Attribute theory

[IndiraLightfoot]

An offshoot on the discussion on strength and damage:

Growing up, I often saw first hand, or even found out about it the hard way, that the guys dealing most damage in fights and brawls seldom were the strongest (strength), biggest (mass) or fastest (agility). Oddly enough, sometimes it didn't even come down to some vast fighting experience earned in street fights or brawls on a campus. The best way I could describe these fighting juggernauts is ferocity of an almost berserk-like nature. They also, usually, endured or ignored pain very effectively. I've seen a guy of 13, 5 ft 4, flooring the biggest guy in school (all muscles, 6 ft 3, 200 lbs, with one punch to the neck. And that guy had been in like three fights in his life and he wasn't very fast. BUT! He had that pain-ignoring ferocity and go-go-go-quality that was to his advantage several times (since after that other "tough" guys had to challenge him, of course... *sigh*) And he won each fight within seconds.

 

EDIT: It's almost an animal instinct quality. Let's call it the badger factor, just to honour Obsidian (thinking of NWN2). Some perhaps prefer the wolverine factor.

Edited December 21, 2013 by IndiraLightfoot

[Mor]

I like the name as they are, while somewhat differently interpreted in game terms, the idea behind them is the same and renaming them to something will make it less intuitive. IMO the problem is the carry over from BG, attributes used to be simple/familiar: Strength favored by warrior types, Dexterity rogues, Intelligence sorcerers, Wisdom Mages, Charisma Druids.. But atm we don't know/familiar enough to pin down what will best fit for our first build and that makes us anxious(that or maybe the balancing act for better gameplay came at the cost of intuitiveness )

Edited December 21, 2013 by Mor

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Growing up, I often saw first hand, or even found out about it the hard way, that the guys dealing most damage in fights and brawls seldom were the strongest (strength). biggest (mass) or fastest (agility). 

 

Pretty much this. The outcome of a fight is usually not decided by the participants' strength, or intellect; sometimes even skill matters little. It usually comes down to a combination of willingness to cause real harm, and the ability to keep on going after getting hit a lot. I'd say these are even more important than strength or intellect; still, even the most rabid simulationists haven't been arguing for including Resolve in both damage and stamina. 

In short: forget already that damn "it doesn't make sense" argument; it's impossible to do a perfect simulation, and even if it approaches that level, it wouldn't be fun, or balanced.

 

Another important point: aside from a select few, it's usually impossible to actually think in a fight. The adrenaline and the speed things are happening at prevents those who aren't accustomed to it (and still hinders those who are), while more experienced fighters usually rely too much on ingrained reflexes to think too much about what they are going to do next. So, no, Intellect doesn't increase damage because you know where and how to hit, and you can turn this into an advantage during the fight; it increases damage because you've been able to use your practice time more effectively.

Edited December 21, 2013 by aluminiumtrioxid

[IndiraLightfoot]

aluminiumtrioxid: You sum it up very eloquently. Thank you!

 

Ingrained reflexes, instinctive ferocity and fearless badgering go a very long way in fights. I'd even go as far as to say it's often a deciding factor in hand-to-hand combat, pummelling, wrestling, etc. Well, when it comes to ranged weapons and ranged spells, the fighting game probably changes, though. There you need to think quick and be accurate in order to survive. Hehe, imagine if snipers were allowed for real in PE. All parties would just be killed, not knowing what hit them before the loading screen is even done. :D

[IndiraLightfoot]

Strength affects your Health and number of inventory slots.  Constitution affects Stamina.  Dexterity affects Accuracy.  Perception affects Critical Damage.  Intellect affects Damage and Healing.  Resolve affects Durations and AoE size.  We may slightly shift these, but this is what we will be working with in the foreseeable future.

 

Each defense (other than Deflection) is equally influenced by two stats.  Aside from level, the attributes that contribute to each defense are the primary determining factors of that defense.  Class (now) rarely has a large influence on a character's defenses.

 

Fortitude - Strength and Constitution

Reflexes - Dexterity and Perception

Willpower - Intellect and Resolve

 

Deflection is the exception to this.  While Fort/Ref/Will share roughly equal time in defending characters, Deflection is the most commonly-attacked defense.  It is not influenced by any attribute and is mostly determined by level and class.  Characters like fighters and paladins have great base Deflection.  Characters like priests and wizards do not.

 

Aluminiumtrioxid's post and this idea of Ferocity being a central aspect of doing damage in a fight makes me want to re-arrange Josh's attribute scheme a little. Here goes nothing:

 

I ditch Resolve.

Strength affects your Health and number of inventory slots.  Constitution affects Stamina.  Dexterity affects Accuracy.  Perception affects Critical Damage with ranged weapons and spells.  Ferocity affects close-combat Damage and Healing.  Intellect affects normal Damage with ranged weapons and spells, Durations and AoE size. 

 

Each defense (other than Deflection) is equally influenced by two stats.  Aside from level, the attributes that contribute to each defense are the primary determining factors of that defense.  Class (now) rarely has a large influence on a character's defenses.

 

Fortitude - Strength and Constitution

Reflexes - Dexterity and Perception

Willpower - Intellect and Ferocity

[Adhin]

Well I've been arguing (all be it no ones commented on any of it) to get rid of most of the names anyway except Resolve and Perception and rename them to better fit these 2. But I feel like arguing anyway so...intelligence 'in the  middle of a fight' would increase damage via pre-existing studied learning. Both from general learning, thinking on what to do 'when the time comes' and from reviewing and learning from your past fights. Which I generally agree is already represented by your LEVELING. That is the whole point of leveling really, is to show your overall experience and progress as a person. I don't think INT would ever represent 'in the moment' boosts, as that would be more of a perception thing, being able to notice something and react to it isn't really the area of intelligence.

 

I just wish I had other names to use for the other attributes besides Resolve and Perception since I don't feel like they match up with stuff like Str, Con, Dex or Int. They're all very concrete physical things (yeah even intelligence). They're also things that're A LOT harder to just 'get super good at' by concentrating. I mean think about it, I can't concentrate my muscles bigger or any of that nonsense.

 

Now, in the moment, when you really need to, you can focus and become more perceptive, you can gain a new resolve for completing your existing task (weather thats you know, not dying or whatever). I just think the other attributes should be named with the same kind of theme as those 2 things. And lets not bring in the whole adrenaline hulked out moms ripping car doors off hinges. That took no concentration and a bucket load of adrenaline... just sayin'.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Well I've been arguing (all be it no ones commented on any of it) to get rid of most of the names anyway except Resolve and Perception and rename them to better fit these 2. But I feel like arguing anyway so...intelligence 'in the  middle of a fight' would increase damage via pre-existing studied learning. Both from general learning, thinking on what to do 'when the time comes' and from reviewing and learning from your past fights. Which I generally agree is already represented by your LEVELING. That is the whole point of leveling really, is to show your overall experience and progress as a person. I don't think INT would ever represent 'in the moment' boosts, as that would be more of a perception thing, being able to notice something and react to it isn't really the area of intelligence.

 

I just wish I had other names to use for the other attributes besides Resolve and Perception since I don't feel like they match up with stuff like Str, Con, Dex or Int. They're all very concrete physical things (yeah even intelligence). They're also things that're A LOT harder to just 'get super good at' by concentrating. I mean think about it, I can't concentrate my muscles bigger or any of that nonsense.

 

Now, in the moment, when you really need to, you can focus and become more perceptive, you can gain a new resolve for completing your existing task (weather thats you know, not dying or whatever). I just think the other attributes should be named with the same kind of theme as those 2 things. And lets not bring in the whole adrenaline hulked out moms ripping car doors off hinges. That took no concentration and a bucket load of adrenaline... just sayin'.

 

I wonder why this urgent need for renaming the attributes? If names work, they should stay IMHO.

And Ferocity as discussed by Aluminiumtrioxid and me has very little to do with those stories of some old geezer lifting a car to save his grandson in a very short burst of adrenaline rush. They'll have a hard time repeating the feat, for starters.

Edited December 21, 2013 by IndiraLightfoot

[PrimeJunta]

Going over this whole thing again, I honestly think the only fly in the ointment is the naming. If "Intellect" was renamed to something that more obviously suggested its damage-enhancing function, that would go away. (Ferocity?)

 

I also wouldn't object to Strength -> Body, or something else that defused the D&D-born assumption that it does enhance damage.

 

The mechanics themselves sound great, and I don't think any of the changes suggested here (including mine) are material improvements.

 

Edit: As stated before, I don't care all that much about the names though. Leaving them as-is will impact my enjoyment of the game not at all.

Edited December 21, 2013 by PrimeJunta

[curryinahurry]

 

^  I think the key with your "effective strength" paraphrase is that it implies strength as an active attribute associated with work.  Making it a passive attribute associated with a health resource works against most people's common sense expectations.

Yes, absolutely.

So, as you suggested, making strength a skill (which can add (%?) melee damage perhaps), would be a solution here.  (And then renaming both strength and intellect to be more intuitive).

If it were reasonable and balanced then you could have 'strength','great strength' and 'heroic strength' as progressive skills.

 

 

I like the concept of tiers.  For damage it could be +1 (or 2%) for every 3 points invested and new tiers at every 6 points.  The cap would be 3 Tiers and about +8-10% damage (that might be too much?).  

 

Tiers could provide the movement bonus and have synergy with certain modes or abilities.  this could be offset by certain penalties like a slower rate of stamina regeneration or penalties to Psyche (the 'roid rage factor) as a balancing mechanism.

Edited December 21, 2013 by curryinahurry

[Ganrich]

@Lephys I was being a bit microscopic, but a 6 year old vs a 7 foot old man is a bit too wide a gap to be a fair comparison. So I went the extra mile.

 

On the note of strength increasing attack speed: I like it. A stronger person would definitely be capable of stopping a mace's momentum after a hearty swing, and getting it moving in the opposite direction more efficiently. This would increase the quickness of his attacks potentially. My one fear is that since PE is being designed for RTwP combat it might have some adverse effects, but I am sure things like "haste" are in the game so it shouldn't be an issue.

 

I would go a step further and say Strength would make more sense governing stamina instead of health. So strength would make more sense increasing stamina and inventory space while constitution would cover health. A strong person won't tire out when swinging his/her weapon as quickly as a less strong person, and thus they have greater stamina. I don't know if that makes Constitution even more susceptible to being a dump stat though.

 

I wouldn't even be against both Strength and intellect both giving Damage bonus', but perhaps canceling one another out and not stacking after a point. Using 3.5 rules strapped to PE abilities as an example: a character with 18 str has a +4 to damage, and in PE a character with 18 int has a +4 to damage, but someone specced in 18 in both only gets +4-6 (instead of the logical + 8 ) in damage because the abilities overlap their bonus' and/or suffer diminishing returns. This may be too convoluted in the end though.

 

Nomenclature: the one issue I see is if we design sensible names for the attributes in combat that they might lose their meaning in non-combat checks. Body IMHO would still work if you need to bash down a door if you replace Strength with it. Ferocity won't understand how a gun functions in a dialogue, thus not giving you a dialogue option for showing understanding, when you replace intellect. Although from a combat standpoint it is an awesome name. So we have to have names that work in combat and non-combat.

 

Body

Constitution

Dexterity

Perception

Expertise (replacing intellect perhaps)

Resolve

 

^ this possibly solves the issues from a combat and non-combat perspective. Expertise can still function like intellect in out of combat scenarios and still make sense, and the same with Body replacing strength. Out of combat issues might be resolved with skills instead of directly from attributes... I can't remember if they have said, butt these attributes will still govern and enhance those skills so they need to make sense in both situations.

 

I love resolve please don't change it. . I have lived too long in a "charisma isn't worth it" world with my favorite classes being charisma based: bard, warlock, pally, sorcerer. Resolve was my favorite attribute announced.

Edited December 21, 2013 by Ganrich

[Elerond]

As target is go system where there is attribute that tells character's health and ability to carry things, character ability withstand hits and other short term effects, character speed and ability coordinate her or his movements, character ability see things like weaknesses in other characters defense, armor or build, character ability to learn and do quick (hopeful good) decisions and character's ability control his or her powers.

 

I would go with following names for said combat bonuses:

 

Attributes that tell how well character's body is build (Fortitude)

Fitness - health and ability carry things

Endurance - stamina

 

Attributes that tell how well character can see and react to things (Reflex)

Dexterity - accuracy 

Perception - critical damage

 

Attributes that tell character can use her or his mental faculties (Willpower)

Acumen - damage and healing bonuses

Resolve - effect durations and AoE sizes 

 

I would go with fitness because people can (probably) comprehend that it means character's physical prowess and it don't rise same sort of mental images of muscle mass like strength, might or power will. I would use endurance instead of constitute as it don't have same sort association with character's health or hit points as constitute does, because of it common use describe that in other RPGs. And I would use acumen instead of intellect or intelligence as it tells more how well character can but his or her knowledge in use than character's overall mental capacity and so it would fit better with resolve and work better abstraction for damage and healing bonuses than what intellect or intelligence would do. 

[IndiraLightfoot]

I think both Strength and Ferocity would need to be in. Sadly, I can't see Expertise be a good attribute in this context. And I'd be darned if Intellect is something dealing damage in combat and making you heal up. To put it bluntly, it's just plain bizarre!

 

Also, to me, Intellect and Intelligence, is not exactly the same thing. I think I prefer Intellect in this case. Turing had a great intellect, but Ghandi had a great intelligence. Like it says on the Wikipedia: "Intellect is considered to be related to "facts" in contrast to intelligence concerning "feelings".Intellect refers to the cognition and rational mental processes gained through external input rather than internal." Regardless, neither Alan Turing nor Mahatma Ghandi would stand a chance against even junior league MMA-fighters, for instance. That's where Ferocity comes in. But Turing behind a rifle, with a bit of distance to the fighting, would at least do better.

 

Finally, I think Resolve is pretty much redundant, just like Charisma always has been in D&D, alongside Wisdom, pretty much. These are just my opinions, though, and I will merrily accept whatever attribute system PE gets in the end. Speaking of merry: Merry Christmas to you all!!!    

[Ganrich]

I should have waited another 10 minutes or so to post as Elerond's idea of Acumen is something I like.

 

Indira, Your distinction between intellect and intelligence is great, and I agree. However, that withstanding, I have found it equally Bizarre that intelligence hasn't helped combat in previous RPGs. Pen and paper or otherwise.

 

I definitely think increasing duration of effects and AoE radius makes resolve much less so redundant, but one person's trash...

 

Merry Christmas!

[aluminiumtrioxid]

As target is go system where there is attribute that tells character's health and ability to carry things, character ability withstand hits and other short term effects, character speed and ability coordinate her or his movements, character ability see things like weaknesses in other characters defense, armor or build, character ability to learn and do quick (hopeful good) decisions and character's ability control his or her powers.

 

I would go with following names for said combat bonuses:

 

Attributes that tell how well character's body is build (Fortitude)

Fitness - health and ability carry things

Endurance - stamina

 

Attributes that tell how well character can see and react to things (Reflex)

Dexterity - accuracy 

Perception - critical damage

 

Attributes that tell character can use her or his mental faculties (Willpower)

Acumen - damage and healing bonuses

Resolve - effect durations and AoE sizes 

 

 

Yeah, these seem sorta reasonable even when looking at them from an out-of-combat perspective.

[curryinahurry]

I like Acumen (or Acuity)...good word.  I prefer Vitality to Fitness as the word has similar connotations to the skill Athletics.  Vitality seems more like an innate attribute and could fit within the current system as it is being developed. Acumen likewise can slide in as an alternative to Intellect.

Edited December 21, 2013 by curryinahurry

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

 

Attributes that tell how well character's body is build (Fortitude)

Fitness - health and ability carry things

Endurance - stamina

 

Attributes that tell how well character can see and react to things (Reflex)

Dexterity - accuracy 

Perception - critical damage

 

Attributes that tell character can use her or his mental faculties (Willpower)

Acumen - damage and healing bonuses

Resolve - effect durations and AoE sizes 

 

 

 

Elerond, not bad at all!

 

 

I still feel Acumen leaks too much into Perception. Can Acumen/Acuity even replace Perception, or is that twisting it too far?

I'd still prefer Ferocity over Acumen (as it is a psychosomatic concept, as it were, and not very much a physical one - that makes Ferocity a great concept. And if Acumen would be moved to Perception, that would save Intellect/Intelligence somehow, if Ferocity takes its place. For I don't view that pair of attributes as accurately described as "use of mental faculties". I'd much rather see "tenacity" or something grouping them together, something both physical and mental. And if Resolve is to be kept, I think it's precisely because it captures some sort of mental doggedness/tenacity.

 

Also, like Curryinahurry, I prefer Vitality over Fitness (sounds like one of those body temples down town).

Edited December 21, 2013 by IndiraLightfoot

[Ganrich]

Yeah, I don't care for fitness. I wouldn't mind it in a game set in modern times, or in the future. Fitness would fit (no pun intended) in a modern day RPG, or even futuristic. It has a very mechanical vibe to it.

 

I still prefer Body, but Vitality is ok too.

 

I would say:

 

Body

Endurance (replacing con)

Dexterity

Perception

Acumen

Resolve

 

Although, I do agree with Indira that acumen does encroach on perception in some ways.

 

What about "Mind" as a replacement for intellect? It could encompass something like ferocity in mentality, while still being sensible in out of combat checks for intelligence. It's a little more all encompassing and vague, but still gives some understanding.

 

Body

Endurance

Dexterity

Perception

Mind

Resolve

 

We could, as someone suggested get a set of names that work in and out of combat and fit the "soul power" theme. Body and mind work from that standpoint, but many of the others may be subject to opinion. Spirit could replace resolve in name. Endurance, dexterity, and perception are arguable.

[Ganrich]

Food for thought based on my last post.  This is a set of replacement names that may possibly work in and out of combat and IMHO follow the Soul Power theme of Pillars of Eternity.

 

Strength (Body)

Constitution (Endurance)

Dexterity (Mastery)

Perception (Perception) ?

Intellect (Mind)

Resolve (Spirit)

 

Arguably, Dexterity is probably fine as is, but since it governs accuracy... it could also allow Mastery as a possibility.  I couldn't think of anything to substitute for Perception that doesn't drastically change what it would govern in out of combat scenarios.  The best I got was looking up synonyms, and I found Consciousness and although that fits in with the Soul Theme... I believe it is too ambiguous as to what it would do.  I don't know though.  Thoughts or suggestions?

[Mor]

@Elerond, Just the other page I said that it might be best to leave things as they are(to avoid making the game less intuitive to fans of the previous games, with alien terms which are just as vague/abstract/confusing) but your variant changed my mind, it is simple and common enough.

 

The only thing I am still not sure about is any variant of intelligence, I'd really want to know more on how its known benefits applies, what its use in conversations and if it has any bearing on anything else like skill points. Because right now it seem wrong. Also with all talk about strength of souls in PE, who knows maybe "intelligence" connected to it somehow.

[Answermancer]

Body

Constitution

Dexterity

Perception

Expertise (replacing intellect perhaps)

Resolve

^ this possibly solves the issues from a combat and non-combat perspective. Expertise can still function like intellect in out of combat scenarios and still make sense, and the same with Body replacing strength.

I've read the whole thread and personally I think I like this most. I really like the functionality of assigned to each stat by Josh in his original explanation, but I think Intellect ends up feeling kind of odd and Strength as well.

 

As I was reading through I was going to suggest Expertise instead of Intellect, and I think this post by Ganrich works quite well with that name. I think Acumen might work too but IMO it is more ambiguous and unclear. I think Body does a decent job taking the place of strength and makes sense with the derived stats affected.

 

Also, this addresses the issue of the stats still making a lot of sense in out of combat checks, which was pointed out earlier and a lot of people in the thread have been ignoring, but I think is very important.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

If we have to change things, I'd prefer this:

 

Body: replaces strength, except it does nothing to intimidation, but represents physical attractiveness, too. Can help in displays of raw physical power, and seduction. This added utility might balance its generally perceived limited usefulness.

Endurance: replaces Con. It can help in the cases where you need to withstand pain, hold your breath for a long time, fight poisons/diseases. I'd prefer if it was a useful ability outside of combat.

Dexterity: no change. Acting quickly and doing thief-y stuff in dialogues.

Acuity: replaces Per. Used both as Perception and Intelligence in dialogues, these are hard to separate anyways (well, to be more accurate, they've always had some overlap, and dialogue application usually depends on both simultaneously - if you're very intelligent, but don't really pay attention to the other person, you can fail just as easily as if you were perceptive, but didn't have the mental faculties to interpret the information correctly).

Ferocity: replaces Int. Represents a will to act, passion, fighting spirit - regardless of whether you're fighting to save someone's life [doctors need to be competitive to 'beat' illnesses, after all], or a more literal fight involving beating the other guy with sharp sticks. Out of combat, it helps in intimidation, and generally you have a raw, magnetic energy around you, which certain people might find attractive/convincing, but others don't really care about it/might even find off-putting. To use a totally bull**** analogue, "being alpha".

Resolve (or perhaps should be renamed to Composure): no change. Out of combat, entails composure, stoicity, strength of will, but not of passion; inner harmony. Charismatic options that lack the dangerous edge that needs to be lumped with Ferocity belong here, as does anything involving keeping a cool head and a straight face (including, but not limited to, lying - although complex lies might require some Acuity to initiate, but if you stumble, and make the other guy suspicious/they were suspicious to begin with, Resolve helps to save your ass).

 

Now that I think about it, I even prefer this to the original. Thanks everybody for their contributions

Edited December 22, 2013 by aluminiumtrioxid

[IndiraLightfoot]

Pressing "you like this" was a severe understatement. In fact, it's so good, I want to play a game with exactly these attributes now! I reckon you nailed it, Aluminiumtrioxid.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Pressing "you like this" was a severe understatement. In fact, it's so good, I want to play a game with exactly these attributes now! I reckon you nailed it, Aluminiumtrioxid.

 

Thank you, even though my actual contributions were very small (putting the ideas floating around into a coherent whole with the noncombat applications sorted out)

 

On a second thought, in this version, Resolve should definitely be renamed to Composure.

 

I'm very curious about what do the others think about it. Also, it would be really nice to hear Sawyer's opinion, but let's not get greedy.

 

It definitely has some downsides: even though the attribute names better correspond to what they actually do, it's even less intuitive than the original version. Also, if the dialogues/noncombat screen thingies were written in a way that lets every attribute get nearly the same amount of spotlight (a daunting task; unlikely, but not impossible), splitting the benefits of Resolve three ways (seduction to Body, seduction/ intimidation /holding passionate speeches to Ferocity and lying/impressing someone by being unfazed to Composure) while lumping Perception and Intelligence together might cause balance issues. (I'm not particularly worried about the latter, there were many cases in FNV and KotOR 2 where having Intelligence and Perception, or Wisdom, Intelligence and Awareness simultaneously proved to be redundant.)

Edited December 22, 2013 by aluminiumtrioxid

[ItinerantNomad]

Since everyone is coming up with their own suggestions, I thought I'd chime in. I like the six attribute system as I think it can be quite elegant. Currently, of the six attributes, four deal with the physical aspects of the character. I would propose three categories for the attributes: mind, body, soul.

 

Body

Vitality - the constitution and strength of one's body. Effects HEALTH and DMG WITH WIELDED ITEMS (right click damage).

Fitness - the dexterity, speed, nimbleness of one's body. Effects STAMINA and ATTACK SPEED %REDUCTION.

 

Mind

Creativity - the ability to think of innovative solutions to problems. Effects ACCURACY and INVENTORY SLOTS.

Intuition - the innate understanding of how things work. Effects DMG WITH ABILITIES/MAGIC (not including the pew pew damage of mages)

 

Soul

Resolve - strength of character, determination, etc. Effects AOE and DURATIONS.

License - will of the soul, power to control the wildness within or to access the wildness within. Effects CRITICAL DMG, DT PENETRATION%

 

Defenses would be as such.

Deflection as before.

Fortitude is vitality and resolve.

Reflexes is fitness and intuition.

Willpower is creativity and license.

Edited December 22, 2013 by ItinerantNomad

[jamoecw]

 

So there's dexterity, which is flexibility, kinesthesia, reactions, and twitch muscles.  Then there's constitution, which is general health, but some how otherwise unrelated.  And all of these are unrelated to strength, which is a general catchall for burliness.

Didn't even think of that. Scratch that whole "Maybe Strength helps you steady your aim of a heavy crossbow" thing I said, as Dex already covers that. I'm glad you pointed that out.

 

twitch muscles don't steady your aim, what steadies your aim is the fact that you don't need to use as much of your muscles to use your weapon.  the more you use your muscles, the more little movements occur in your muscles.  in effect your muscles twitch, which is a function of your twitch muscles.  dexterity covers twitch muscles, but also the control over your muscles via your nervous system, which means being able to draw a better circle (or line), which is still different than holding an object steady.

@jamoecw:

 

I'm not sure what logic "this logic" is that has a problem, because I addressed the fact that strength doesn't directly translate into the damage of many a weapon type, including swords. However, it is still a factor. Especially with certain swords. I guarantee you a 7'4", 300lb muscle-mountain of a man who swings a claymore at you is going to do more damage (just from the sheer swing) than a 5'5", 150lb guy with just average strength swinging the same claymore in the same fashion.

 

It's not that a slicing weapon doesn't rely on force. It's simply that the force is applied along the blade rather than outward from it. It's not about strength being more significant in fueling the damage of, say, a katana swing, than accuracy/proper swinging. It's about it still being a factor. In fact, what I was thinking of would ideally involve different weapons/weapon-types bearing different Strength modifiers/multipliers, etc. A katana might have .5, while a maul might have 2. So, if your Strength Damage bonus is 10, the katana would only do 5 more damage, while the maul would do 20 more. Those are example numbers, to illustrate the relationship, and mean absolutely nothing outside of the context of an entire weapon/combat system with its own balance.

 

Anywho... Basically, we've already seen systems in which Strength is the only thing that determines damage. Then, we've seen systems in which only one stat determines damage for any given class, but that stat differs between classes (Rogues derive damage from Dex, Wizards from Int, Warriors from Str, etc.). Why not a system that represents each thing?

 

Accuracy/"dexterity" is already represented by the attack roll, mostly. If you happen to roll really high, you hit your foe in the eye or the spot between their armor or something, and this is represented by a critical. So, basically, the "where exactly did this hit" is represented, which is what I mean by accuracy. And even more so in PoE, because you have full misses, grazes, regular hits, AND criticals. So, the more accurate you are, consistently, the more consistently you score what amounts to "damage bonuses."

 

Then, now, you've got Intellect modifying your damage. Just generally being smarter and therefore aiming more intelligently (and not necessarily more skillfully, as with Dexterity/accuracy), and thus consistently producing more effective blows/strikes, aka more damage. Another damage bonus.

 

So, why not force? If something strikes you on the helmet, instead of the eye socket, but strikes you 10-times more powerfully than usual, would it not produce greater damage? For every action there is an equal-yet-opposite re-action, is there not? In other words, hitting you between armor segments instead of right on an armor plate, with the thrust of a sword, is going to be more effective, regardless of how much force there is. But, then, hitting you between armor segments with even more force is going to be even MORE effective than hitting you there with far less force.

a big burly man with 4 times the strength will have an impact force ~40% greater than the weaker person, not 4 times.  this is all assuming that all that matters is applied force, not type of muscles being used, or wind resistance, or the fact that as you press the weapon into something the resistance will increase.

 

that last part is pretty important.  a katana deals damage based on the weapon moving through an object (cutting it), the mace by transferring the force of impact (which isn't exactly true).  so if the width katana is double the width of its impact zone (the impact zone is actually far less) that means that the ~40% better impact force translates to ~10% more damage potential (ability to cut) by force alone.  so if a super lightweight katana that takes 6 strength to use is used by an 18 strength character they would get a 10% damage bonus, which is to say it does make a difference, just not a worthwhile one.

 

the mace (assuming transfer of force for damage) distributes its force across the area of the armour.  so ~40% extra force transferred from a 4 square inch area (way oversized) to a 12 square inch area (way undersized), results in a ~1.6% increase in force.  even worth less than the katana.

 

now if one were to be smart and hit say an eye socket, not only is the resistance vastly less than steel, but the organs hit are much more vital than muscle and bone.  thus instead of dealing with a fraction of 1 (100% is 1) for a bonus, you end up with double digit multipliers at the very least.  if you have 4 times the strength i would recommend using a weapon 4 times the weight, sense that will make a bigger difference (but still not nearly the same as hitting good spots).

 

strength as a damage booster is intuitive, but far from realistic.