Project Eternity to use a "Dispositions" morality system similar to Torment: Tides of Numenera's Tides

[Wombat]

Means, it functionally similar to the old morality slider (Good/Evil) in the way it constantly checks the responses of the PC although it is not calculated two-dimensionally or +/- and the NPCs have more various reactions to it.

 

Means, it is functionaly similar to the old morality slider (Good/Evil) in the way it constantly checks the repsonse of the PC alhouth it is not calculated two-dimentionaly or +/- of a single value and that the NPCs have more various reactions to it.

 

(The edit timlimit was alredy gone so I tried to clarify it.  Hope it is clear now.)

[Gfted1]

 

 

if you are talking to a scientist and give a clever line, he will think you are smart. if you talk to an idiot and give him a clever line, he will think you make fun of him. this will change what this particular npc thinks of you. keep giving clever answers to scholars and the word will go around that you are smart. do the same to idiots and you will be *known* as a jerk. a pretty logical system and not unidimantional like a +/- numerical slider

Link?

 

i dont have a link it is just the logical way to implement it. it's practically the same thing Bethesda wanted to do with their Radial AI that they never implemented

 

I see. Then there is some way to view the NPC's ability scores so the player can know they are dealing with a 18 Int genius instead of a 4 Int moron?

[Sabotin]

I think the characters will be written with these systems in mind. I guess the starting dialogues will be more neutral with the "flavored" stuff appearing deeper in the tree (or subsequent conversations), when you have somewhat of an idea about your interlocutor or when it's a more public display. For more extreme opinions there might be a backtrack option or something, too. There will be various descriptions in conversations, too, which might provide clues. Probably not every conversation will matter for this either. Anyway, correctly done it should feel relatively natural I guess.

 

I wonder if companions and other people close to the protagonist will be aware of these things, e.g. "You just don't know him! Deep down he's a good guy!" etc.

[teknoman2]

 

I see. Then there is some way to view the NPC's ability scores so the player can know they are dealing with a 18 Int genius instead of a 4 Int moron?

 

i suppose the dialog will be written in a way that you will get an idea who you are talking to before you come across the dialog option that has consequences, or you may have information about who he is before you speak to him

[Rabain]

I agree.  It is highly unlikely you will have a dialogue that spews out a page of information, makes you choose between giving the person you are talking to the "most powerful item in the land!" or not and then informs you the guy is a moron who can't tie his own shoelaces.

 

As with every conversation, you say something, they say something, you say something, they say something, someone makes a choice.  Smart people will talk intelligently "excelsior", morons will be morons "doh".  It is up to you to read the dialogue and try to interpret the other persons demeanour, just like you do in real life when you talk to people you don't really know.

[J.E. Sawyer]

The system is pretty straightforward.  Characters react to individual choices you make in the same way that they would in pretty much any other Obsidian game.  Whether you see a [Clever] tag in front of your reply before you select it or not, your expectation of how the character is going to respond is going to be based on your understanding of the character.  However they respond (positively, negatively, or something else), you just put a penny in the "Clever" jar.  If you keep selecting witty/sassy/sarcastic responses or ways of dealing with people, their responses are all going to be based on the context and who they are as individual characters.

 

Where the actual rep comes into play is not in the replies available to you, but in how people talk to you or treat you as person, often outside of the context of you making those individual choices.  An NPC might meet you and invite you to a party based on your reputation for wit (even if you're not being particularly witty at the moment).  Another person might balk at involving you in a discussion of faith because they assume, based on your reputation, that you're a clown who can't take anything seriously.

[Malekith]

The system is pretty straightforward.  Characters react to individual choices you make in the same way that they would in pretty much any other Obsidian game.  Whether you see a [Clever] tag in front of your reply before you select it or not, your expectation of how the character is going to respond is going to be based on your understanding of the character.  However they respond (positively, negatively, or something else), you just put a penny in the "Clever" jar.  If you keep selecting witty/sassy/sarcastic responses or ways of dealing with people, their responses are all going to be based on the context and who they are as individual characters.

As i 'll play the game with tags hidden, i hope the writting to be flavorful enough that it shows if i'm clever,sarcastic or rude. I don't need it to be 100% in your face, but the undertone should be there.

[Auxilius]

I wanted to see OP's website but it tried to scam me.

Paying to use a forum... Is that a joke?

 

Anyway, it ties in with this old thread of mine (you're guaranteed to not have to pay to read it): http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/64539-manipulating-villains/. I thought at the time the system was too complicated. It's cool to see they worked their way around it. Lephys proved himself to be quite prophetic .

Edited November 15, 2013 by Auxilius

[Infinitron]

 

Baldur's Gate had companion rep?

Yes, like if your reputation got too good the evil members would grouse and vice versa if you got too evil of a reputation.

 

 

He said individual companion rep. That applies to all companions of a particular alignment.

 

Im curious how this system will play out. I see a lot of negative post about systems that use for example a radial wheel. When you pick an answer but then the game delivers it in a way you didn't intend. This system just seems to shift the "whoopsy-daisy" to the NPC. Now you can clearly see what you mean to say but you will have no idea how the NPC will interpret it. You may mean your Clever reply to be witty but they take it as sarcastic and you won't know that just happened.

 

Uh the difference is that the radial wheel doesn't show you the exact sentence you'll say. Are you telling me you object to any dialogue choice whatsoever because you don't know how NPCs will react??

Edited November 15, 2013 by Infinitron

[Infinitron]

The system is pretty straightforward.  Characters react to individual choices you make in the same way that they would in pretty much any other Obsidian game.  Whether you see a [Clever] tag in front of your reply before you select it or not, your expectation of how the character is going to respond is going to be based on your understanding of the character.  However they respond (positively, negatively, or something else), you just put a penny in the "Clever" jar.  If you keep selecting witty/sassy/sarcastic responses or ways of dealing with people, their responses are all going to be based on the context and who they are as individual characters.

 

Where the actual rep comes into play is not in the replies available to you, but in how people talk to you or treat you as person, often outside of the context of you making those individual choices.  An NPC might meet you and invite you to a party based on your reputation for wit (even if you're not being particularly witty at the moment).  Another person might balk at involving you in a discussion of faith because they assume, based on your reputation, that you're a clown who can't take anything seriously.

 

Are dialogue choices the only thing that "puts pennies in jars", or can other actions you perform do that as well?

[Gfted1]

Uh the difference is that the radial wheel doesn't show you the exact sentence you'll say. Are you telling me you object to any dialogue choice whatsoever because you don't know how NPCs will react??

Comprehension is a weak point I see. Sure, that's what Im saying.

[J.E. Sawyer]

Other actions can as well, but it's rare because emotional intent/motive is much more difficult to determine.  Browbeating someone and being pointedly malicious to them for no gain may earn you Cruel rep.  If you just walk up to the dude and murder him, it's more likely to increase your negative rep for whatever region/faction he's connected to.

[SunBroSolaire]

 

 

Baldur's Gate had companion rep?

Yes, like if your reputation got too good the evil members would grouse and vice versa if you got too evil of a reputation.

 

 

He said individual companion rep. That applies to all companions of a particular alignment.

Well, I guess it was just for romances in the BG games, but yeah, I mean will companions have individual reputation scores for the PC (Alpha Protocol style), or do they base their opinions on your relationships with factions and general disposition (New Vegas style)? I don't have a strong preference, I'm just really curious to know more about what companions.

[teknoman2]

 

Uh the difference is that the radial wheel doesn't show you the exact sentence you'll say. Are you telling me you object to any dialogue choice whatsoever because you don't know how NPCs will react??

Comprehension is a weak point I see. Sure, that's what Im saying.

 

the problem with the answer wheel is

the npc tells you something

1. that's ok

2. seriously?

3. ask me if i care

you espect them to mean

1. I know the feeling bro, dont worry it will get better.

2. Are you telling me the truth? I did not expect something like that to happen, tell me more

3. Go kill yourself and spare me your whining you fool

they often mean

1. Get over it already you overgrown baby

2. I see, and you expect me to believe that bull?

3. That's too bad... here, cry on my shoulder

and you have no idea, so you choose the compasionate looking answer and end up being the jerk

[Gfted1]

the problem with the answer wheel is

the npc tells you something

1. that's ok

2. seriously?

3. ask me if i care

you espect them to mean

1. I know the feeling bro, dont worry it will get better.

2. Are you telling me the truth? I did not expect something like that to happen, tell me more

3. Go kill yourself and spare me your whining you fool

they often mean

1. Get over it already you overgrown baby

2. I see, and you expect me to believe that bull?

3. That's too bad... here, cry on my shoulder

and you have no idea, so you choose the compasionate looking answer and end up being the jerk

Agreed. That's why I posted this:

 

I see a lot of negative post about systems that use for example a radial wheel. When you pick an answer but then the game delivers it in a way you didn't intend.

[Tamerlane]

I'm curious about what the game's option menu is going to look like now. If you don't use Expert Mode, it sounds like there'll be a beautiful, giant, ****-off wall of toggles.

I wanted to see OP's website but it tried to scam me.

Paying to use a forum... Is that a joke?

It's like a tax on the low and craven. That $10 would be with ~$7000 if they'd invested it in bitcoins instead.

[Lephys]

Blarg, I'm a little late with this, but I was going to say (at the cost of probably sounding nitpicky) that I don't think the point is so much that you have no idea how they'll interpret your words/actions/choices, but rather, that you have no idea how they'll react to them. Until, of course, you actually observe them and pay attention to their mood/mannerisms, etc.

 

In other words, you're not going to say "Hey, here, have a basket of puppies, because you deserve them," and have them somehow interpret that as "I hate you and do not wish for you to have pleasant things." Now, some people might say "Awesome! PUPPIES!!!!! ^_^! YOU'RE THE BEST!", and some people might say "That's very kind of you, but I'm actually quite allergic to dogs. Now I'm very frustrated that you just stuck a basket of puppies in my face, even though you had good intentions."

 

Not the best example, because being allergic to puppies isn't going to be a disposition, I'm sure... but, the point is, they're not misinterpreting your intentions. It's just that... people's reactions to things are often based on multiple factors, and they don't always stem from your intentions. People don't have to get your intentions wrong to react badly to something. And there's not really JUST good and bad reactions. There are different reactions.

 

If you have a knack for being cruel, someone might be extra helpful to you (which they wouldn't be if they weren't afraid of you, in this example instance), but, they might actually lie about some things for fear that the truth would anger you and invoke your cruelty. So, is it a good reaction, or a bad one? Well, they're going out of their way to help you, so that's good. But, you're getting some false information, so that's bad. Maybe those same particular people might help you AND tell you the truth if you're notoriously kind, instead. Of course, other factors involved with their decision to help you might be faction rep, etc, and not just "oh, he's super kind, let's help him!"

[J.E. Sawyer]

Here's the difference between playing with the rep tags on and off.

 

[benevolent] "You seem to have learned your lesson. There's no need to involve the guards. Just don't do it again."

 

vs.

 

"You seem to have learned your lesson. There's no need to involve the guards. Just don't do it again."

 

As in the IE games, what you pick is exactly what your character says/does.

[Wombat]

Assuming there is individual rep, is that possible to make a companion NPC work against his/her faction (even if temporarily) if the protagonist had put enough points in individual rep jar?  I'm curious since I have been interested in this system since the Black Hound.

[SophosTheWise]

Here's the difference between playing with the rep tags on and off.

 

[benevolent] "You seem to have learned your lesson. There's need to involve the guards. Just don't do it again."

 

vs.

 

"You seem to have learned your lesson. There's need to involve the guards. Just don't do it again."

 

As in the IE games, what you pick is exactly what your character says/does.

 

And how does it work with skill tags? 

I remember being confused by Baldur's Gate I where you want to get into the bandit camp and you can say something like "Let me join you!" So I basically thought that my character was sincere and not lying. 

 

Thus, how about:

 

"Let me join you!" [Lie]

"Let me join you!" [Truth]

[mcmanusaur]

Seems quite straightforward and I'm a bit confused why people have so many questions about it...

[Wombat]

I cannnot speak for other people but, in this thread, there is no explanation on individual NPC/companion rep like Knight of Old Republic 2 and Neverwinter Nights 2 OC, Mask of the Betrayer and Alpha Protocol.  In FNV, even companion NPCs reacted to faction rep and Karma.  So, naturally, I (and, seemingly, SunBroSolaire) asked if there is individual NPC rep or not, alongside with the location/faction rep and the disposition rep, which are explained in this thread, to personalize the experience further.  Although Bioware-ish NPC romance is not my cup of tea, romance rep is not mentioned, either.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

In other words, you're not going to say "Hey, here, have a basket of puppies, because you deserve them," and have them somehow interpret that as "I hate you and do not wish for you to have pleasant things." Now, some people might say "Awesome! PUPPIES!!!!! ^_^! YOU'RE THE BEST!", and some people might say "That's very kind of you, but I'm actually quite allergic to dogs. Now I'm very frustrated that you just stuck a basket of puppies in my face, even though you had good intentions."

 

Not the best example, because being allergic to puppies isn't going to be a disposition

 

I think a better example would be a guy who respects strength and dominance, and therefore reacts with contempt to your attempt at trying to buy his goodwill. Or a cautious one, who looks for the strings attached, and instantly becomes wary. And that's where the reputations come in: if you have high enough "benevolent" rep, the second guy will probably let his guard down more easily, while the first one will be just more convinced of your meekness. On the other hand, if you have a ****load of "cruel" rep, you'll probably get a more cautious response from the first guy, too.

[PrimeJunta]

 

Uh the difference is that the radial wheel doesn't show you the exact sentence you'll say. Are you telling me you object to any dialogue choice whatsoever because you don't know how NPCs will react??

Comprehension is a weak point I see. Sure, that's what Im saying.

 

 

Then what are you saying? Color me confused too. It seems to me that you're objecting to this system because you can't tell beforehand how the NPC's are going to react to what you're saying. If this is in fact not what you're saying, I'd very much appreciate a clarification of your position. And if it is what you're saying, I'd appreciate you explaining your reasoning because the position doesn't make a lick of sense to me. "Entirely predictable" doesn't sound like a lot of fun to me!

[teknoman2]

 

Here's the difference between playing with the rep tags on and off.

 

[benevolent] "You seem to have learned your lesson. There's need to involve the guards. Just don't do it again."

 

vs.

 

"You seem to have learned your lesson. There's need to involve the guards. Just don't do it again."

 

As in the IE games, what you pick is exactly what your character says/does.

 

And how does it work with skill tags? 

I remember being confused by Baldur's Gate I where you want to get into the bandit camp and you can say something like "Let me join you!" So I basically thought that my character was sincere and not lying. 

 

Thus, how about:

 

"Let me join you!" [Lie]

"Let me join you!" [Truth]

 

i dont think it matters if it is a lie or not. the result will be determined by what you do after you "join".

 

Let me join you!

 

you act like a proper bandit and go along with them, you get result A

you backstab them at the most opportune time, you get result B

you fail to be convincing as a bandit, you get result C

 

no matter what the reason behind joining, you asked to join them and you did, in order to get to the result you seek