Josh Sawyer GDC Next 10 Talk

[Sacred_Path]

@Sacred_Path: trying a bit too hard to be edgy, methinks.

In what world is it edgy to dislike PS:T ?

[J.E. Sawyer]

Why emphasize the reading part then?

 

The continuing trend in games has been an assumption by publishers and developers that players do not want to read.  As a rule, lines have become short to the point of being terse and often lack flavor and nuance because of it.

 

The slide that goes hand-in-hand with "Eternity is written for readers." is "Our choices are your choices... so who benefits?"  We assume that our players want to read, but we don't assume they want to read anything we put in front of them, so we need to think about the players' enjoyment of any given node or branch of dialogue.  Interactive stories aren't inherently fun.  Just putting a dialogue option in a conversation doesn't make the conversation inherently better.  When we give the player choices, we need to evaluate it through their eyes and ask, "How will players find enjoyment/satisfaction by selecting this option?"

[J.E. Sawyer]

 

""A lot of the people playing games are not good at them. That's okay. It's our job to help them." - Josh Sawyer, Obsidian #gdcnext"

 

My grandfather really enjoys fantasy CRPGs.  The early Wizardrys and Might & Magics; the Gold Box games; the IE games, etc.  He's not a stupid man, but the details of game rules systems are not a strongpoint.  I still have nightmares about looking over his party when he told me how impossible he was finding some of the late stages of Icewind Dale.  Several characters using weapons they weren't proficient with; a cleric with a WIS that limited him to 4th-level spells; carrying the wrong ammunition for his ranged weapons, etc.

 

I would very much like to give him a copy of Eternity, and I hope that the game would be a little less easy to screw up, mechanics-wise. 

 

 

This is really the sort of thing I mean.  I've seen many intelligent, enthusiastic people attempt to play AD&D games and become mired for reasons very, very similar to those experienced by your grandfather.  People who came into the IE games with an extensive knowledge of AD&D were at a big advantage because the IE games often don't give prominent feedback on a lot of these issues.

[Sacred_Path]

we don't assume they want to read anything we put in front of them

That's good enough for me.

 

 

As for allowing/ not allowing dialogue choices... it's like adding milk to mashed potatoes. The more hard [reading] elements, the more [choices] you need to add to make things... creamy.

 

 

Umm... hungry.

[JFSOCC]

Sure as long as it's still a game and not a novel. I like reading, but I do not need to go through 10 pages of exposition during a dialogue tree. Games are unique in that they can combine story telling techniques. Some things can be told through text, others it may be better to show through gameplay or environment art.

[SophosTheWise]

 

 

 

 

Lots of reading? BS. I turn to books for that.

 

I'm an avid reader and kind of an enthusiast when it comes to literature. Also, I'm not easily impressed by writing. It seems I would incline to agree. But the problem with your statement is, that it hinders development of good gaming narratives. If people in the beginning of games with stories would've said "Ah, shucks, I don't want stories in my game!" we would've never had, say, Dear Esther or Amnesia: A Machine For Pigs which were absolutely stellar in writing. They have to be the most literary games I've ever played and I loved them dearly.

 

"Reading" sounds unspecific and that irks me. It reminds me of verbose, everyone's-a-walking-encyclopedia-of-banalities Planescape.

 

 

That, on the other hand, is true. I wouldn't say Torment was full of banalities, at least not in the context of other computer and videogames. I think Torment introduced players to some interesting albeit not very deep philosophical questions, and I think those players were never in a "philosophy" target group. So there's that.

But I really hope we will not see "quality" writing in the vein of R.A. Salvatore.

 

Someone in the market square whining about trees for several pages worth of monologue is pretty banal IMO. Avoiding things like that is what seperates an accomplished writer/ team of writers from your average blogger.

 

 

I don't really remember that particular scenario, but I think it's important that not ever character is a wise wizard. I like characters who spout nonsense or banal ****.

Still, I think, especially for its time and in the context of video games, Torment was spectacularly good and surpassed basically every fantasy RPG which existed back then. 

PS:T has nothing on Dear Esther or Amnesia: AMFP, but it's still a very good game writing-wise. 

 

 

 

Ehhhh, I do at least expect something above Salvatore.

 

That's fairly much all multicellular lifeforms.

 

 

 

 

Oh God, yes. Salvatore is the ****ing worst. Seriously, how can anyone enjoy that? His stuff is boring to read, generic as hell and his language is weak to the point that I can see a high schooler being better than him. 

 

[Sacred_Path]

I don't really remember that particular scenario, but I think it's important that not ever character is a wise wizard. I like characters who spout nonsense or banal ****.

Still, I think, especially for its time and in the context of video games, Torment was spectacularly good and surpassed basically every fantasy RPG which existed back then. 

PS:T has nothing on Dear Esther or Amnesia: AMFP, but it's still a very good game writing-wise.

PS:T had a lot of crappy/ mediocre writing inbetween the good parts. That's what drags it down, like it would any piece of literature. That's why I'm saying: don't be verbose.

 

Of course, aforementioned events transpired a long time ago, and nowadays there's no juvenile need to prove how deep and thought-provoking a game they can put together. 

[J.E. Sawyer]

I'll be able to put the .pdf on my website in a few weeks.  I'm actually surprised more photos weren't taken at the event.  There was a lot of new artwork in the presentation (e.g. two companion portraits).

[Labadal]

Won't there be a public video of the presentation in the future?

[IndiraLightfoot]

While I have Josh attention, I'll sneakily wedge in a question of mine in another thread 4 days ago: How much thought and testing has gone into soloing PE. Is it even advisable? Sooner or later, I'm sure gonna try it.

[Nonek]

Personally I thought Mourns for Trees, just north of the Smouldering Corpse, was a very good method of reinforcing the central theme of ones beliefs affectings ones reality in Torment. That and involving the companions in the conversation, so that a new angle is shone on their personality. It was a nice little moment of character and detail building, which I personally thought served to enrich the Hive, and break from its prevailing grim tone.

 

Most of the Mebbeth quest arc was nicely written I thought, a touch blatant but an interesting spin on the usual formula nontheless.

[Sacred_Path]

Mourns for Trees

break from its prevailing grim tone.

 

does not compute

[Nonek]

You could give the chap a little hope if that way inclined, a little good deed in the midst of the larceny and laissez faire of that ward. Or not your decision, and all the better for being so.

[Sacred_Path]

Regarding the topic at hand... one of Planescape's flaws was the 'click all lines' thing. It's one thing that led to the feeling of verbosity. OTOH, IIRC, Arcanum was pretty strict about 'closing off' dialogue. Which way are you leaning with P:E?

Edited November 7, 2013 by Sacred_Path

[J.E. Sawyer]

While I have Josh attention, I'll sneakily wedge in a question of mine in another thread 4 days ago: How much thought and testing has gone into soloing PE. Is it even advisable? Sooner or later, I'm sure gonna try it.

 

We absolutely allow people to try it and we will probably not put much effort into balancing it.  We do not design anything with the assumption you will have additional party members.

[Karkarov]

 

@Sacred_Path: trying a bit too hard to be edgy, methinks.

In what world is it edgy to dislike PS:T ?

 

The world called the PE Forums.  Trust me you aren't the only person who doesn't think it is all that good.  In fact I think it is the worst Inifinity Engine game by far, it was form over function and style over substance in the worst way.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Great to hear that, Josh!

Having played NWN2 with just one character several times, I know the challenges ahead, but it's also a great way of knowing that character's strengths and limitations.  I just read your comment in another thread about each character having an important role in a party, presumably synergetically, so I guess it will be uphill battles on the horizon for any solo character, but that's good in so many ways, as long as it's not totally impossible - a big wall of dejection and resignation.   

Edited November 7, 2013 by IndiraLightfoot

[Tamerlane]

Someone in the market square whining about trees for several pages worth of monologue is pretty banal IMO. Avoiding things like that is what seperates an accomplished writer/ team of writers from your average blogger.

 

 

Hey, woah, Mourns for Trees was cool, man. I mean, it probably helps my opinion of him a lot that I'm a bit of a silviculture dude myself, but still.

 

If you want to complain about the dialogue of a character in PST, how about Ebb Creekknees and Candrian? Pages and pages of "so this is the planes, guys".

 

[PrimeJunta]

To be fair, Ebb's sole function was to be an infodump for players unfamiliar with the setting though. But admittedly not the highest point in that game's writing.

[lolaldanee]

what the? the whole quest around the tree guy is one of the most memorable quests in all of Torment

[Oner]

This is really the sort of thing I mean.  I've seen many intelligent, enthusiastic people attempt to play AD&D games and become mired for reasons very, very similar to those experienced by your grandfather.  People who came into the IE games with an extensive knowledge of AD&D were at a big advantage because the IE games often don't give prominent feedback on a lot of these issues.

"THACO? What's a THACO? The Mexican food? What has that got to do with a dungeon crawler?"

"WHAT DOES 3 AC MEEEAAAAAN!"

Some choice quotes from my first try of IWD. Though I was like 11 at the time.

[Malekith]

I'll be able to put the .pdf on my website in a few weeks.  I'm actually surprised more photos weren't taken at the event.  There was a lot of new artwork in the presentation (e.g. two companion portraits).

Which is?

[Tamerlane]

To be fair, Ebb's sole function was to be an infodump for players unfamiliar with the setting though. But admittedly not the highest point in that game's writing.

Oh, totally. But between him and Candrian (a character with a lot less personality and charm than Ebb), anyone who wants to learn about the setting is in for a long ****ing talk.

[Lephys]

Welp, the game's made for readers, which can only mean it's text-based now. You'll literally "read" your surroundings, because the forests will be built from ANSI characters.

 

Totally launching a giant hate campaign against the game now. THANKS, ASSUMPTION! *high fives Assumption*

 

[Messier-31]

Welp, the game's made for readers, which can only mean it's text-based now. You'll literally "read" your surroundings, because the forests will be built from ANSI characters.

 

Finally, true OLD-SCHOOL CRPG... the real deal, not some shanenigans.