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Well, levels have to play some part in it or else they fail to justify their own existance. Realistically, if you go into the last dungeon having done as many quests as possible you would expect to have an easier time than if you just speed run through. If the cap or hard level scaling means it makes no difference, then you're not really utilising the mechanic.

 

...are you, Dragon Age?

 

*Ahem* Anyway, while skill - or perhaps more accurately 'tactics' - should be the dominant factor in determining success, there will still be a level of discrepancy based upon your level. How noticible this is comes down to how well they manage whatever form of level scaling they use in P:E.

 

A level cap remains a possibility, of course, but the general theme of the gameplay described so far suggests to me that opportunities for grinding are going to be quite limited in P:E, which lessons the scope of level disparity for the endgame. Consequently, the hard cap wouldn't appear to be as necessary as in other rpgs.

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Well, levels have to play some part in it or else they fail to justify their own existance. Realistically, if you go into the last dungeon having done as many quests as possible you would expect to have an easier time than if you just speed run through. If the cap or hard level scaling means it makes no difference, then you're not really utilising the mechanic.

For what it's worth, there are ways aside from providing level ups by which doing more quests can grant you an easier time of things. Quests could provide unique equipment, or narrative-specific tools/information that allow a different approach to the final portion of the game, or money (with which to buy a plethora of useful things you couldn't have otherwise afforded), or they could even provide direct stat/skill/ability ups, separate from leveling.

 

Or, to put it another way, if the level ups are the only thing that makes a difference, then you're not really utilizing plenty of other mechanics. :)

Edited by Lephys

Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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For what it's worth, there are ways aside from providing level ups by which doing more quests can grant you an easier time of things. Quests could provide unique equipment, or narrative-specific tools/information that allow a different approach to the final portion of the game, or money (with which to buy a plethora of useful things you couldn't have otherwise afforded), or they could even provide direct stat/skill/ability ups, separate from leveling.

 

Or, to put it another way, if the level ups are the only thing that makes a difference, then you're not really utilizing plenty of other mechanics. :)

 

Also true. Levelling up is but one way in which you can make things easier for yourself. Good gear and good party balance are two obvious others.

 

Again, the goal for that final dungeon should be that it is easier with an optimal party than a sub-optimal party. However tactics should remain the most significant factor to at least the level where an optimal party running scripted should fail and a sub-optimal party (but not obtusely sub-optimal) should be able to do it in skilled hands.

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For what it's worth, there are ways aside from providing level ups by which doing more quests can grant you an easier time of things. Quests could provide unique equipment, or narrative-specific tools/information that allow a different approach to the final portion of the game, or money (with which to buy a plethora of useful things you couldn't have otherwise afforded), or they could even provide direct stat/skill/ability ups, separate from leveling.

If doing quests provides skill, stat and ability increases, then by definition, questing is leveling you up, it's just not using an EXP system to do it.

 

That's how Skyrim does it, btw. You don't get EXP for doing quests in that game. You get everything else instead.

 

 

 

 

 

Or, to put it another way, if the level ups are the only thing that makes a difference, then you're not really utilizing plenty of other mechanics. :)

That's not necessarily true. It Depends on what leveling in a given RPG entails. Leveling could very well be the only thing that matters, IF enough of the game's mechanics are tied to it, which is usually the case.

 

For example:

 

-Information/secrets about the final boss' weakness (read: how to beat him the 'easy' way) may be only acquired via successful interrogation of the Boss's henchmen, which a lower level character may fail at, due to his speech skills not being high enough, because he didn't advance enough levels to GET it high enough.

 

-Then there's the notion of using gear to compensate. Frankly, there should be no such thing. Magic items powerful enough to be seen as a viable alternative to Leveling should never EVER just be lying around in a shop to be purchased by a player who did nothing but click the "buy" button. That kind of nonsense can Ruin an RPG faster than anything else. Instead, Such items should be buried deep in the bottom of a long, difficult and deadly dungeon, or guarded by a nasty, high level enemy that an underleveled party shouldn't be able to defeat. Or Hidden in a far away place requiring significant adventure time to get.

 

-Then there's "sneaking"/"stealthing" your way past all challenges. I'm all for that. But IMO, stealth is a mechanic that should get the love and respect it deserves. The skill itself should be difficult to master, and success should very much be based on how many level up points you put in it. In other words, The higher the level, the more successful you should be at it.

Edited by Stun
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It's an RPG. One of the core attractions of an RPG is the leveling. The gradual drip of additional skills, talents and hardiness that hooks us. I'm not sure where it said anything else on the box, but this is pretty much what I bought in to.

 

Lack of level cap means the entire game will be tied to kit. Which is a horrific idea. May as well switch our minds off and plug away at yet-another-call-of-grinding-warfare..... 

 

Level cap all the way. 

Agree totally.  And, as with most games these days, a mod is bound to be released to bypass/remove the cap regardless, hence everyone is happy.

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If doing quests provides skill, stat and ability increases, then by definition, questing is leveling you up, it's just not using an EXP system to do it.

 

That's how Skyrim does it, btw. You don't get EXP for doing quests in that game. You get everything else instead.

While I get what you mean, if you're really going to go so far as to pull the "by definition" approach, then it's really not, since "leveling up" refers to the grouping of most character improvements into collective levels, achieved at incremental XP milestones. Sure, the same effects are accomplished without specifically grouping everything into levels, but that kind of runs parallel to my point.

 

That's not necessarily true. It Depends on what leveling in a given RPG entails. Leveling could very well be the only thing that matters, IF enough of the game's mechanics are tied to it, which is usually the case.

Very valid points, but there's a difference between something being "tied to" the level system, and leveling, itself, being the only thing that gets you anywhere. Yes, you need to level to acquire a higher-than-you-started-with Speech skill to be able to interrogate someone. And yet, leveling doesn't grant you the info. Interrogating the guy is still a completely separate choice/event. Also, interrogating the guy might give you info that directly benefits your ability to handle a situation, rather than giving you info that helps you level up more so that the situation becomes easier as a consequence of leveling once more. That is my point.

 

If the direct effects of leveling up are the only thing affecting your ability to tackle things in the game, then the game's really not taking advantage of a very wide variety of mechanics and factors.

 

And, for what it's worth, I don't think gear (or anything else) should be thought of as compensating for leveling, but it should effect things in tandem with it. Otherwise, what's the point in spending all that effort finding/restoring some legendary/unique armor/weapon/artifact, if it doesn't actually provide its own edge and "rewards" (for lack of a better word) regardless of whether or not you maxed out your level or stop a level or two short?

 

Essentially, if you're max level AND go as out-of-your way as you can to get awesome things, you should be better off than if you JUST maxed out your level, or JUST obtained awesome things.

 

I think if gear and such things become an alternative to leveling improvement (especially from a design standpoint), the game suffers a bit.

Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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I don't understand what the problem with this would be. It's a request for an *option*, not a mandatory thing. Most people would probably keep it on, at least during the first play through.

There is a portion of people who don't care so much about the "challenge" or the "strategy" and just want to have fun while experiencing the story, the characters, the locations, etc. Those people don't mind if the balance is off when they turn off the level cap, because that's not something that is important to them. For people to whom that aspect of the game is important, just leave the level cap on and play it that way. Why should either group have a problem with the manner that the other group plays?

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Is it even known that we'll be able to hit the maximum level while playing the non-modded version of P:E?  Perhaps the maximum will be set at 15 but there will only be enough quests to enable us to reach level 13 or 14.

http://cbrrescue.org/

 

Go afield with a good attitude, with respect for the wildlife you hunt and for the forests and fields in which you walk. Immerse yourself in the outdoors experience. It will cleanse your soul and make you a better person.----Fred Bear

 

http://michigansaf.org/

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I don't understand what the problem with this would be. It's a request for an *option*, not a mandatory thing. Most people would probably keep it on, at least during the first play through.

 

There is a portion of people who don't care so much about the "challenge" or the "strategy" and just want to have fun while experiencing the story, the characters, the locations, etc. Those people don't mind if the balance is off when they turn off the level cap, because that's not something that is important to them. For people to whom that aspect of the game is important, just leave the level cap on and play it that way. Why should either group have a problem with the manner that the other group plays?

 

You're correct, it's pretty obvious you don't see what the problem is. 

 

Please try harder. 

. Well I was involved anyway. The dude who can't dance. 
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I don't understand what the problem with this would be. It's a request for an *option*, not a mandatory thing. Most people would probably keep it on, at least during the first play through.

 

There is a portion of people who don't care so much about the "challenge" or the "strategy" and just want to have fun while experiencing the story, the characters, the locations, etc. Those people don't mind if the balance is off when they turn off the level cap, because that's not something that is important to them. For people to whom that aspect of the game is important, just leave the level cap on and play it that way. Why should either group have a problem with the manner that the other group plays?

...put it this way, lad; why waste the resources it'd take ta make 'er an option when theys can be used elsewhere...;)

 

 

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I don't understand what the problem with this would be. It's a request for an *option*, not a mandatory thing. Most people would probably keep it on, at least during the first play through.

If there's only a finite amount of XP in the game to be had, and that acts as the sort of cap (and/or an actual hard cap is placed very, very close to that), then toggling a simple option to "disable" this cap would generate absolutely no effect. The only way in which to "disable" it at that point would be to "disable" the finiteness of XP. Meaning extra work in designing extra means of granting XP, at the very least.

Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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