Knowing there's a trap vs. rolling there's a trap

[Quetzalcoatl]

I'm pretty sure bashing chests in NWN 2 resulted in some of the items in it being damaged, which was actually a nifty idea. Although using AoE spells on enemies only to find out I had accidentally damaged nearby chests was incredibly annoying. I did like the way the detect trap skill was both passive and active.

[neo6874]

Yeah, the destroy-able stuff was what ended up causing me to turn off D&D hardcore mode ... money's hard enough to come by at low levels that the 3 shortswords and leather armor I can loot out of the chests behind BBEG are actually worth it... 

[Silent Winter]

The thing with the NWN2 OC for me was that, although I wanted a rogue in my party, it kept forcing you to take 'NPC-flavour of the month' with you so you HAD to drop somebody.  Therefore the rogue (Neeshka not being very good in combat) was the one who was always dropped out.  (Probably helped that my ranger PC could at least find traps and had the DEX to avoid damage from most of them).

 

For PE, I'd like some traps that are worth taking the time to avoid (lethal or near-enough) rather than the 'ok, I'll take the hit' , and other valuable rogue skills not going to waste (use the 'chime of opening' for opening chests, etc).

 

Of course, you should be able to get by without a thief but it should be a different experience than having one.

[neo6874]

yeah, same -- I just ended up rolling a thief because annoying party members.

[Karkarov]

Yeah I didn't really think this was a big deal until I started playing BG2 again.  Holy crap that system they use in BG is total garbage!  I have had moments where I remember from when I played it before "yeah that was trapped" so I send my thief with 95% chance to find traps.... 95%!!!!!  Not only does it take like 10-15 seconds, assuming they even find it, but I have had multiple times where they found nothing and I was forced to reload due to a character death/lost exp due to no disarm.  It isn't like 1 out of 10 traps either... I had one room yesterday with three traps in it that after 5 minutes of trying to get her to detect traps I KNEW was there at 95% I finally had to have someone slot of the find traps spell.  It is just idiotic and a waste of time.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I agree with Karkarov. I'm currently playing BGT, and Imoen has over 100 in find traps, yet manages to miss those that are less than 5 feet from her after waiting for ten seconds. PE should implement a superior system than that garbage.

[IndiraLightfoot]

I mean, the idea of finding traps is pretty neat, but when it stops being fun and the system is just plain cruel. It has to be chucked in the bin. I really hope there is a smoother and more automated way to do this. They do plan to have everyone having these skills, so imagine swapping a character, and then you have to be constantly bothered about this trap-checking hell. It would be such a pain.

[Lephys]

What if there was an intermediate stage? You know, "You're not really a pro at trap-finding, but you're being cautious enough to notice evidence of traps, so you can't actually find/disarm them, but you get a defense-roll bonus against any of those traps in this immediate area" kind of thing? That might be neat. "I know there's a trap here, but I'm not really sure where it is, exactly." *shrug*

 

Or something of that nature.

[Osvir]

I'm hoping that there will be tell-tale signs that a trap is in vicinity. The only IE game I remember doing it was Baldur's Gate I--particularly in Durlag's Tower. A scortch-mark on the floor, or a skeletal corpse collapsed in an otherwise ordinary cooridoor, etc. While I understand this would only be pertinent in some long abandoned dungeon, I felt they were excellent contextual clues for an observant player.

I love the idea, but there should also be places where there are just fancy corridors with a little dust maybe, just as deadly as the other levels. Meaning, no one else has gone before. Lower levels of Od Nua should have some of this. Meaning that no one else has ever ventured that deep into it.

 

Imagine, going deeper and deeper, corpses become thinner and thinner, and there, you enter the halls of the depth, where there are no corpses or splatter clues. Perhaps making traps more dynamic and time controlled, slower execution could remove some of that "50/50" chance? I want some traps that are "non-detectable" and they get the "encounter"-treatment, in a way. A poison trap might bubble a little before beginning to leak and then ooze in a moisty green mist. But a quick thinker with a Wizard in their party might have some tricks up his sleeve to avert it.

 

Or a "click" sound for a loading harpoon arrow aimed at your clumsy Fighter, but again, a quick thinker might enter some defensive mode and gaining bonus defense (Maybe "Footman Shield" stance or something as well), and can avert more damage from the trap sprung.

 

The idea: Handle some traps like encounters, "non-detectable" and you have to use skills and combat abilities to avert it in a non-combat kind of way. A simple example: Trap sprung: Arrow is fired from location. Pause. Activate ability. Unpause. Take less damage. Fireball trap? Ice Shield Spell? Some tactical spartan formation?

 

I think, in Baldur's Gate, traps are kind of mundane in that way. It's so very instant and little to do about it when a trap is sprung, save for some very minor movements. It'd be interesting to see if you could get more time to do urgent decisions. So that you could Wild Rush your Barbarian into the trap's trajectory path and in that way also save your mid-health Cipher. Or more trickier, a frost trap that creeps on the ground and accelerating, a torch or fire spells to slow it down or remove. Some magical and permanent traps until taken down. Not just "BOOM BIAt.... MAN!", but giving the Player some moves for Indiana Jones trap dodging.

[Lephys]

I like that general idea, Osvir. There should be 2 ranges, really:

 

- The difficulty of trap-finding/identification based on perceivable information available (perception check, for example), AND

- The difficulty of identifying and pinpointing traps for avoidance/disarming, based on knowledge/skill

 

Basically, a nublet might wander down a nice, clean hallway and not notice the little notches in the wall that mean a certain trap. OR, he might have plenty of perception to notice them, but fail to "detect" the trap because he has absolutely no idea that that pattern of notches signifies a trap, and just thinks it's some wall-stone pattern/decoration.

 

Likewise, a professional Trappist (I made that up) might go down that clean hallway and EASILY spot those notches and know they're a given trap, and what kind of trap (basically the trap just gets hilighted and described for the player, like "ceiling spikes" as opposed to "wall spikes" or "dart trap at the end of the hallway that shoots straight at you so you can't really run past this like a wall-spike trap", etc., so that you can either avoid it or try to disarm it or whatever. Or, if you're in old, dusty Od Nua, where traps are still active but are coated in dust and cobwebs, it might be a much more significant Perception check to even be able to detect those traps, much less identify them.

 

I mean, maybe your character detects a pressure plate on the floor, but doesn't actually know where the trap itself is or what kind of trap it is, etc. In which case, you, the player, COULD possibly deduce where the trap is or what kind it is, but at that point you'd be guessing just like the character would be, not superceding the character's ability to detect things (as with "my character has 1 Perception and no trap knowledge, but I can see with my player eyes that there's a trap there in the hallway, so I'm just going to click 'disarm' and then click on that, or avoid it, etc").

Edited December 29, 2013 by Lephys

[Cultist]

99% of players will act like this:

[Lephys]

Better just take out traps altogether, then, eh?

[PIP-Clownboy]

Better just take out traps altogether, then, eh?

 

Pretty much the only way I can finish BG/BG2 again these days. 

 

And really, by taking them out it just makes the game a tad bit harder with less free xp and infinitely more enjoyable. 

[Somna]

There's always (summoned) minions.

[Lephys]

And really, by taking them out it just makes the game a tad bit harder with less free xp and infinitely more enjoyable.

... Unless disabling traps doesn't provide free XP. And infinitely? Really? How ever did you even bring yourself to play a game with traps in it, if traps made it infinitely less enjoyable? You'd think that would make it the absolute least enjoyable game ever. Or, you know... at least tied in last place with every other trap-bearing game there is.

 

I'm sure this will be meaningless, but I'll say it anyway:

 

Just saying "to hell with traps" because other games could've improved upon the system isn't nearly as constructive as saying "How about we look at what those games did wrong, and better consider how to do traps right?". I dunno about you, but I'm not particularly enthusiastic about limiting PoE to only whatever other games have already succeeded at.

 

If we gave up on everything anyone ever failed at, we'd all just be playing Pong 2014 now, and there'd be no gaming industry.

[Yonjuro]

There's always (summoned) minions.

 

Well, speaking of summoned minions, and

 

....

Just saying "to hell with traps" because other games could've improved upon the system isn't nearly as constructive as saying "How about we look at what those games did wrong, and better consider how to do traps right?". I dunno about you, but I'm not particularly enthusiastic about limiting PoE to only whatever other games have already succeeded at.

....

 

things that need improvement:

 

In BG2 (and Tutu) summoned minions didn't (usually) trigger traps (I think there were a few exceptions). It was probably for balance reasons - one of the main reasons for including a thief would have evaporated. Still, that's pretty broken. I don't know if that's relevant to PoE because it sounds like there won't be many summons, but if there are, I would expect them to trigger traps. 

[neo6874]

If we gave up on everything anyone ever failed at, we'd all just be playing Pong 2014 now, and there'd be no gaming industry.

Still a better game than DA:O

[Lephys]

Still a better game than DA:O

That's hitting below the belt.

[Hassat Hunter]

Yeah, the "XP per opened door and disabled trap" really was a bad design decision, same for KOTOR2. Makes all other strategies (like above mentioned use summoned minions to trigger them) less useful. So glad PoE wont do that silly stuff and you can just do whatever the heck you want to get around them, rather than getting pretty much pushed into one solution due to the XP carrot...

[PIP-Clownboy]

 

And really, by taking them out it just makes the game a tad bit harder with less free xp and infinitely more enjoyable.

... Unless disabling traps doesn't provide free XP. And infinitely? Really? How ever did you even bring yourself to play a game with traps in it, if traps made it infinitely less enjoyable? You'd think that would make it the absolute least enjoyable game ever. Or, you know... at least tied in last place with every other trap-bearing game there is.

 

.

 

 

I was talking about the BG series specifically where you spend more game time searching for traps than actually fighting things. It's quite a grating system when you reflect on how stupid it is.. but I never implied PE should get rid of traps. 

[Lephys]

I was talking about the BG series specifically where you spend more game time searching for traps than actually fighting things. It's quite a grating system when you reflect on how stupid it is.. but I never implied PE should get rid of traps.

My mistake. It was suggested that players will just quicksave, then run down the hallway to see if there are traps, so my response was, sarcastically, that we should just not even put traps in the game. So, I was talking about PoE. When you responded, you commented on BG/BG2 being pretty bad about traps, but then you talked specifically about "taking them out" and its effects, starting with "And really," so I thought you were just commenting on BG/BG2, then jumping back to the hypothetical existence of traps in PoE.

 

Also, I was mostly being silly about the "infinitely" bit. Sorry about that. I get carried away sometimes. I meant no harm. I share your sentiments regarding those tedious, free-XP trap systems.

[milczyciel]

Being close to half blind I can ROLL with only one option here

 

I'm playing FNV atm and man those mines and spring traps are pissing me off. My current char has 8 PE but very low traps skill, and yet the only problem so far are not his failed attempts to disarm a trap, but ME, the player, failing to notice the damn thing before it clicks, or sprang or starts beeping and subsequently blows his face off (I have a very low EN because INT above all).

That's not funny, especially when I got immersed to much and forget to make a quicksave...

Not to mention that I'm forced to use wiki while snooping around, if only to find more than most obviously hidden (containers, boxes) and visible loot.

Because the bloody sniper/scavenger I'm roleplaying, has his wonderful eyes focused solely on V.A.T.S. and radar :/

[Tamerlane]

The greatest threat a trap in one of the modern Fallout games can pose is not blowing up/going off on you, but distracting you from the two other traps right in front of it.

[milczyciel]

The greatest threat a trap in one of the modern Fallout games can pose is not blowing up/going off on you, but distracting you from the two other traps right in front of it.

 

Dunno, maybe. In my case I'm lucky if I'll end up crippled.

But hey, it's my fault that I created low END, low STR, small framed scout right? Doesn't matter that he -assumably- should be able to spot a danger long before it goes off in his face.

Seriously, it's not that unusual for me, to set off the mine that was lying in a plain field without any scrubs to cover it... Because that's how good my sight is. Now imagine trip-wired explosives and (less dangerous but still annoying) rigged shotguns. Those are 99% times F9 triggers for me.

 

All I'm saying is, the V.A.T.S. is here so I can imagine coding an active* skill (just like sneaking), that makes my char go into quasi-VATS state after he successfully passing background-working perception/explosives based check, highlighting the spotted trap.

After all, if my char is more charismatic, smarter and slick/suave than me (and yes he is) then the game provides me with additional dialog lines or skill checks to choose, not with a dialog box in which I have to write a correct answer/question, right?

So why punishing me for being less perceptive than a char I'm trying to play and not that I ultimately am?

 

Thus given the choice I'll go with BG-esque trap detection. At least I can see them and push the spacebar (or set it in options as a pause trigger) while my PC happily stomps towards it

 

* so those who don't care wouldn't be punished instead of me

[Lephys]

The greatest threat a trap in one of the modern Fallout games can pose is not blowing up/going off on you, but distracting you from the two other traps right in front of it.

True that. I remember that one building/room, in Ranger Station Charlie or whatever (I think?) in which there's a friggin' body lying on top of a grenade. If you move the body, it explodes. It's almost IMPOSSIBLE to notice, because you can't really see it until you at least move the body a little bit.

 

Such a clever trap... . I'm almost not even mad about my inability to notice it. I give the devs a "touche," there.

 

I definitely believe in a "one or the other" approach, though. What I mean is, if your character has a trap-detecting skill, then make them completely undetectable to the player's eye, and only detectable to the character's. Then, when the character DOES detect a trap, make it BLATANTLY OBVIOUS where that trap is to the player. One or the other.

 

Also, I get the use of the "find it with your own eyes" approach in FO3 and FO:NV, since they're first-person (OR optional 3rd-person, I suppose) games. I was mainly just talking about top-down IE-style games in my analysis above. I mean, you COULD use "just find 'em with your eyes" in PoE, for example, but then I'd say there's no point in your character being able to point them out to you. It's redundant at that point. It's just a skill of convenience, then, and not necessity or definite benefit.

Edited January 9, 2014 by Lephys