Option to disable level cap?

[Nirgal]

I know it's necessary for balance, but some of us don't care that much about balance. and not having it, can also allow players to have a way  to reduce the difficulty of the game in a way that is much more satisfying than to  simply manually change it.

 

You would also have to have  system that would allow you to increase the power of the player and his companions withouth introducing new habilities as you can only plan to introduce new habilities up to a certain level. For a warrior that would be easy since all you have to do is increase damage or resistance. For a wizard it could be to increase the frequency of spells or to increase their effectiveness or accuracy.

[Chrononaut]

Just wait for a mod

[Nirgal]

I assume it's a popular enough feature for obsidian to consider putting it in the original game.

[Chrononaut]

I assume it's a popular enough feature for obsidian to consider putting it in the original game.

popular =/= good design

[Stun]

Neither do arbitrary power ceilings, but most devs absolutely love 'balancing' their games with them anyway.

[Greensleeve]

Well, as far as I know, the level cap of the game will not be a hard one, but a soft one. In other words, your level will be limited by the amount of experience points in the game, not by some arbitrary numerical level. 

[Chrononaut]

Neither do arbitrary power ceilings, but most devs absolutely love 'balancing' their games with them anyway.

Please explain how a level-cap is bad design. They exist to ensure the player does not hugely overlevel the content, this is bad?

[Stun]

The concept isn't bad in and of itself. It serves its purpose. And can be done well. But there are a *ton* of better ways to prevent flagrant, out-of-control "overleveling", without resorting to the lazy, hamfisted design of: "Hey, you just reached 20th level. And the Gods have decreed that this is it. No going higher because.... Well, because our game testers have determined that if we let you get to level 21 <shudder!>, you will not be able to experience the challenge that WE wish for you to have."

 

The *ideal* way to handle level caps is to do them "half-way", or "soft". For example, they could make make it so that your fighter receives his final special talent/skill/ability at level 20, but he can still continue advancing and receive more health/stamina and do more damage per swing with subsequent level ups.

 

 

The inherant flaw in a level cap (especially in a non-linear, combat-centric game with exploration,) is that once you reach the cap, you've just eliminated 1 specific motivation to continue playing. Devs then have to substitute another motivation to take its place. And usually they choose to use loot as the new motivator. So then you end up with an ever increasing Monty Haul campaign post-cap, which can ruin an otherwise good game. (example: BG2, Throne of Bhaal)

Edited August 16, 2013 by Stun

[Nirgal]

 

I assume it's a popular enough feature for obsidian to consider putting it in the original game.

popular =/= good design

 

I'm asking for a choice. Not for the game to be balanced around it.

[Sabotin]

I'm guessing it's more of a question of how far a class is implemented than an artificial cap. I'd also say it depends on where it is relative to the game. If I reach max level at 2/3 or so then it's an issue. If I just barely reach max level at the very end or not at all then I don't see any reasons for developing further than needed.

[Chrononaut]

 

 

I assume it's a popular enough feature for obsidian to consider putting it in the original game.

popular =/= good design

 

I'm asking for a choice. Not for the game to be balanced around it.

 

Then wait for a mod. There's no reason that the game should officially support what amounts to cheating.

[Nirgal]

 

 

 

I assume it's a popular enough feature for obsidian to consider putting it in the original game.

popular =/= good design

 

I'm asking for a choice. Not for the game to be balanced around it.

 

Then wait for a mod. There's no reason that the game should officially support what amounts to cheating.

 

 

I don't see it as cheating. I would be earning that experience fairly, I would just be able to accumulate more of it. Besides, even if it was cheating, when has cheating been a concern in a single player game?

 

Anway, for me it's simply a more specific and satisfying way of adjusting games difficulty. I could simply lower the difficulty level if I wanted an easier game. But the prospects of starting a game being quite defendless and over time developing in to an overpowered fiend is quite attractive to me. Whey would the game not support that if there's a chance? I could wait for a mod, but that would involve waiting which I prefer not do. And I also would like to see how obsidian would develope a system that would allow me to do that.

[LadyCrimson]

If no level cap was actually part of the developer's game design, I'd be fine with that. If it's not, then I prefer such things to be in the form of a mod. I see no reason to have it as an included option, as it's not really a difficulty option, but a personal power-gaming and/or continuation-motivation aspect. I doubt the EZ difficulty would equal railroading over everything at clvl1, and I also rather doubt the game will be so long as to make whatever the "soft cap" it will come with feel overly restrictive.

 

I've had the impression that Obsidian doesn't generally favor "overpowered, hooha" balancing in their game designs, not their general style, but I could be wrong.

 

Assuming it's something that can be done with a mod (not hard coded or whatever the term may be), I'm sure it's one of the first mods that would show up as they're typically simple things to do.

[Lephys]

Unless there's infinite experience to be gained, the level's capped no matter what. So, even if there was a hard cap, as long as it's in line with the amount of finite experience, everything's golden. Or, to put it another way, if toggling the cap off allowed you to reach level 21 instead of 20, and then there was no more experience to be had, then there's hardly an issue of how many levels they're depriving you of advancing by capping it.

 

So, when it comes to wanting to toggle something off so that you can continue leveling, the question starts shifting over into "should there be infinite XP to gain, or shouldn't there?" before it falls on "should we not be prevented from theoretically infinite or significantly more numerous levels?"

 

Seems like they were already thinking soft cap, before this discussion even began, so that's pretty good news. I do think that soft-capping is the way to go. It just kinda renders hard caps almost pointless/redundant.

[LadyCrimson]

I'd still be interested in a RPG that had no "chr. levels" at all ... where half the motivation does not come from watching an xp bar increase. You'd still have skills to improve/acquire, things to craft, item upgrades, quests to do etc. just that the xp/chr. lvl isn't what dictates when you can do/increase those things. Something else does.

 

eg, I'd like another type of carrot. That there will be a carrot, or multiple carrots, seems unavoidable, but another flavor would be nice. I don't really know how to go about it, however.

[kgambit]

Unless there's infinite experience to be gained, the level's capped no matter what. So, even if there was a hard cap, as long as it's in line with the amount of finite experience, everything's golden. Or, to put it another way, if toggling the cap off allowed you to reach level 21 instead of 20, and then there was no more experience to be had, then there's hardly an issue of how many levels they're depriving you of advancing by capping it.

 

So, when it comes to wanting to toggle something off so that you can continue leveling, the question starts shifting over into "should there be infinite XP to gain, or shouldn't there?" before it falls on "should we not be prevented from theoretically infinite or significantly more numerous levels?"

 

Seems like they were already thinking soft cap, before this discussion even began, so that's pretty good news. I do think that soft-capping is the way to go. It just kinda renders hard caps almost pointless/redundant.

 

Exactly.  My understanding is that grinding for combat xp isn't possible.  Unless the game sets a cap level at a significantly reduced fraction of the maximum available xp an xp cap shouldn't be a problem. 

[Osvir]

Simple.

P:E has 12 levels. To get enough experience to hit level 13 you have to kill all NPC's, all Mobs, do all quests in the game that you can do.

Pretty much make the world empty of everything except the last boss.

Done

To be able to hit Level 13, above the presented Level cap, there needs to be enough content in the game to allow you to do so.

If you are an OCD person who does everything in the game to get as much experience as possible, then you hit Level 12. What's next? How do you attain more experience? Content. That would mean Obsidian would have to spend more resources. Time+Money in other words.

This is important because, if there is no more physical experience to gain when you get level 12 (Because you know, you've done everything there is to do). How do you expect to gain more when there is no more? In that way, it would be impossible to get to Level 13.

"Hey I did all the 10 quests and stuff and I am level 12 now. Why can't I get to level 13?" is what I think this thread sounds like to be honest. My answer is "Because you bloody ate the whole damn cake. There's nothing left of it".

EDIT: However, if I am allowed to get to Level 12 and there is still content left in the game, then I might question it a little bit if I can't get to level 13-14 or if it "hard caps" on me a la "No more for you". Stun got it right imo btw, give +1 damage and maybe some Health/Stamina or something. Nothing really fancy but just a little bit "more" of some basic statistics and/or dice roll initiatives or something. Making the characters slightly stronger but not overly too strong.

Edited August 17, 2013 by Osvir

[Lephys]

Exactly.  My understanding is that grinding for combat xp isn't possible.  Unless the game sets a cap level at a significantly reduced fraction of the maximum available xp an xp cap shouldn't be a problem. 

Yup yup. There could very well still be plenty of optional content to do to advance your characters in many ways other than purely by XP/level increases (legendary equipment, stronghold development, etc.). But the XP and levels will be pretty well wrangled.

 

Methinks even a mod to "allow cap-less leveling" would also need to introduce the availability of more XP-granting content.

[LadyCrimson]

This type of discussion always makes me want that final game in my grubby little hands more than ever, so I can finally see what their plan really is/what it'll be like ... and then analyze it to death. And I mean that in the positive, obsessive play-testing sort of way.

[Stun]

I'd still be interested in a RPG that had no "chr. levels" at all ... where half the motivation does not come from watching an xp bar increase. You'd still have skills to improve/acquire, things to craft, item upgrades, quests to do etc. just that the xp/chr. lvl isn't what dictates when you can do/increase those things. Something else does.

 

eg, I'd like another type of carrot. That there will be a carrot, or multiple carrots, seems unavoidable, but another flavor would be nice. I don't really know how to go about it, however.

You'd go about it the way the Grand Theft Auto games do it.

 

Those aren't RPGs, however.

 

 

Edit: Or you could do it the way Skyrim does it with the individual Skill advancements, and then just eliminate the over-all character leveling... but then you'd have to find another way to give the player character health/stamina increases.

Edited August 17, 2013 by Stun

[Lephys]

^ The non-leveling approach is basically the Zelda approach: Link gets better and better as you progress through the game, but he never actually levels.

 

Just two different ways of handling the same idea of progression over time, each complete with their own pros and cons.

 

The Zelda approach is typically not used in true RPGs. Just games with sort of RPG-like characteristics and such. But, it would be interesting to see a full-on RPG designed with that kind of progression, devoid of a level system, from a "I haven't seen this before and wonder what will happen" perspective.

 

(EDIT: I say "never"; The 2nd Zelda game, for NES -- The Legend of Zelda: The Adventures of Link -- actually DID use an XP/leveling system. 8P)

Edited August 17, 2013 by Lephys

[Wolfenbarg]

Level caps tend to be more of a problem in massive or open world games where power gaming would put you so far above any challenges presented that they'd hardly be worth your time. This isn't going to be such a game. There's no way they could make the game so large that you'd be over powered by doing everything. 

[nikolokolus]

Since it doesn't appear that you'll be able to kill mobs, break open their bones and suck out the sweet, sweet "XPs," but instead will get experience points for overcoming the defined obstacles in the game (by stealth, by word, or by blade) we already know then that there's an implied level cap, because there is a finite amount of experience points to be earned in the game.

[ultimis]

There can be game world reasons that a level cap is implemented. Such as level 20 is the highest amount of potential a human/mortal can achieve. To progress beyond that requires a divine connection or other worldly power. This allows games developed in the project eternity world to separate normal adventures and legendary adventures. This also allows them to tailor legendary skills/feats that can only be accessed after they have transcended their mortal limits.

Edited August 18, 2013 by ultimis

[Nirgal]

There can be game world reasons that a level cap is implemented. Such as level 20 is the highest amount of potential a human/mortal can achieve. To progress beyond that requires a divine connection or other worldly power. This allows games developed in the project eternity world to separate normal adventures and legendary adventures. This also allows them to tailor legendary skills/feats that can only be accessed after they have transcended their mortal limits.

Until the expansion at least...