extra force transferred from a 4 square inch area (way oversized) to a 12 square inch area (way undersized), results in a ~1.6% increase in force.  even worth less than the katana.

 

now if one were to be smart and hit say an eye socket, not only is the resistance vastly less than steel, but the organs hit are much more vital than muscle and bone.  thus instead of dealing with a fraction of 1 (100% is 1) for a bonus, you end up with double digit multipliers at the very least.  if you have 4 times the strength i would recommend using a weapon 4 times the weight, sense that will make a bigger difference (but still not nearly the same as hitting good spots).

 

strength as a damage booster is intuitive, but far from realistic.

I'm not really here to argue the details of simulation. My "4x stronger, 4x more force" example was very generalized. You realize that they've used force measurements to measure the impact of adept martial artists, and the amount of force they can generate is WAYYYYYYY beyond what I can generate, even though I'm a fully grown 6'1" male at 200lbs. So, yeah, I'd wager that, whatever the exact numbers are, they're pretty consistent in the sheer output department. The human body is just a machine made of flesh. If you can double the force of a hydraulic piston, you can double the force of a human arm.

 

Also, you're assuming that extra force with the katana is applied in a chopping fashion ("at" the target), which doesn't have to be the case. If you swung the katana that hard AT someone in armor, it'd just break, probably. OR they'd get knocked to the ground or stagger backwards. The force doesn't just cancel out or evaporate just because the blade can't transfer it directly into a deeper slice. Which is kind of precisely my point. Which is kind of why I didn't stress that you'd generate more resulting damage, but that you'd simply generate more force. Hence, your mace-on-armor example... Armor is going to do what armor is going to do. That's why, in a game, it typically does something like reduces damage. Meaning, your Strength typically makes you do additional damage, and that damage gets reduced by the armor. Not "Well, he's wearing armor, so your Strength literally stops affecting how hard you can hit him." Also, we're not going to be fighting JUST armored humanoids in this entire game, so it's not like an armored person is the only example we need to look at.

 

the key difference between you and a martial artist is skill.  anytime novices attempt to do strength tests by measuring velocity they end up with far less force than think due to the difference in how to do something (just look at early mythbuster robots mimicking human actions, before they bring in experts).  knowledge (skill) is a huge factor.

i didn't say that strength isn't a factor, just not as big of one as we think (or as much as other factors).  another misleading thing is how we perceive damage and force, it skews it towards the limit, so half feels less than half, and double feels more than double.

[curryinahurry]

^ The point Lephys is making in this thread still holds.  In fact, his example of a character arch- type that currently can't be created within this new system; The Brute, is a pretty glaring problem.  The system Obsidian has designed was created to make a wider variety of builds viable and to get rid of dump stats.  If Strength is a passive attribute, that pretty much negates the concept of any traditionally strength oriented builds.  So unless there is a skill or ability that models physical strength,  Obsidian's system seems to have at least one major flaw.

 

That was why Silent Winter and I had the discussion of re-naming Strength and intellect to something more appropriate and turning Strength into a skill.  This would allow Lephys to role-play his brute.  

 

I haven't seen any other proposals that address this problem but would be interested to see if anyone has a concept that isn't wildly obscure or counter-intuitive.

[Ganrich]

So warriors can't dump all their points into Strength and maximize damage potential. I have given many examples of builds that (if Obsidian balances the effects of the attributes) allow non-intellect based builds for warriors. They are all theory of course, but if I can describe them with our knowledge of the system... It stands to reason given Obsidian's goals that we can build them.

 

The Brute can exist in this system, but not by speccing only strength and con. Perception for criticals, dexterity for accuracy, resolve for AOE, stuns, and bleeds. You can make the archetype. You also have a few different flavors to select from.

 

If we say things like "I want to build a high damage warrior that had no points in strength" we can poke holes in any attribute system as this example does to D&D. The question is, "Does this system allow for a build that hits hard in melee without having a high Int?" I say it does as we have 3 other stats that can increase your damage in some form.

 

I am thinking of a build right now with a focus on strength, dexterity, and perception. It hardly grazes, and tends to crit fairly often.

 

Don't want dexterity? How about a character with the background of a bodyguard or bouncer? Strength makes sense, as does Perception ( bouncer needs to see danger before it gets too close as does the bodyguard), resolve would make sense in both scenarios as well. This character will crit a fair bit, I would focus on stun duration since knocking out your opponent makes sense with this example.

 

The only caveat here I see is that you can't spec solely strength and con and potentially dump every other stat and have an epic dragon killing warrior. Something many PnP games (not naming names) have allowed warriors to do for years. Now, if you do that you will be a tank build.

[curryinahurry]

You're missing the point.  Lephys' example isn't about min/maxing or dumping other stats.  His example is of a strength based fighter that uses Strength to do more damage.  That currently isn't possible because Strength has no effect on damage.  Certainly you can make a hard hitting characters in this system, but not the Brute Archetype, because Perception, Dexterity, Resolve are not Strength.  Can they augment Strength?  Certainly; and that would make the Brute Archetype Brute-ier.  But because Strength is a passive attribute (as far as we know) it has no bearing on combat except survivability.

 

The only way that your example could approach a Brute Archetype is if Strength allowed a character to wield heavier object wiithout penalties that delivered more damage.  As of now, we don't know if that is possible.